As for the contracts, no one knows what Hunter or Lou would have signed the big 3 for (or if they would have managed to all three signed at all) so that is all guess work. I said several times in the summer before any of them had signed - just as Dubas was taking over - that as long as Babcock was the coach all three of NMM were going to be nightmares to sign and none of them would sign a team friendly contract. Lou also had plenty of time to sign Nylander and had nothing to show for it. People can say that without Tavares the other three may have signed cheaper because they wouldn't have that 11M to compare it to, but that would have just created a situation where there was more money available for them to demand.
Hindsight - Dubas or Hunter?
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Bluelines
Python FTW!
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tmlfan98
No More Excuses #MarnerOut
Man this fanbase really reminds me of Lakers fans sometimes.
Anyone here ever been on LakersGround OT? Pretty jokes over there
Anyone here ever been on LakersGround OT? Pretty jokes over there
hotpaws
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i understand that , i'm just saying the team tried to fix an area that didn't need fixing
at the time JT was signed we needed a 3rd line C and D and even then we could have shifted Willie to C and used assets and the cap we had to address the D
sure it wouldn't have been as sexy as signing JT but it would have probably been a more effective use of cap space
Bluelines
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Sure thing. Dubas wins the cup he is greatest GM ever.
For me it was an experiment to see if creeping determinism is at play yet.
Merrrlin
Grab the 9 iron, Barry!
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Bluelines
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I was told a few years ago in a sensitivity training course the word "chick" is offensive to some chicks. So I asked the trainer, who was a chick (and a friend of mine) ... so what do you want me to call these chicks, she said call us women, so I said to her .. "OK, so "Broads" ..." I got a good chuckle out of the class and she laughed too...
Mess
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Realistic or unrealistic expectations?.
Lou inherited a team from interim Gms Dubas/Hunter shortly after they botched the Kessel trade, that resulted in Leafs ending up dead last 30th overall with 69 points (drafted Matthews).
In the course of 2 seasons thereafter Lou Lam took a 69 point team to 95 points (+ 26 point improvement) in year #2 (lost in round #1) to 105 points in year #3 (lost in round #1) team built around a core of 19-20 year old players.
Did you expect last overall to Cup run within 2 seasons, and is that the bases you're judging Lou Lam's body of GM work on?
If so, as unrealistic expectations that may have been, are you now judging Dubas using that very same playoff success meter, where he inherited a 105 point team regular season champ to a 100 point team ( lost in round #1) in year #1, to struggling team at present (with the core young players now 2 years older and more experienced)?
I guess if Dubas can take this years Leafs past the 1st round of the playoffs (something no Leafs team has done since 2004) then at least you can use your playoff success after GM change gauge and evaluate both GMs with the same brush.
If however Dubas does not achieve greater success, having the added avantage of 3 prior playoff years experience now, then I guess that means jack, when you lose in the first round. Regular season champ to non playoff team in 2 years = bring on the next GM.
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Bluelines
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He wins a Cup , with this team, in this city... there will be a statue of him at Pearson, Union station and at the CN tower.
Its not your fault
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Most of the islanders were already there that have had a substantial impact on that club. They are sinking not swiming as well.
deprw
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Well mostly you can counter that judgement by stating that it have been mostly goaltending that has ruined us during that tenure. Though part of the blame is to Dubas, because we didn’t upgrade our backup sooner, but in any case no one knew that Andersen would play like this and so long. His been one of the worst goalies this year.
It’s been clear that we need to upgrade our D, but Dubas has tried to do that all ready. Muzzin was right move, Barrie wasn’t and there wasn’t that much to do last summer. We were in cap hell, part of this is on Dubas (Matthews & Marner), but part of that is on Lou (Zaitsev, Brown and Marleau). Even if Lou was here, he couldn’t have done shit to our defense. We didn’t have enough cap room, he could have traded away Nylander, which would have been huge mistake. Even if Lou handled those RFA negotiations better we still wouldn’t have enough cap room for impact D and you have to remember that trading for impact D is pretty expensive. Nylander stock was low, so if we had used him as trade chip we would have surely lost that trade if you look how he plays this season.
Everyone understood last summer, before we traded Marleau and Zaitsev that this would be missed season, because of the cap. Dubas pulled two trades and got enough room for Barrie. Offensive RHD that many thought we needed. We tried Ceci as reclamation project and it didn’t pay off, but at least we got rid of Zaitsevs contract.
Now we can try to retool next summer, maybe we trade Nylander now, because his value is high or we get rid of some forward and stockpile assets for impact D. Now we have our flexibility back. Lou might have been better in those RFA negotiations, but he also signed few bad deals, so we don’t know what would have happened with him in big picture.
This seasons cap hell was mostly constructed by Lous choices. I’m not saying that Dubas has made all the right moves, clearly he haven’t, but it isnt’ that black or white in our case.
