GDT: HNIC - Flames vs. Sens

[Lunatik]

Your the one who can't handle someone having a different opinion. The plus minus system is valid if you take into context what happened at the time. Trying to degrade others opinion is your thing.

+/- is never valid, it penalizes every player on the ice when 1 guy makes a mistake (or the opposite on a goal). If he had played every game sure, maybe it holds a tiny bit of water. But maybe look closer at the games in which he is a minus.

-2 vs. Carolina. There was not a single plus player this game.
-2 vs. Florida. He left this game injured and the Flames entire team looked bad the first half of the game.
-2 vs. St. Louis. Another poor team game where not a single player was a plus.

In his other 7 games he was even for 4, -1 for a pair and +1 in the other.

Like I said, it's an extremely useless stat on it's own.

 

[Steven]

Yeah, always love the attitude. It's a legitimate debate right now though, many people would agree with me, many would agree with AF.

Just because a bunch of GMs and players believe it doesn't make it true. I don't use the word "myth" for dramatic effect. The idea of the enforcer has been engrained in the ethos of this game for so long, it just has this positive feedback effect within the league. The players believe it, it's passed on to the next generation of players, and the old generation of players become the GMs that keep that fire burning just a while longer.

Doesn't mean they are right.

And you are starting to see GMs change their ways. You may have noticed that Colton Orr and Frazer McLaren are conspicuously absent from the Leafs roster this year. Nonis must not be too worried about his players being able to stick up to themselves, especially since many other teams are following suit. There's a reason McGrattan has been in the pressbox more than the penalty box this year, and it's not because his play has regressed. There's nobody for him to fight anymore.

There is a lot of truth in this post. Like, a lot. I still think teams need some bigger guys who can scrap and skate in the bottom-6, but McGrattan getting into a scuffle off the faceoff does little in the way of actually "protecting" anyone. The Bolligs of the league who can actually play hockey and drop 'em to stand up for their team mates, they still have a place. The McGrattans who have always been in the game strictly for their face-punching prowess, they're becoming more and more obsolete.

 

[Lunatik]

I should also add, while I think plus-minus is 100% useless when comparing players league wide, it's at least a reasonable talking point when comparing players on the same team. Our best 3 +/- guys are Brodie, Giordano, and Gaudreau. The worst 3 are Setoguchi, Smid and Engelland. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the pattern there.

Not difficult at all. Top 3 all play offensive roles and play with other scoring players in key offensive roles. The bottom 3 play in nonscoring roles in the bottom 6 or on the bottom defense pairing. Amazing how guys playing with scoring players get pluses and those who don't play with offensive players don't

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

Not difficult at all. Top 3 all play offensive roles and play with other scoring players in key offensive roles. The bottom 3 play in nonscoring roles in the bottom 6 or on the bottom defense pairing. Amazing how guys playing with scoring players get pluses and those who don't play with offensive players don't

That is heresy! get you witchcraft outta here!

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

In regards to Seto and Grats, I'm indifferent to them being in the lineup for the most part. But you obviously don't want your young kids sitting in the press box. To me it's top 9 or Adirondack. Someone like Glencross or Hudler should be moved.

 

[Taranis]

I'm looking at Setogushi TOI but can only find his last five of, 9:28, 5:57: 17:14, 11:00 and 15:38. That seems like a good amount of time for a defensive 4th liner compared to Bollig.

 

[Lunatik]

I'm looking at Setogushi TOI but can only find his last five of, 9:28, 5:57: 17:14, 11:00 and 15:38. That seems like a good amount of time for a defensive 4th liner compared to Bollig.

He's been used on the 3rd line when guys are hurt more often than not.

 

[Taranis]

I guess my overall point is that if hes being used on the third line shouldn't he be putting up some points?

 

[Wheels of Poirier]

I guess my overall point is that if hes being used on the third line shouldn't he be putting up some points?

As I mentioned in another thread, Preds fans are asking the same thing about our old pal Olli

 

[Lunatik]

I guess my overall point is that if hes being used on the third line shouldn't he be putting up some points?

You've never seen a 3rd line NHL player be in a slump for 10 games? It happens all the time to guys that play everyday, but Seto doesn't have thaqt luxury he averages playing only about every other game. It's hard to work out of slumps when that's all you play.

