Hindsight - Dubas or Hunter?

[thewave]

Hunter or Lou but I really want to know if Kyle Dubas was pushed for by Bell and Rogers execs as well as LT. He seems like a corporate darling with the use of all the buzzwords, down with all the initiatives and PC progressive culture that urban Canada and the media has latched on to.

I wouldn't be shocked to hear it was Bell LT and Rogers that pushed Kyle on us.

 

[Mess]

Lou Lam had us at the top of the Leafs franchise ladder setting new team records for wins and points.

Inexplicably the Leafs changed GMs while sitting on top and its been downhill ever since.

Perhaps Lou Lam strict rules and military like discipline is what was needed with his rules and standards.

Without structure Leafs players seem to be crumbling.

Dubas seems to be taking this team under his direction like an 18 wheeler over a cliff again.

Leafs should have hired Stevie Yzerman as GM years ago when that opportunity presented itself, as he did an magnificent job building the Lightning into an annual Cup contender . IMO

 

[SeaOfBlue]

The point about Hunter not being sought after, it was reported when Lou left, Hunter did not want to leave the Southern Ontario area (IE Buffalo, Detroit, Toronto , Ottawa). He limited his options.

TBF Hunter is a great elevaluator of talent, I think he would have built the team differently than Dubas,

His draft record says otherwise... Dubas' past two drafts have looked a lot more promising than any of Hunter's three drafts. He did not even have a 1st rounder last year, and had like 3 weeks of control over the draft board before his first one.

And Hunter's draft record is heavily boosted by some European picks which is not even really his territory, just like it is not really Dubas' territory, and drafting Marner in a draft where pretty much anyone in that top 10 would have been considered a pretty good pick.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

He was reportedly interviewed for the Wilds last gm opening.

Its reminding me a bit of Futa, a name who pops up here and there everytime theres a new GM position but never really gets to the final group

Pretty sure EDM interviewed him as well.

 

[biotk]

Hunter (or Lou with Hunter still in charge of the draft) would have drafted a 6' 6" D with no talent in the first round of 2018 (with the Leafs' regular pick instead of trading down and still getting Sandin). Neither would have likely drafted Robertson in 2019 either, but Lou would have had a 1st in 2019 (as Lou never traded for a decent D in the years he was in Toronto), although he likely wouldn't have had a second round pick anyways as he would have traded his second away for the 4th year in a row for a rental third line C (to play behind Matthews and Kadri).

 

[hotpaws]

Everything one read though suggested otherwise thoigh. Shanahan clearly had been playing a larger role in "hockey" decisions than the average team preaident

Babcock for example was said to have signed with thr Leafs because ofnthe hreater sway he'd have on personnel decisions too.

In most teams the GM builds the front office - which wasnt the case with thr Leafs. Hence why the original group split apart fairly quickly, because there really wasnt that cohesion. Hunter and Dubas didn't want to worl together, there were tensions with Dubas and Babcock ect

when Lou was hired he was asked if it was going to be GM by committee and he said he was in charge

the original group worked well with Lou/Babs/Hunter all on the same page and LL banishing Dubas to the Marlies , it fell apart after Lou left since Hunter/Babs had no time for Dubas and his managing by excel style

also no 2 teams operate exactly alike , sometimes the Pres is also the GM and some presidents aren't involved in the day to day decisions as much as others

 

[Bluelines]

I am only judging Dubas on the team's overall on ice performance and it has been dreadful since Jan 1. It comes down to roster construction which he is responsible for. He paid the big 3 what they wanted but it is clear they are not prepared, willing or simply not able to carry the load as he expected and paid them to do.

He also failed to upgrade the D when it has been abundantly clear that it needed upgrading since Lou was here.

I do not think Lou let's the big 3 own him in contract negotiations.

The big three does what they do (generate points) very well, its what they don't do that fans have issues with (Two way play). Maybe Dubas overvalued the offensive part and undervalued the defensive part and over paid for production. Dubas clearly has the mindset that "go go go" offence will beat defence more often than it will lose against it. Perhaps he coveted what we already had more than what we didn't have.

 

[Walshy7]

Are people seriously talking about firing Dubas for trading Kadri?