Bluelines
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I disagree....kadri was a great 2C, 30 goals, b4 JT was signed. (kyle flexing ego muscles) JT is not the problem, im just saying he was not the solutuin. Mathews/kadri/willie/goat(or an improvement over goat via tarde.) was the direction we were going, I thought....again, im not saying JT is the problem at all, but he was certainly a deviation from SHANAPLAN. our line up wold look something like this: mikhaev/Mathews/marner
johnsson/nylander/kap
engvall/kadri/hyman(up or down)
marleau/goat/spezza
timashev/Clifford
reilly/?
muzzin/holl
sandin/liljegrin
dermott/marincin
Curtis mac, and anderson
im sure the 1st rounder we gave for marleau, along with prospects, etc. would have helped obtain a right handed defenseman.....AND we would have had the $.
sooo...im not saying im right, this is my opinion, BUT, is this lineup worse?
Bomber0104
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Dubas was the absolute wrong person for the job, and I've maintained that from the minute he was hired.
It's hard to imagine any of the alternative choices doing a worse job then Dubas at this point, but I went with Lou for one simple reason..
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
It's hard to imagine any of the alternative choices doing a worse job then Dubas at this point, but I went with Lou for one simple reason..
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
You completely undermined any point you were trying to make, when you put in a petty comment like "kyle flexing ego muscles". It demonstrates very clearly you have a bias against the GM, and throws the value of the rest of your post into question.
I'm not sure there is a single NHL GM who wouldn't have tried to sign Tavares in Dubas' shoes.
X66
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Lol, this place.
Dubas isn't the problem with the team, and I've already said, this season actually gives me more faith in Dubas than I had before.
The only reason the Leafs are in this position is because they held on to Babcock for too long, something you know Dubas' would have taken care of in the summer if he could.
Yes the Leafs are struggling right now, but that happens with every team, it's only magnified because their isn't much room for error thanks to the Babcock start.
We can't just ignore that under Keefe they've been racking up points at an elite pace, and that's with trash goaltending.
There isn't a single move that Dubas made that is killing the team, he can't control bad goaltending and injuries.
Dubas isn't the problem with the team, and I've already said, this season actually gives me more faith in Dubas than I had before.
The only reason the Leafs are in this position is because they held on to Babcock for too long, something you know Dubas' would have taken care of in the summer if he could.
Yes the Leafs are struggling right now, but that happens with every team, it's only magnified because their isn't much room for error thanks to the Babcock start.
We can't just ignore that under Keefe they've been racking up points at an elite pace, and that's with trash goaltending.
There isn't a single move that Dubas made that is killing the team, he can't control bad goaltending and injuries.
this is a well thought out post, BUT no GM in the league is passing on JT if willing to come no matter what plan it diverts. If he said to Detroit/ottawa ill sign with you but scrap the rebuild they would scrap it. Jt is better than kadri easily.
Also at that point Willy hadn't been a full time centre and still isn't a full time centre so just saying he can be our 2C isn't really fair (i think he probably could do it but we don't know), what we did know is JT was a franchise C so nylander's C experiment didn't need to happen
Carltons Cup
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Except for ToneDog who does a damn fine job spreadsheeting the prediction threads
I dont think they would have done the same with Hunter either. Dubas wimped out at negotiations and here we are.
yea I don't understand the hate Dubas is getting, I mean the debate between Hunter/Dubas is weird to me Hunter's biggest strength was suppose to be identifying talent. especially Junior talent which he has worked with for years with the Knights, yet it appears like Dubas draft's are going to be much better, tho it's still early and could change. so if dubas has done a better job at what was suppose to be Hunters biggest strength why would hunter have been better at being GM? what contracts did he negotiate at the NHL level to suggest he would be better? what trades at the NHL level has he negotiated to suggest he would do better? would Dale Hunter be a better coach for the Leafs over Keefe? because you know he would have been the next coach after Babcock or maybe we still have Babcock. at the very least Dubas should get through next year before his job is even questioned. GM's need job security it takes time before they are able to get the team there looking for. organization's need stability at the GM position to be successful.
I also find it a bit weird the hate Barrie gets, now I know he's not very good defensively, and has not performed as expected, but he will get 40-50 points this season at 2.75 million, that's very good value for that cap hit. and his job wasn't to be great defensively he was brought in to replace Gardiner's puck moving ability. obviously was hoping for average defense but at the time of the trade it was absolutely a good deal for the Leafs.
I also find it a bit weird the hate Barrie gets, now I know he's not very good defensively, and has not performed as expected, but he will get 40-50 points this season at 2.75 million, that's very good value for that cap hit. and his job wasn't to be great defensively he was brought in to replace Gardiner's puck moving ability. obviously was hoping for average defense but at the time of the trade it was absolutely a good deal for the Leafs.
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