 

[Steven]

+/- might not be a good indicator of anything on a game-by-game basis, but over a number of games throughout the season when comparing players who have played on the same team, in the same system, under the same coach? There's definitely some reasonable conclusions to draw from it. I'm not saying I consider +/- the be all end all of anything, in fact I think it's largely a useless, unfair statistic. But under the right conditions, there's definitely a thread of consistency. Again, compare the top guys to the bottom guys on the team in the stat. Our best players this season are near the top, the ones who have struggled the most are near the bottom. Doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot, but it shows that there is some weight to the stat when comparing players of the same team.

I see what you're saying about player roles on their respective team, and it's a good point. Often players used in an offensive role have the benefit of being on the ice when goals are scored for their team, regardless of whether or not they did a damn thing. And I have no rebuttal for it. It's a perfectly valid point, but it doesn't change the fact that our top players are at one end of the spectrum and our weakest ones are at the other. Can you honestly tell me that if we played Smid-Engelland for 25 minutes a night, fed them offensive zone starts, and played them in an offensive role that they would have a similar +/- to Brodano? Not a damn chance, in fact, it'd probably be even worse. Maybe an unfair point, as those two have never been capable of playing that role, and they never will be, but I think you get my point. Like I said, I don't put much weight into +/-, and I fully acknowledge that it's often misleading and unfair, and as you point out, it favors players given certain roles on a team while works against others unfairly. But to say that it is, without any doubt, 100% useless in all given situations in comparisons? I simply don't agree. I won't argue the point though. If you think it's 100% useless, that's your call and you can think whatever you choose. Agree to disagree.

 

[Taranis]

Fair enough, but I like our call ups on the third line like our last game, where they produce.

 

[Lunatik]

+/- might not be a good indicator of anything on a game-by-game basis, but over a number of games throughout the season when comparing players who have played on the same team, in the same system, under the same coach? There's definitely some reasonable conclusions to draw from it. I'm not saying I consider +/- the be all end all of anything, in fact I think it's largely a useless, unfair statistic. But under the right conditions, there's definitely a thread of consistency. Again, compare the top guys to the bottom guys on the team in the stat. Our best players this season are near the top, the ones who have struggled the most are near the bottom. Doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot, but it shows that there is some weight to the stat when comparing players of the same team.

I see what you're saying about player roles on their respective team, and it's a good point. Often players used in an offensive role have the benefit of being on the ice when goals are scored for their team, regardless of whether or not they did a damn thing. And I have no rebuttal for it. It's a perfectly valid point, but it doesn't change the fact that our top players are at one end of the spectrum and our weakest ones are at the other. Can you honestly tell me that if we played Smid-Engelland for 25 minutes a night, fed them offensive zone starts, and played them in an offensive role that they would have a similar +/- to Brodano? Not a damn chance, in fact, it'd probably be even worse. Maybe an unfair point, as those two have never been capable of playing that role, and they never will be, but I think you get my point. Like I said, I don't put much weight into +/-, and I fully acknowledge that it's often misleading and unfair, and as you point out, it favors players given certain roles on a team while works against others unfairly. But to say that it is, without any doubt, 100% useless in all given situations in comparisons? I simply don't agree. I won't argue the point though. If you think it's 100% useless, that's your call and you can think whatever you choose. Agree to disagree.

scroll up to the post where I showed -6 of his -7

I am saying it is 100% useless without context. Saying "he's -7" means absolutely squat, especially for a guy who has only played in half the games. It's a bad stat in general though because it either punishes or rewards everyone on the ice for 1 guys mistake/good play.

 

[Lunatik]

Fair enough, but I like our call ups on the third line like our last game, where they produce.

Yeah, but we can't always call a guy up, that is where and when Seto plays. He plays when someone is hurt but not bad enough to go on IR or he plays when a guy falls ill. He doesn't practice with that line, he doesn't play regular games with them. All I am advocating is keeping Seto as the guy to thrust into the lineup when you have no other option rather than putting a kid who could be playing in ADK in that role.

 

[Steven]

scroll up to the post where I showed -6 of his -7

I am saying it is 100% useless without context. Saying "he's -7" means absolutely squat, especially for a guy who has only played in half the games. It's a bad stat in general though because it either punishes or rewards everyone on the ice for 1 guys mistake/good play.