It was a bad trade but kadri vetoed the original trade using his no trade clause.

The Campbell trade was a win and his drafting has been excellent.

it wasnt even a bad trade, after 53~ games barrie had 2 less points than kadri. Kadri got injured at roughly 51 games so not fair to continue comparison. Then we added 25~ points with kerfoot. Kadri is so incredibly overrated around here

 

[Walshy7]

Hunter or Lou but I really want to know if Kyle Dubas was pushed for by Bell and Rogers execs as well as LT. He seems like a corporate darling with the use of all the buzzwords, down with all the initiatives and PC progressive culture that urban Canada and the media has latched on to.

I wouldn't be shocked to hear it was Bell LT and Rogers that pushed Kyle on us.

tell me why hunter tell me why he'd be better. For a "draft guru" he didnt really do any better than any other head scout we've had? what would make you believe he'd be better than dubas?

 

[A1LeafNation]

Remind of which team has Hunter as GM?

Oh right.

 

[Menzinger]

when Lou was hired he was asked if it was going to be GM by committee and he said he was in charge

the original group worked well with Lou/Babs/Hunter all on the same page and LL banishing Dubas to the Marlies , it fell apart after Lou left since Hunter/Babs had no time for Dubas and his managing by excel style

also no 2 teams operate exactly alike , sometimes the Pres is also the GM and some presidents aren't involved in the day to day decisions as much as others

What people say and how things are can be different...

Weord to exclude Dubas from that "original" group considering Dubas hired before any of them.....

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Lou Lam had us at the top of the Leafs franchise ladder setting new team records for wins and points.

Artificially boosted by a 7-2 shootout record, a roster whose only real injury troubles were losing Matthews and Zaitsev for 20 games a piece, and a roster that had three top end players still on ELC deals... Yet he managed a whole 5 more points than last year.

Leafs had 4 more ROW's last year, and while they did not suffer nearly as many injuries as this year, they still suffered more injuries than two years ago...

And what is funny is that even with all of the injuries this year, and all of the inconsistencies that the Leafs are facing, Keefe's Leafs are still on pace for 104 points and more ROW's than Lou's franchise-record setting team... Despite having to pay those top end players real money for once.

 

[Warden of the North]

Where i fall on things. Dubas isnt immune from ceiticism. But its hard to get a full idea of with less than 2 full seasons under his direction

And re Hunter, i dont have strong feelings either way on the man. But unfortunately ive got a bad feeling in retrospect we may look back on the Leafs drafting 2015-2017 in a few years (1st round selections aside) in not that positive of a light....

So far only 1/5 of of theor 2nd round selections has shown to be a consistent NHLer (so far). And certainly none of them look to be impact players

Agreed on Hunters draft record. Hes on the path to having squandered many of the non-1st round picks he had.

 

[Carltons Cup]

No one beats Dubas when it comes to preparing a kickazz spreadsheet.

 

[hotpaws]

What people say and how things are can be different...

Weord to exclude Dubas from that "original" group considering Dubas hired before any of them.....

i didn't exclude him , i said exactly how the structure was

also there's no need to constantly try to spin past events since Dubas was the one Shanny choose to promote and his performance as GM will dictate how people view him

he should be given at least next season and if the team performs well he'll get the credit due , however if the team continues to struggle he'll probably be replaced

 

[thewave]

tell me why hunter tell me why he'd be better. For a "draft guru" he didnt really do any better than any other head scout we've had? what would make you believe he'd be better than dubas?

He has a better grasp on the game and a relationship with OHL players. He is successful and one of the most studied students of the game, with real experience. He knew Lou, he knows the NHLPA, he helped develop future talent that spans the entire league as it is today. He played with or worked with trainers, refs, doctors, execs and Zambo drivers.

He doesn't have an NHL job by choice. He prefers his team or the Leafs. Need I really say more?

 

[ShaneFalco]

Lou Lam had us at the top of the Leafs franchise ladder setting new team records for wins and points.

Means jack when you lose in the first round of the playoffs, unless you're happy being a regular season champ
Lou Lam also handcuffed the team with terrible contracts and trading for 20 game rentals

 

[Bluelines]

What has Dubas done that has helped the team?

