HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[VanIslander]

 

[Vilica]

McNeil is an interesting one. He came up when I was looking at Durnan, and the fact that Montreal's even strength defense didn't really change with who was in goal from the war to the end of the dynasty.

	GA/G	ESGA	PPGA	SHGA
44-45 to 49-50	2.394	1.871	0.503	0.020
50-51 to 54-55	2.269	1.657	0.554	0.057
55-56 to 59-60	2.229	1.649	0.494	0.086
62-63 to 66-67	2.560	1.900	0.577	0.083

All of these are 350 game samples. In the first, Durnan played 333, Paul Bibeault 10, Gerry McNeil 8. In the second, McNeil played 259, Plante 72, Hodge 14, plus 5 appearances by others. In the third, Plante played 318, Hodge 15, McNeil 9, and Perreault 6. In the fourth, Hodge 178, Worsley 96, Plante 56, Maniago 14, Vachon 18.

The 50-51 and 51-52 seasons compared to 49-50 are quite interesting. Montreal gave up 30 more goals, but really that's almost all due to power play goals against.

	GA	GA/G	ESGA	PPGA	SHGA	PG	PG	PG
49-50	150	2.143	125	25	0	1.786	0.357	0.000
50-51	184	2.629	132	48	4	1.886	0.686	0.057
51-52	164	2.343	125	34	5	1.786	0.486	0.071

Boston went 7->8->3, Chicago went 3->5->5, Detroit went 3->16->10, New York went 5->7->5, Toronto went 5->12->11 in terms of power play numbers over these three seasons. You can also see by the averages that 49-50 was an outlier season below in terms of power play goals allowed, much like 50-51 was an outlier above - if you combine both seasons, they're basically average.

Over the 3 years, there was essentially zero change in the number of even strength goals against shifting from Durnan to McNeil, and the dynasty teams anchored by Plante didn't improve much on McNeil's numbers either. I do think McNeil playing for Montreal in the peak of the LOFT era in the early 50s probably boosts his numbers a bit, he had to deal with peak Howe in Detroit but not much else. Not having to play against Montreal probably affects his stats about the same, as well.

 

[VanIslander]

1. The above reads like the average baseball fan;
2.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

This doesn't excuse the lack of performance, but it's been reported that Lindbergh was struggling because of particularly severe hazing by his Flyers teammates.

Jeff Klein and Karl-Eric Reif talked about this in the 2001 edition of The Hockey Compendium. What his teammates did to him was shameful. No idea if it was intended to be a routine hazing and it got out of hand, or if there was genuine malice.

 

[VanIslander]

There should be some clear guard rails:

Roy or Hasek outside the top 5 is flushed.

Chechmanek on a list allowed - because he has a soft spot for him. (Everyone deserves a mulligan.)

Less than 5 non-NHLers automatically waste baskets a list.

Nix any list that doesn't have a 2024 player and a pre-1924 player.

We're done here.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Chechmanek on a list allowed - because he has a soft spot for him. (Everyone deserves a mulligan.)

Who is the "he" here...?

 

[VanIslander]

Who is the "he" here...?

He knows. He tried to compare his man crush to an all-time great recently. Look it up. The threads remain.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ok, in case it's me, I think Cechmanek is one of the worst goalies I have ever seen...which I think folks know, but just in case it isn't clear.

 

[MXD]

There should be some clear guard rails:

Roy or Hasek outside the top 5 is flushed.

Chechmanek on a list allowed - because he has a soft spot for him. (Everyone deserves a mulligan.)

Less than 5 non-NHLers automatically waste baskets a list.

Nix any list that doesn't have a 2024 player and a pre-1924 player.

We're done here.

The bolded is absolutely preposterous, and I'm being kind here (especially if non-NHL'er is defined as "Never played in the NHL").

@Dr John Carlson , please confirm or infirm.

 

[rmartin65]

The bolded is absolutely preposterous, and I'm being kind here.

I mean… I think tossing that ballot is a little strong, but you don’t think there are 5 non-NHL goalies in the top 80?

