Hindsight - Dubas or Hunter?

[ToneDog]

Look at all those Cups we won with experienced GMs over the last 52 yeare. Stunning, when you think about it.

Stellick was the best of those GMs.

I thought Shanny was on the right track until he hired a wonder boy.

 

[Warden of the North]

Also, no other team has seen fit to hire Hunter.

Aside from that ita downright goofy to judge Dubas as a failure 20 months into the job when hes still cleaning up the mess of the former GM (which should be complete with the 1st going to Carolina).

 

[ToneDog]

Also, no other team has seen fit to hire Hunter.

Aside from that ita downright goofy to judge Dubas as a failure 20 months into the job when hes still cleaning up the mess of the former GM (which should be complete with the 1st going to Carolina).

If Lou was willing to stay, why dump him for Dubas or Hunter ?

 

[hotpaws]

Pretty sure the big 3 don't ambush Lou like they did Dubas.

and i'm also pretty sure Lou wouldn't have tried a "us vs we" media campaign like Dubas did after he signed JT to try to get the kids to take discounts to compensate for JT's salary

Lou isn't perfect , no GM is but i liked how he kept everything quiet and let the on ice product take center stage without the need to spin the narrative win or lose .

 

[jaric1862]

Ya it sucks right now with the team losing but Dubas was still the right choice....Also what is with people talking about Hunter like he'd be an amazing GM. Hunter shouldn't be considered in the same realm as Dubas or Lou.

 

[hotpaws]

Look at all those Cups we won with experienced GMs over the last 52 yeare. Stunning, when you think about it.

and look at all the cups we won with inexperienced GM's , Stellick-JFJ-Dubas

 

[RoadWarrior]

Are people seriously talking about firing Dubas for trading Kadri?

It was a bad trade but kadri vetoed the original trade using his no trade clause.

The Campbell trade was a win and his drafting has been excellent.

 

[MarMarSab3]

I'm a Dubas supporter and think he gets another season to right this ship, if he doesn't definitely see him gone after that. Inexperienced NHL GM and HC might be a bad combo but time will tell

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Said it when he was hired. The TML are not a training ground for rookie GMs.

Good thing he spent over a decade as a GM/Assistant GM working his way up through juniors, the AHL, and NHL before taking the job then.

 

[ToneDog]

and look at all the cups we won with inexperienced GM's , Stellick-JFJ-Dubas

Yikes. Stellick and JFJ had to be the worst of many bad GMs. I hope Dubas does not become the third but I don't have much confidence at the moment.

 

[Trapper]

Young smart men can be just as foolish and stubborn as old smart men. As experienced or not.

Life is a balance. It’s not one philosophy the end. We don’t need another Barrie any more than we need a Colton Orr.

But your core needs to have more than just one skill set. Same with your support. And if you don’t like when the going gets tough, you’ve already lost.

There is a dynamic issue at work, sum of the parts and you have to be willing to look just beyond what you believe. There are 31 other teams out there that can act as your cheat sheet. Look at them, at specific components. See what they have, the core, the attitude in comparison to just what you believe.

 

[hotpaws]

Also, no other team has seen fit to hire Hunter.

Aside from that ita downright goofy to judge Dubas as a failure 20 months into the job when hes still cleaning up the mess of the former GM (which should be complete with the 1st going to Carolina).

the mess ? i guess if you call leaving a 105pt team with a very very young elite core , a good prospect pool and tons of a cap space a mess then i'll agree with you , lol

LL cleaned up the Robidas/Lupul and especially Dion mess he inherited while instilling a winning structure but yea lets shit on him to try to deflect away from the Dube's performance so far .

 

[Bluelines]

Knew this would come up sooner or later.

re: Hunter - how different would the make up of this team be? He must not have been that sought after in the NHL as nobody went after him, despite rumours, and now he is back in the O. What draft pics/trades would have been different?

Fans are worked up right now, and justly so, with the recent performance of the team. Towards the end of the game last night I was having this exact discussion with someone. They were convinced Hunter was the answer, one reason being because "he played".....well sorry, but Fletcher didn't play, Shero didnt't play, many great GMs did not play. What great moves (aside from drafting Marner) was Hunter really a part of? What questionable ones?

The point about Hunter not being sought after, it was reported when Lou left, Hunter did not want to leave the Southern Ontario area (IE Buffalo, Detroit, Toronto , Ottawa). He limited his options.

TBF Hunter is a great elevaluator of talent, I think he would have built the team differently than Dubas,

 

[ToneDog]

Good thing he spent over a decade as a GM/Assistant GM working his way up through juniors, the AHL, and NHL before taking the job then.