Kadri trade? He was kinda forced to do this deal.
Zaitsev trade? He was forced to do this deal, Z asked for a trade.
Marleau trade? He was forced to drop a 1st rounder to clear cap space.
Released McBack-up.
Traded for Muz - I think this was a good deal 3 prospects/picks
Traded for Campbell - Short sample size but it looks to be a good deal
Russian Soup - It looked like he was a decent UFA signing.
Drafted Sandin/Robertson.

It feels like a lot of Dubas deals are reactionary to address the now and it inevitably affects the tomorrow negatively.

I don't see many moves that are for the purpose to sustain a long term winning program as Shanny/babcock/Lou ahve repeated many many many times

 

[thewave]

i didn't exclude him , i said exactly how the structure was

also there's no need to constantly try to spin past events since Dubas was the one Shanny choose to promote and his performance as GM will dictate how people view him

he should be given at least next season and if the team performs well he'll get the credit due , however if the team continues to struggle he'll probably be replaced

By that time he could have us locked as a treadmill team for a half decade. He already transitioned our strengths into weakness in under two years. Truly a menace, destructive GM like no other I have seen before.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Dubas was the right choice, although he wouldn't have been my choice.

I never bought in to the notion he was the smartest guy in the room and that he was going to change the way GM's manage.

 

[thewave]

What has Dubas done that has helped the team?

Kadri trade? He was kinda forced to do this deal.
Zaitsev trade? He was forced to do this deal, Z asked for a trade.
Marleau trade? He was forced to drop a 1st rounder to clear cap space.
Released McBack-up.
Traded for Muz - I think this was a good deal 3 prospects/picks
Traded for Campbell - Short sample size but it looks to be a good deal
Russian Soup - It looked like he was a decent UFA signing.
Drafted Sandin/Robertson.

It feels like a lot of Dubas deals are reactionary to address the now and it inevitably affects the tomorrow negatively.

I don't see many moves that are for the purpose to sustain a long term winning program as Shanny/babcock/Lou ahve repeated many many many times

Once you blow up the cap game, everything becomes reactionary. Once you are a reactionary GM, you are a do whatever it takes to stay employed GM. That's what he is now. I am sure he is shaking like a leaf in the box worried about his career and future.

 

[ULF_55]

Kurvers or Niedermeyer?
Kessel or Seguin and Hamilton?
marner or No. 8, 34, 38, 58?

I really don't think the story has come to The End.

 

[Menzinger]

What has Dubas done that has helped the team?

Kadri trade? He was kinda forced to do this deal.
Zaitsev trade? He was forced to do this deal, Z asked for a trade.
Marleau trade? He was forced to drop a 1st rounder to clear cap space.
Released McBack-up.
Traded for Muz - I think this was a good deal 3 prospects/picks
Traded for Campbell - Short sample size but it looks to be a good deal
Russian Soup - It looked like he was a decent UFA signing.
Drafted Sandin/Robertson.

It feels like a lot of Dubas deals are reactionary to address the now and it inevitably affects the tomorrow negatively.

I don't see many moves that are for the purpose to sustain a long term winning program as Shanny/babcock/Lou ahve repeated many many many times

Tavares?

I mean, if you break down most moves a GM makes they look like reactionary moves to shorter term issues - including those done by Lou.....

 

[hotpaws]

Means jack when you lose in the first round of the playoffs, unless you're happy being a regular season champ
Lou Lam also handcuffed the team with terrible contracts and trading for 20 game rentals

handcuffed the team ?

LL was left with Robidas/Lupul and Dion's brutal contracts and made them disappear PAIN FREE so i hardly think 1 extra year of Marleau and a D overpaid by roughly 1m is handcuffing a team

Dion for example is being paid by 2 teams not to play for them and lucky for us Lou was here so one of them isn't us , unlike how the great Dubas was bent over into retaining on Kessel which is still costing us cap space .

 

[hotpaws]

By that time he could have us locked as a treadmill team for a half decade. He already transitioned our strengths into weakness in under two years. Truly a menace, destructive GM like no other I have seen before.

sorry i worded it wrong

i wouldn't give him another off season but i'm pretty sure Shanny will