 

[VanIslander]

If you think 56 of the top 60 goalies of all time were NHLers then you are blind to the rest of hockey history. You put one Soviet, one Czechoslovakian, one pre-NHLer and call it a day?

 

[MXD]

I mean… I think tossing that ballot is a little strong, but you don’t think there are 5 non-NHL goalies in the top 80?

If Non-NHL'er is defined as "Didn't spent the bulk of his career in the NHL"? Of course, there's at least five.


If Non-NHL'er is defined as "Never having played in the NHL"? On top of my head, 100% making my list, only three, with a very probable fourth. I'm not exactly willing to lock in the likes of Paddy Moran or Riley Hern or Viktor Konovalenko (and, frankly, I don't think anyone should... even if they may ultimately be deserving).

 

[jigglysquishy]

Tretiak and Holocek should be stone cold locks. It just depends on how you consider a cup of coffee in the NHL or guys who played in the NHA. There's a few guys I don't associate with the NHL but did end playing there (Lehman)

Percy LeSueur never played an NHL game, but played several NHA games. He's a lock to me.

I have Riley Hern, Paddy Moran, Vladimir Dzurilla, all comfortably on my list and they never played an NHL game. A few more non NHLers are near the end of my list.

I see it really as three necessities, but more like six.

 

[VanIslander]

If Non-NHL'er is defined as "Never having played in the NHL"? On top of my head, 100% making my list, only three, with a very probable fourth.

The Stanley Cup was won for a quarter century before the NHL was born.

The Iron Curtain prevented a lot of talent from going to the NHL.

 

[MXD]

Tretiak and Holocek should be stone cold locks. It just depends on how you consider a cup of coffee in the NHL or guys who played in the NHA. There's a few guys I don't associate with the NHL but did end playing there (Lehman)

Percy LeSueur never played an NHL game, but played several NHA games. He's a lock to me.

I have Riley Hern, Paddy Moran, Vladimir Dzurilla, all comfortably on my list and they never played an NHL game. A few more non NHLers are near the end of my list.

I see it really as three necessities, but more like six.

This is why I came up with the "no qualifier" comment. Of course, Hap Holmes and Hugh Lehman are making it -- probably as top halfers here -- but the idea of making the likes of Dzurilla and/or Hern must-haves is a bit asinine to me, even if I may totally end up ranking them.

 

[VanIslander]

So you do have at least 5 non-NHLers after all.

Kralik was a silver medalist at the 1984 Olympics, in the Canada Cup before that, two times world championship 1st team all star (before the Iron Curtain came down, back when world championships meant something).

 

[rmartin65]

If Non-NHL'er is defined as "Didn't spent the bulk of his career in the NHL"? Of course, there's at least five.

Nah, I guessed you were referring to players like those below-

If Non-NHL'er is defined as "Never having played in the NHL"? On top of my head, 100% making my list, only three, with a very probable fourth. I'm not exactly willing to lock in the likes of Paddy Moran or Riley Hern or Viktor Konovalenko (and, frankly, I don't think anyone should... even if they may ultimately be deserving).

I'll say it, I think Moran should be seen as a lock. The amount and quality of praise he gets in the papers is astounding relative to the goalies who came before him and played alongside him. He was, in my opinion, the first real star goalie.

The quantity and quality of the contemporary praise for Moran is even more impressive considering we are largely working from opposing city papers (at least prior to 1910)- namely, publications from Montreal and Ottawa. Home papers routinely pumped up the home players, so it is very striking to see such near-universal acclaim for a non-home player.

Furthermore, Moran didn't have the benefit of playing on a dynasty like his contemporaries. He didn't get to play on a stacked teams nearly as often as many of the other goalies we are going to talk about during this project. He was on a team that was regularly middle of the pack (or worse) and still was talked about as the best goalie around. That's Price-esque.

Hern makes my list too, but I'm not quite sure where yet.

Konovalenko... maybe? But probably not.

Tretiak and Holocek should be stone cold locks.

For sure

Percy LeSueur never played an NHL game, but played several NHA games. He's a lock to me.

Same

I have Riley Hern, Paddy Moran, Vladimir Dzurilla, all comfortably on my list and they never played an NHL game. A few more non NHLers are near the end of my list.