Forget the OHL and Marlies. AGM sure but the proof is in the pudding. This team has gone south since he took over and he is running out of excuses.

 

[Bluelines]

Young smart men can be just as foolish and stubborn as old smart men. As experienced or not.

Life is a balance. It’s not one philosophy the end. We don’t need another Barrie any more than we need a Colton Orr.

But your core needs to have more than just one skill set. Same with your support. And if you don’t like when the going gets tough, you’ve already lost.

There is a dynamic issue at work, sum of the parts and you have to be willing to look just beyond what you believe. There are 31 other teams out there that can act as your cheat sheet. Look at them, at specific components. See what they have, the core, the attitude in comparison to just what you believe.

I resemble that comment

 

[Trapper]

I resemble that comment

You’re not alone.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Forget the OHL and Marlies. AGM sure but the proof is in the pudding. This team has gone south since he took over and he is running out of excuses.

You can't just forget those steps to make your point though.

You make it seem like we pulled a hipster off the street and threw him into the GM job lol

Some would say being a GM in junior is harder sometimes than the NHL because you deal with stricter roster rules, player reporting issues, managing kids in high school and their families, amongst several other things.

He has as much experience as most other new GM's in this league and has done better than most.

He took over a team that had bad contracts to move, he moved them.

He took over a team that never got injured, we got hit hard this year.

Marner's agent handcuffed us into adding LTIR money so we can't add players this year.

This team is still in a playoff spot, and will likely be there again. The team hasn't gone south lol

Even if you hate the Kadri deal, The Aves are just 3 points ahead of us in the standings. It's not like Kadri made them some unbeatable god-like team while Kerfoot and Barrie dragged us through the mud.

 

[Menzinger]

it wasn't a committee , Lou was the GM but like all GM's had a boss (in this case Shanny) and like all GM's received input from those's under him and above before he made a decision which could be overruled by those above

Everything one read though suggested otherwise thoigh. Shanahan clearly had been playing a larger role in "hockey" decisions than the average team preaident

Babcock for example was said to have signed with thr Leafs because ofnthe hreater sway he'd have on personnel decisions too.

In most teams the GM builds the front office - which wasnt the case with thr Leafs. Hence why the original group split apart fairly quickly, because there really wasnt that cohesion. Hunter and Dubas didn't want to worl together, there were tensions with Dubas and Babcock ect

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Well the answer is Dubas or other. Dubas has done a better job than Lou, and he's a much better candidate than Hunter. There is a reason multiple teams have passed on Hunter for their GM jobs and he had to go back to the OHL.

I'd consider 'other', but what are the candidates? Most of the few great experienced GM's are employed so are we picking from the crappy ones like Chiarelli, Fenton and Holland? Because I would take Dubas over any of them every day of the week. Who would be the best person for the job? Don Sweeney (Boston), Julien Brisebois (Tampa), Steve Yzerman (Tampa/Detroit), Joe Sakic (Colorado), Doug Armstrong (St. Louis), Jim Rutherford (Pittsburgh), George McPhee (Vegas), etc. Maybe, but none of them were available for our job.

Sweeney was the GM of the Year and Boston made the Cup Finals last year but he only has 5 years of NHL GM experience. His first two years, he missed the playoffs entirely, and he inherited a team that made the Cup Finals two years prior and made the Conference SF the year before. So they were not a bad team. It took him 4 playoffs to win a round as GM, before getting all the way to the Finals in year 5. It took Doug Armstrong 10 years as STL GM to win a Cup, and he was GM of the Year early in his tenure too. He had 5+ years of GM experience going in as well. Both of them had experience in other NHL roles as well. Jim Rutherford has 3 Cups, but he only made the playoffs 5 times in 16 years with the Hurricanes (2 QF losses, one CF loss, one SC Loss and one Cup) before taking over the Pens and winning 2 Cups in his first 3 years.

Dubas had 4 years of experience as an AGM getting personally groomed by easily the most experienced GM in the league before becoming a GM. The same amount of front office experience as Yzerman had before becoming Tampa's GM (and he had a very bumpy ride with Tampa before and while they had success) and more front office experience than Sakic had before becoming Colorado's GM.

All of these great GM's had to start somewhere. Some did not work out with the first team that hired them as GM, and most required multiple years as GM, even if they inherited a contending team or had a ton of prior experience, before they found any kind of success... And that success was not even a Cup most of the time.

