GDT: HNIC - Flames vs. Sens

[Wheels of Poirier]

Granlund has played fewer than 10 games, it's an easy justification. Jooris, IMO has earned it and IMO should be here before Byron, but we will always have at least 1 injury.

It'd be an easier justification if he had played fewer than 10 games in an inconsequential role on the forth line with no points, but that's nowhere near the case. Granlund has done about as much as Jooris has to prove he deserves to stay imo

 

[WhereIsIt]

Room has to be made for Jooris and Granlund at this point. Seto and Gratz are in serious jeopardy, even Bollig to a certain extent.

At this point we have enough talent to run four legitimate lines. Seto and Gratz (unfortunately) shouldn't even be on the team at this point. Seto just can't seem to produce despite some decent effort lately. Gratz doesn't have a role to play in this league anymore. Bollig plays hard but it's hard to justify regular minutes for a guy who doesn't produce when you have players who play hard and produce ready to replace him.

My completely healthy, 14-forward roster looks like this:

Backlund
Bollig (lucky number 14)
Bouma
Byron
Colborne
Gaudreau
Glencross
Granlund
Hudler
Jones
Jooris
Monahan
Raymond
Stajan

Sven is close, he hasn't seen the last of the AHL yet though. If we trade GlenX, Sven is here to stay.

So I don't think we need to make any trades to clear room for people. Seto and McGrattan to Adirondack if we ever get healthy.

 

[Lunatik]

Guys? McGrattan and Setoguchi are our 13th and 14th forwards. They are healthy scratches that play on an emergency basis or when a bit of a mixup is needed. Putting a kid in their roles is stupid because that kid would be sitting half the time and not actually playing. You can always recall them again when another injury happens.

 

[Taranis]

Guys? McGrattan and Setoguchi are our 13th and 14th forwards. They are healthy scratches that play on an emergency basis or when a bit of a mixup is needed. Putting a kid in their roles is stupid because that kid would be sitting half the time and not actually playing. You can always recall them again when another injury happens.

I don't think anyone disputes that, just that they are totally replaceable by any other equivalent vets.

 

[Lunatik]

I don't think anyone disputes that, just that they are totally replaceable by any other equivalent vets.

Like who? None of the other vets have played their way out of the lineup or else we don't have a kid who can play their role.

 

[WhereIsIt]

Guys? McGrattan and Setoguchi are our 13th and 14th forwards. They are healthy scratches that play on an emergency basis or when a bit of a mixup is needed. Putting a kid in their roles is stupid because that kid would be sitting half the time and not actually playing. You can always recall them again when another injury happens.

Who says the kids are sitting? Maybe it's Bollig and Stajan sitting one night. Could be different every game based on performance. When you factor in injuries as well, you are almost never going to have a young guy sitting that should be playing.

You can also always call up McGrattan or Seto anytime, because nobody is ever going to claim them the way this league is right now (everybody up tight against the 50-contract mark).

 

[Lunatik]

Who says the kids are sitting? Maybe it's Bollig and Stajan sitting. Could be different every game based on performance. When you factor in injuries as well, you are almost never going to have a young guy sitting that should be playing.

Hence my comment about bringing the kid back up the next time there is an injury.

If you call a player up and play them regular minutes, being sent to the AHL is not a punishment.

None of the kids can play Bolligs role and Stajan deserves to play.

 

[WhereIsIt]

Like who? None of the other vets have played their way out of the lineup or else we don't have a kid who can play their role.

You don't want guys sitting who've played their way out of the lineup. You want guys sitting because someone else played their way into the lineup. Very difficult to have that atmosphere with Grats and Seto on the team.

 

[Lunatik]

You don't want guys sitting who've played their way out of the lineup. You want guys sitting because someone else played their way into the lineup. Very difficult to have that atmosphere with Grats and Seto on the team.

yeah you're right, it's really hurting the team

 

[Anglesmith]

Looking back on the season so far, there hasn't really been a time when Setoguchi has played in the lineup and taken the spot of someone who deserves it more. Setoguchi has been used when everyone else was sick or injured, or else when we wanted to sit a young guy for his development.

 

[Lunatik]

Looking back on the season so far, there hasn't really been a time when Setoguchi has played in the lineup and taken the spot of someone who deserves it more. Setoguchi has been used when everyone else was sick or injured, or else when we wanted to sit a young guy for his development.

Exactly and we need player for this role. Seto gets in the lineup and works hard and he doesn't sulk. People are underestimating how hard it is to find a player to fill that role effectively.

 

[WhereIsIt]

Hence my comment about bringing the kid back up the next time there is an injury.

If you call a player up and play them regular minutes, being sent to the AHL is not a punishment.

None of the kids can play Bolligs role and Stajan deserves to play.

What is Bollig's role exactly? Slow down any line he plays with? Any toughness or intimidation factor is all but irrelevent in this league at this point. Like I said, I appreciate his energy but he's not a very good NHL hockey player. Plenty of other players bring that same energy with more skill.

I'm not saying Stajan doesn't deserve to play, I'm just being hypothetical. The two people sitting could be constantly rotating. And again this is assuming a 100% healthy lineup, which almost never happens. I don't think there will be a problem with Jooris or Granlund sitting. If there is, you send them down, like you said.