I see it really as three necessities, but more like six.

I'm not going to say it is my life's purpose to convince you (and everyone else!) that Paddy Moran should be seen as a necessity, but I am going to put a lot of effort on that subject over the next couple of weeks.

If we are going to separate player from team (which I think we should- those are some of the best parts of the pre-consolidation project, in my opinion), there is nothing to suggest that Moran shouldn't be at least on LeSueur's level.

EDIT: For what it is worth (and mostly so I don't lose it)- Russell Bowie, the premier goal-scorer of the CAHL and ECAHA, reportedly claimed that Paddy Moran was the best goalie he ever faced (to include players like Riley Hern, Percy LeSueur, Billy Nicholson, etc) in a 5 April 1934 piece in the Montreal Gazette. It's a small anecdotal piece, but I think it is a valuable one considering it comes from a player who actually played against these guys and knew a thing or two about scoring goals. Plus, Bowie wasn't a teammate of Moran's, so this isn't a player pumping up a teammate.

 

[Professor What]

I'm not going to say it is my life's purpose to convince you (and everyone else!) that Paddy Moran should be seen as a necessity, but I am going to put a lot of effort on that subject over the next couple of weeks.

If we are going to separate player from team (which I think we should- those are some of the best parts of the pre-consolidation project, in my opinion), there is nothing to suggest that Moran shouldn't be at least on LeSueur's level.

EDIT: For what it is worth (and mostly so I don't lose it)- Russell Bowie, the premier goal-scorer of the CAHL and ECAHA, reportedly claimed that Paddy Moran was the best goalie he ever faced (to include players like Riley Hern, Percy LeSueur, Billy Nicholson, etc) in a 5 April 1934 piece in the Montreal Gazette. It's a small anecdotal piece, but I think it is a valuable one considering it comes from a player who actually played against these guys and knew a thing or two about scoring goals. Plus, Bowie wasn't a teammate of Moran's, so this isn't a player pumping up a teammate.

How high are you pressing for Moran? He's not currently in my top 60, but he's comfortably in my top 80.

I also just realized that I previously overlooked Billy Nicholson. We'll see if he makes my list, but he's got to get consideration, I think.

 

[rmartin65]

How high are you pressing for Moran? He's not currently in my top 60, but he's comfortably in my top 80.

He's easily in my top 60. Probably around 40, I think, but that is just a rough guess from the names I have on the Google doc I'm fiddling with.

I see no reason to put LeSueur in front of him (outside of team success), and LeSueur was 35th on the last goalie project. As far as I am aware, Moran was the more celebrated player during their careers, and even made the HoF before LeSueur (1958 vs 1961).

I'm always open to listening to reasons why I am wrong, however, so if someone feels strongly about it please let me know.

I'm really struggling to actually get my list together, though- I'm trying to look at all these names through the same lenses in an attempt to compare apples-to-apples and to make a list that looks consistent, but so far it has resulted in me just going around in circles. I think the post-2010 goalies are what is giving me the most problems. That and the fact that I feel as though most of the top-tier goalies played on strong teams- where they the reasons those teams were strong? I'm not certain I can make that determination right now, if ever.

I also just realized that I previously overlooked Billy Nicholson. We'll see if he makes my list, but he's got to get consideration, I think.

I like Nicholson. I think he gets overlooked historically because he bounced around so much (7 teams in... 6(?) leagues). He made the really weird all-Canada team in 1903, made a 1907 IPHL all-star teams, was mentioned ahead of Hern and LeSueur in a couple 1908 teams (if I am remembering right), etc.

In terms of contemporaries, I think I have him around Hern's level.

 

[jigglysquishy]

If people haven't read through the voting threads for the 2012 top goalies list I strongly encourage you to do so. There's oodles of good stuff there. Home/Away splits. Quality game ratios. Changes to voting patterns for all-star teams and Vezina. Save percentage by period. EV/PP scoring ratios.

You can glimpse some of these results in the 2023-24 season as it can tell us more about how goalies play in different situations.