The difference for Dubas is that he is in a fishbowl in Toronto where there are (rightfully) lofty expectations to win soon and win often with a lot of (once again rightfully) impatient fans... And based on the comments made on here, likely a lot of older impatient fans who believe this is just some hot shot kid who has no idea what he is doing... He knows what he is doing. There may be some things he will need to change with the roster and not everything is working out exactly as planned (both within and completely out of is control), but that is just the nature of the job. It would be no different for any other GM in Dubas' position... But he knows what he is doing.

As it stands right now, I have full confidence in Dubas as a GM, just like I would any other GM who has shown to be as capable as Dubas has been thus far. And I will continue to have confidence in him until he starts making decisions that makes me question him otherwise. Maybe that is in 2 years. Maybe that is in 20 years. Who knows. All I will know is that if it does, it does not justify any of the current irrational behaviour displayed by many Leafs fans right now. Nothing except (rightful) frustration and impatience after most have never seen a Cup... Neither of which should not be impacting those making decisions.

 

[ToneDog]

You can't just forget those steps to make your point though.

You make it seem like we pulled a hipster off the street and threw him into the GM job lol

Some would say being a GM in junior is harder sometimes than the NHL because you deal with stricter roster rules, player reporting issues, managing kids in high school and their families, amongst several other things.

He has as much experience as most other new GM's in this league and has done better than most.

He took over a team that had bad contracts to move, he moved them.

He took over a team that never got injured, we got hit hard this year.

Marner's agent handcuffed us into adding LTIR money so we can't add players this year.

This team is still in a playoff spot, and will likely be there again. The team hasn't gone south lol

Even if you hate the Kadri deal, The Aves are just 3 points ahead of us in the standings. It's not like Kadri made them some unbeatable god-like team while Kerfoot and Barrie dragged us through the mud.

I am only judging Dubas on the team's overall on ice performance and it has been dreadful since Jan 1. It comes down to roster construction which he is responsible for. He paid the big 3 what they wanted but it is clear they are not prepared, willing or simply not able to carry the load as he expected and paid them to do.

He also failed to upgrade the D when it has been abundantly clear that it needed upgrading since Lou was here.

I do not think Lou let's the big 3 own him in contract negotiations.

 

[Trapper]

You can't just forget those steps to make your point though.

You make it seem like we pulled a hipster off the street and threw him into the GM job lol

Some would say being a GM in junior is harder sometimes than the NHL because you deal with stricter roster rules, player reporting issues, managing kids in high school and their families, amongst several other things.

He has as much experience as most other new GM's in this league and has done better than most.

He took over a team that had bad contracts to move, he moved them.

He took over a team that never got injured, we got hit hard this year.

Marner's agent handcuffed us into adding LTIR money so we can't add players this year.

This team is still in a playoff spot, and will likely be there again. The team hasn't gone south lol

Even if you hate the Kadri deal, The Aves are just 3 points ahead of us in the standings. It's not like Kadri made them some unbeatable god-like team while Kerfoot and Barrie dragged us through the mud.

Blaming isn’t going to fix the now. The immediate issues. Every level of GM will make mistakes. What do you do to fix them? Can you admit that some thinking is not for all situations.
That will separate the good from the bad.
Burke refused to admit other ways. Some coaches refuse to accept different ideas.
Don’t be someone who says it must all be this way when it takes a combination of skill with drive, passion, defense, etc to be a team.

just start fixing it. Identify the problems, take steps to correct. Even if the choices are hard choices.

 

[ACC1224]

Also, no other team has seen fit to hire Hunter.

Aside from that ita downright goofy to judge Dubas as a failure 20 months into the job when hes still cleaning up the mess of the former GM (which should be complete with the 1st going to Carolina).

What teams turned Hunter away?

 

[Menzinger]

Also, no other team has seen fit to hire Hunter.

Aside from that its downright goofy to judge Dubas as a failure 20 months into the job when hes still cleaning up the mess of the former GM (which should be complete with the 1st going to Carolina).

Where i fall on things. Dubas isnt immune from criticism. But its hard to get a full idea of with less than 2 full seasons under his direction

And re Hunter, i dont have strong feelings either way on the man. But unfortunately ive got a bad feeling in retrospect we may look back on the Leafs drafting 2015-2017 in a few years (1st round selections aside) in not that positive of a light....

So far only 1/5 of of the 2nd round selections has shown to be a consistent NHLer (so far). And certainly none of them look to be impact players

 

[GoonieFace]

I would have said neither. I would have kept Lou around and have him knock some sense into Dubas. Just wasn't the right time to hand the reins to the Excel wizard

 

[Menzinger]

What teams turned Hunter away?

He was reportedly interviewed for the Wilds last gm opening.

Its reminding me a bit of Futa, a name who pops up here and there everytime theres a new GM position but never really gets to the final group