I think we're getting closer to saying the same thing. I'm not really arguing the point of Seto's +/- anyways, I don't really care what it is. There are at least 12 better options than him at forward with a healthy lineup, if not 15+, and that alone should be telling enough. I agree though, it's a stat often skewed and misleading. With no context, it's practically useless, I agree there. But I still think it carries some weight in certain scenarios.

 

[Taranis]

All I am advocating is keeping Seto as the guy to thrust into the lineup when you have no other option rather than putting a kid who could be playing in ADK in that role.

I agree that no kid should be brought up for forth line duty, but if their going to get 10m+ a night then I think we do have better options.

 

[Lunatik]

I think we're getting closer to saying the same thing. I'm not really arguing the point of Seto's +/- anyways, I don't really care what it is. There are at least 12 better options than him at forward with a healthy lineup, if not 15+, and that alone should be telling enough. I agree though, it's a stat often skewed and misleading. With no context, it's practically useless, I agree there. But I still think it carries some weight in certain scenarios.

those scenarios are when you have all relevant information.

+/- to me is relevant only when the player is responsible in some way for the goal for or against. Too many times are goals caused by bad line changes where the person/people responsible aren't even on the ice anymore when the goal is scored.

 

[Anglesmith]

Regarding Bollig, I just want to chip in that I never played hockey growing up and I never understood the mantra of having tough guys around the protect skilled players. But then I started playing hockey this year in a beer league where it's supposed to be non-contact, but sometimes guys get out of hand. My opinion completely changed regarding enforcers, because having guys standing up for each other and pushing back when the other team starts taking liberties absolutely makes a difference mentally. It's a hard thing to try to explain in purely quantitative terms, though, but I feel that guys like Bollig and Engelland are contributors to the way this team is playing right now, even when they're sitting on the bench.

Yes, teams are moving away from it, but only in cases where the enforcers in question are complete liabilities on the ice. The Flames signed Bollig because they felt he could be more than that, and that he was ready for a more hockey-playing role. All the guys in the league who can enforce and play hockey are still around. No team is icing a roster which 100% won't fight.

 

[Steven]

Let's look at the real stats that matter:

Jooris last night: 18:11 minutes of ice, 1G 1A 2P, 3 hits, 1 block, 1 takeaway, and 78% in the dot.
Setoguchi last night: Full 60 minutes of press box, 2 hotdogs, 1 iced tea (no ice), 3 bathroom trips, 83% urinal accuracy

Yeah I'd say he's been replaced.

 

[Lunatik]

Let's look at the real stats that matter:

Jooris last night: 18:11 minutes of ice, 1G 1A 2P, 3 hits, 1 block, 1 takeaway, and 78% in the dot.
Setoguchi last night: Full 60 minutes of press box, 2 hotdogs, 1 iced tea (no ice), 3 bathroom trips, 83% urinal accuracy

Yeah I'd say he's been replaced.

And when Byron slips and hurts his knee trying to reach the top shelf Seto will be ready to step into that spot until Byron is ready to return or a callup can join the team (if it requires a trip to IR)

 

[CraigsList]

I agree with many of your points AF, but I've never understood your knock on Byron. He is one of the hardest working players on our team.

 

[Lunatik]

I agree with many of your points AF, but I never understood your knock on Byron. He is one of the hardest working players on our team.

Where did I knock Byron? I've never said anything bad about him.

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

I agree with many of your points AF, but I've never understood your knock on Byron. He is one of the hardest working players on our team.

I agree with your point, but why do you have all words in your username to all start with F?

lol

 

[Steven]

And when Byron slips and hurts his knee trying to reach the top shelf Seto will be ready to step into that spot until Byron is ready to return or a callup can join the team (if it requires a trip to IR)

Not gunna lie, I lol'd. I'm fine with Seto bouncing around as an injury fill-in if need be, or possibly even being put in when a message needs to be sent to another forward not playing well.

Anyone remember that episode of King of the Hill where Bobby makes the track and field team, but it's actually only a ploy by the coach where he uses Bobby to embarrass his other athletes by letting Bobby compete in their place whenever they're goofing around? I believe the coach called him "The Stick"

Well, I think we've found our Stick

 

[CraigsList]

I agree with your point, but why do you have all words in your username to all start with F?

lol

Coincidental? Convenient? Why does yours rhyme?

What an odd question to ask!