Hellebucyk lead all goalies (min. 50 games) in save percentage (.921 to Demko's .918)

If you look at EV sv % only it goes similar, but it shows Hellebucyk was more dominant at even strength than in all conditions.

1. Hellebucyk - 0.933%
2. Daccord - 0.926%
3. Bobrovsky - 0.923%
4. Demko - 0.923%
5. Sorokin - 0.919%

But if you look at PP sv% it goes

1. Talbot - 0.914%
2. Demko - 0.895%
3. Lindgren - 0.894%
4. Luukkonen - 0.892%
5. Oettinger - 0.886%

Huge drop makes sense, right? Hellebucyk is all the way down at 12th at only 0.861%. Despite being the best EV goalie in the league as measured by SV% this year, he was middle of the pack amongst starters on the PK. The Jets were the 6th least penalized team during the season (4:37/game), so his noted statistical weakness is masked.

You can see the impact of this in the playoffs. Most teams saw far fewer penalties against per game, but the Jets only saw a small improvement. Hellebucyk fell to an astounding 0.769% on the PK. The Jets were shorthanded 4:16/game, 6th fewest in the league.

He still got scored on a lot in the playoffs (I'll post more about this later), but with the relative change in time on the PK the Jets' weak PK (and Hellebucyk's resultant PK SV%) had a much larger impact in the playoffs than in the regular season.

It comes up every few years in a notable way (i.e. Patrick Roy spending a disproportionate time on the PK in the late 90s compared to his peers).


When we discuss goalies I think it's important for us to note that they don't control how often they are on the PK, but the impact to the all strength SV% can be quite considerable.

 

[MadLuke]

Most teams saw far fewer penalties against per game,

With overtime rules that sound a bit surprising. Fewer proportions of shots coming from the PK ? because despite playing in average longer there is not more PK in a playoff games maybe ?

In the regular season, the teams in average 5 (4.96) minutes on the pk per games, in the playoff it was 4.8 minutes per games, less than 10 second of difference. If my excel formula was not wrong.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

When we discuss goalies I think it's important for us to note that they don't control how often they are on the PK, but the impact to the all strength SV% can be quite considerable.

This is a great point. 2007 is a good example - Luongo had a higher save percentage than Brodeur, both at ES and on the PK. But Brodeur faced a lower percentage of shots while his team was shorthanded (which is essentially entirely beyond his control). So Brodeur had a higher save percentage overall, which is misleading.

Bernie Parent is a great example. He already has an excellent save percentage, but he faced (I think) a higher percentage of shots while shorthanded than any other starting goalie. During the late sixties and early/mid seventies, how much closer would he have been to the leaders (Dryden, Bower and Plante) once that gets factored in?

One project I'd like to tackle eventually is a "situation normalized" save percentage, where the ratio of ES to PP shots gets adjusted to the league average. That way, a goalie doesn't get unfairly rewarded (or penalized) for playing in front of an unusually disciplined (or undisciplined) team. It likely won't make any huge changes to any multi-year statistical list, but it could result in a small number of interesting changes in each era.

 

[The Macho King]

If we assume 1893 as our starting point we're at 131 years. You would anticipate representation from every era in a large enough sample (top 15 or top 20). Reasonably, we should expect a post lockout goalie in our top 15, right? Every other era is represented, all the way back to Vezina as an 1880s birth year.

The other positional lists are easy to demonstrate this. Crosby and McDavid for post lockout debut centres (Malkin and MacKinnon aren't far off). Ovechkin and Kucherov for wingers (Kane isn't far off). I guess defensemen don't, but we all expect Makar to be there soon.

Why not goalies? Are we structurally underrating a Price or Lundqvist because of award voting?

This feels like a deliberate attempt to trigger me.

 

[overpass]

Here are a few old newspaper articles about all-time goalies that I've come across.

1. Frank Boucher and Bill Cook rated Terry Sawchuk as the greatest of all time in 1952. Most of the Leafs rated Bill Durnan #1.

Boucher picks Sawchuk

"I know that the real test of greatness is achievement over a long period of years," said Boucher. "Sawchuk is just a kid. But what a kid! Rookie of the year in every pro league he ever played in. And now, in his second year with the Red Wings, greater than ever."