 

[WhereIsIt]

yeah you're right, it's really hurting the team

What, so the team can't be better? We shouldn't be striving to have the best team possible? I'm not following your point here.

 

[CraigsList]

AF is right, as long as you are playing the young guys in a top 9 spot, it won't hurt their development if they are sent down to Adirondack.

I would argue that Bollig can definitely be replaced by Ferland though.

 

[Taranis]

Exactly and we need player for this role. Seto gets in the lineup and works hard and he doesn't sulk. People are underestimating how hard it is to find a player to fill that role effectively.

Zero pts and -7 I don't know maybe I am a bit harsh but I think he needs to be better.

 

[Lunatik]

What is Bollig's role exactly? Slow down any line he plays with? Any toughness or intimidation factor is all but irrelevent in this league at this point. Like I said, I appreciate his energy but he's not a very good NHL hockey player. Plenty of other players bring that same energy with more skill.

I'm not saying Stajan doesn't deserve to play, I'm just being hypothetical. The two people sitting could be constantly rotating. And again this is assuming a 100% healthy lineup, which almost never happens. I don't think there will be a problem with Jooris or Granlund sitting. If there is, you send them down, like you said.

Bollig brings energy and defends his teammates. He's already protected Jooris and Bouma, saying that is irrelevant tells me you know absolutely nothing about what Burke and Treliving value in their team. Skill is not the answer for every spot within a lineup, there is a reason every team in the NHL has a guy like Bollig.

 

[WhereIsIt]

Bollig brings energy and defends his teammates. He's already protected Jooris and Bouma, saying that is irrelevant tells me you know absolutely nothing about what Burke and Treliving value in their team. Skill is not the answer for every spot within a lineup, there is a reason every team in the NHL has a guy like Bollig.

The whole protection thing is complete nonsense. Bollig fighting some guy who hits Jooris and Bouma with a clean hit isn't preventing some other player on another team hitting those guys cleanly the next week. Biggest myth in hockey, in my opinion. I understand Burke values that, but he needs to adapt. It's not that league anymore.

 

[Lunatik]

Zero pts and -7 I don't know maybe I am a bit harsh but I think he needs to be better.

You know anytime someone uses +/- as anything I wonder if they are even worth replying to. It's like the people who use only corsi to prove a point.

But I will reply anyway.

Anyone who has actually watched Setoguchi with an open mind will tell you that he has helped create chance and he works hard. When a guy is playing a bottom 6 role and not being in the lineup consistently, you cannot ask for much more. The only player that sits more than him is McGrattan, in fact I don't think another forward on out roster has been a healthy scratch for more than 1 or 2 games.

 

[Lunatik]

The whole protection thing is complete nonsense. Bollig fighting some guy who hits Jooris and Bouma with a clean hit isn't preventing some other player on another team hitting those guys cleanly the next week. Biggest myth in hockey, in my opinion. I understand Burke values that, but he needs to adapt. It's not that league anymore.

Every GM in the league still believe it, the players still believe it. So hey if you want to think you know more than the people actually involved in the league go right ahead and continue to lie to yourself.

 

[Taranis]

Classic AF holier than thou talk.

 

[Lunatik]

Classic AF holier than thou talk.

If you can't handle being called out on using useless stats, then don't use them.

 

[Taranis]

Your the one who can't handle someone having a different opinion. The plus minus system is valid if you take into context what happened at the time. Trying to degrade others opinion is your thing.

 

[Steven]

Classic AF holier than thou talk.

I've always noticed a bit of a contrarian streak to his posting too, but you can't really argue the points he makes. He speaks the truth and he knows his stuff. And I even sort've agree on Seto. He hasn't been absolutely horrible all season (though some games he has). He's had a few good games, and the effort level has undeniably been there. I honestly feel bad for the guy, as he's clearly putting in the effort, but he just doesn't have the tools to do much in the game anymore. But the reality is, he's been outplayed by the call ups. Regardless of whether or not his own play is deemed up to par, there's at least 12 other forwards to ice on a nightly basis who are better, more effective options. It is what it is.

 

[WhereIsIt]

Yeah, always love the attitude. It's a legitimate debate right now though, many people would agree with me, many would agree with AF.

Just because a bunch of GMs and players believe it doesn't make it true. I don't use the word "myth" for dramatic effect. The idea of the enforcer has been engrained in the ethos of this game for so long, it just has this positive feedback effect within the league. The players believe it, it's passed on to the next generation of players, and the old generation of players become the GMs that keep that fire burning just a while longer.

Doesn't mean they are right.

And you are starting to see GMs change their ways. You may have noticed that Colton Orr and Frazer McLaren are conspicuously absent from the Leafs roster this year. Nonis must not be too worried about his players being able to stick up to themselves, especially since many other teams are following suit. There's a reason McGrattan has been in the pressbox more than the penalty box this year, and it's not because his play has regressed. There's nobody for him to fight anymore.

 

[Steven]

I should also add, while I think plus-minus is 100% useless when comparing players league wide, it's at least a reasonable talking point when comparing players on the same team. Our best 3 +/- guys are Brodie, Giordano, and Gaudreau. The worst 3 are Setoguchi, Smid and Engelland. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the pattern there.