Boucher made it plain he wasn't forgetting the old-timers when he rated Terry so highly.

"I mean fellows like Hughie Lehman, George Hainsworth, Georges Vezina, Roy Worters, and Alex Connell right up to the more modern players such as Chuck Gardner, Davey Kerr, Bill Durnan, Frankie Brimsek, and Chuck Rayner."

Cook agrees, Leafs disagree.

Frank Boucher touched off a discussion on goal-tending greats the other day when he called Detroit's Terry Sawchuk the greatest net-minder he had ever seen.

The Leafs aren't taking anything away from Sawchuk, but a majority of them give the nod to Bill Durnan.

Max Bentley placed Durnan as tops with Turk Broda close enough to make it a near toss-up. Ted Kennedy also went for Durnan although he admitted Broda's playoff goal-tending was out of this world.

Fernie Flaman, Harry Watson, Gus Mortson, and Bill Juzda all nodded in the direction of Durnan, but Happy Day went for Frank Brimsek.

Bill Cook...goes along with his boss Boucher. "I'll have to go along with Sawchuk. He's wonderful--a cinch to become the greatest of all time if he isn't the greatest right at the moment."

When asked for his all-time team in 1962, Boucher changed his mind and picked Charlie Gardiner in goal .Although all his picks were retired players of his era, so maybe he was excluding active players like Sawchuk. He also picked Jacques Plante as the best goalie playing today, Jean Beliveau as the best player, and Doug Harvey as the best defender.

2. Jim Coleman in 1981 discusses Howie Meeker's comments about goaltending.

Howie Meeker had recently commented on a national hockey telecast that he had never seen as much poor goaltending in the NHL as he had seen this season. Columnist Jim Coleman, who had watched the NHL since the 1930s, disagreed and blamed the poor defence play.

Coleman: It's true that there may be some mediocre goalies among the 55 or so who have been employed by the 21 teams this season, but at least eight of them are superb performers--worthy of comparison with the very best from the storied past.

Standing far above reproach from any critical oldtimer are Philadelphia's Pete Peeters, Mario Lessard of Los Angeles, Mike Liut of St Louis, Don Beaupre of Minnesota, Buffalo's pair of Bob Sauve and Don Edwards, and the New York Islanders' pair of Chico Resch and Billy Smith. These eight (and there may be others toiling in obscurity in the league) certainly deserve to be ranked with Jacques Plante, Glenn Hall, Terry Sawchuk, Johnny Bower, Gump Worsley, and Eddie Giacomin of the old six-team NHL which operated until the spring on 1967.

Mr Meeker's opinion to the contrary, goaltending isn't the conspicuous weakness of the NHL today. The real problem for all but seven or eight of the 21 teams is their lack of genuinely defensive-minded defencemen and back-checking forwards.

The name of this season's game in the NHL is Attack! God help the poor unprotected goalies!

This column has listed eight goaltenders who probably are as competent as their predecessors in the old six-team NHL. But there are some serious questions concerning the comparative quality of the defencemen in 1980 and the defencemen of the previous era.

There are 140 defencemen playing in the NHL this season. You are invited to compile a list of 10 or 12 who deserve consideration for an all-star team. Who is there after you have listed Larry Robinson, Borje Salming, Denis Potvin, Ray Bourque, Stefan Persson, Bill Hajt, and those aging veterans Brad Park, Serge Savard, and Guy Lapointe?

The horrible truth is that, today, there simply aren't enough good defencemen to stock a 21 team league. There aren't even as many good ones as there were in 1966 when the six-team league had a young Serge Savard, Bobby Orr, Jacques Laperriere, Ted Harris, Terry Harper, Ted Green, Pierre Pilote, Pat Stapleton, Leo Boivin, a young Carol Vadnais, Harry Howell, Bobby Baun, Tim Horton, Marcel Pronovost, and Allan Stanley.

3. In 1983, Wayne Parrish of the Toronto Star consulted a panel of nine retired goalies to understand why the best goalies are so inconsistent compared to the greats of the past.

a) No defence

Gump Worsley: Bobby Orr hurt the game a lot. Too many defencemen today just take the puck and go. The result is more two and three-on-ones than I've ever seen.

Ed Giacomin: There doesn't seem to be a working agreement between his goaltender and his defence anymore. The result is more easy goals are being scored.

Objectives were redefined. In the past, defencemen, like goalies, were rated on their ability to prevent goals. Now they get bonuses for goals and points scored.

Bernie Parent said it's harder playing goal behind a 20 year old defenceman compared to a 28 year old defenceman.

b) Not enough seasoning in the minors. Marcel Pelletier, Glenn Hall, Giacomin, Worsley, and Parent all mentioned that in the past, goalies didn't make it to the NHL until they had several minor league seasons to learn their craft.

c) The two-goalie system. Roger Crozier, Hall, Giacomin, and Parent all said something had been lost by going to two goalies instead of one.

d) Coaching. Eddie Johnston said the number one problem wasn't goalies, but coaches who had no idea what to do with them. He said it was no coincidence that Pete Peeters (having a great season in Boston) was coached by Gerry Cheevers. Other than Cheevers' Bruins and Johnston's Penguins, the only NHL teams with a former goalie on staff were the Rangers with Wayne Thomas and the Flyers with Parent. Others, like Minnesota with Worsley or Toronto with Johnny Bower, had ex-goalies as scouts who would come in periodically to work with the goalies. But many teams didn't consider goalie coaching as a high priority.

Ed Giacomin: "A lot of goalies are ruined by the drills they do."

Worsley and Johnston had each proposed league-wide goalie coaching schemes - Worsley for the OHL and Johnston for the NHL - and there was no interest from the leagues.

e) Masks. Crozier and Pelletier felt goalies got lazy wearing masks.

f) Conclusion - The ideal system, our panel agrees, would be if a team had a No. 1 goalie who played 60 or more games, another who played 20 games in the NHL but spent part of the season getting playing time in the minors, a third who was the No. 1 minor-leaguer plus a journeyman who would back up in the minors. Adopt that format, throw in an obligatory two-year stint in the minors, a goalie coach, and a defensive philosophy, and presto--you'd have a league bulging with Halls, Plantes, and Sawchuks.

4. Dink Carroll in 1985 pointed to the early 1940s as a point when goaltending improved.

Carroll quoted Bill Cook's comments on goaltending many years ago, when he said "any time a forward has only the goaltender to beat, he'll beat him--barring sheer luck." and "Never blame the fellow in the nets when he's beaten that way. Backchecking and defence have to stop most of those goals."

Harry Holmes used to say that a goaltender shouldn't be expected to stop more than one out of 10 shots when he's left alone with the shooter.

Carroll commented that these remarks are not true today, and goalies started to improve in the 1940s with the appearance of netminders like Frank Brimsek. "The tougher the job got -- they were called up on to handle screen shots and deflections -- the better they got. The goaltending started to deteriorate when the league expanded to 21 teams, each carrying three goalies."

 

[overpass]

Here's an French-language article from January 1958 about the ups and downs (les misères et les grandeurs) of Terry Sawchuk.

The headline asks "Would Frank Boucher still say Terry is simply the greatest goaltender in history?" The article doesn't reference Boucher. That suggests to me that Boucher's claim that Sawchuk was the greatest was very well known, enough to casually reference in a headline without explanation. Either because it was a minority opinion, or because it was remarkable for having been made very early in Sawchuk's career.

This is one article among many of the time that, when discussing how difficult the goalie position is to play, references past goalies who struggled with nerves. Sawchuk was just the latest. Bill Durnan and Gerry McNeil left the Canadiens' net in the playoffs with shattered nerves. Frank McCool retired due to ulcers. Frank Brimsek saw the red light of a police car in the street and hysterically screamed "A goal, a goal."

An unnamed Detroit sportswriter was quoted as saying "Will Terry become the greatest goaltender in history again? We believe he never stopped being that." This writer said the trade of Sawchuk from Detroit was the shock that caused Sawchuk's collapse in Boston, and also said that no goalie in the league could match Sawchuk's current performance with the Wings.