Hindsight - Dubas or Hunter?

[GoonieFace]

Lol, this place.

Dubas isn't the problem with the team, and I've already said, this season actually gives me more faith in Dubas than I had before.

The only reason the Leafs are in this position is because they held on to Babcock for too long, something you know Dubas' would have taken care of in the summer if he could.

Yes the Leafs are struggling right now, but that happens with every team, it's only magnified because their isn't much room for error thanks to the Babcock start.

We can't just ignore that under Keefe they've been racking up points at an elite pace, and that's with trash goaltending.

There isn't a single move that Dubas made that is killing the team, he can't control bad goaltending and injuries.

I heard if you pinch yourself you wake up from your dream...

 

[carosey12]

You completely undermined any point you were trying to make, when you put in a petty comment like "kyle flexing ego muscles". It demonstrates very clearly you have a bias against the GM, and throws the value of the rest of your post into question.

I'm not sure there is a single NHL GM who wouldn't have tried to sign Tavares in Dubas' shoes.

...and u r entitled to your opinion, as I stated, my post was my opinion, and I disagree with your reply...kyle was trying to win over the fans, and make a statement as a new gm...it was obvious then, and still is today..but thank you.

 

[Cams]

He wins a Cup , with this team, in this city... there will be a statue of him at Pearson, Union station and at the CN tower.

I want a statue on the Windsor side of the new bridge too, him holding a Welcome to Canada sign!

I think best case scenario as it stands today..... see if they can get something for Barrie. Be it futures, or picks, maybe a D to replace him (even if expiring). Sounds like Ceci, and Johnsson are not going to able to be traded, so that doesn't leave many other options. Kapanen? Not really much value for Timashov, Bracco, Gauthier..... maybe recoup something for these guys? Move Barrie and ride out the season, hope for the best, then start fresh in the summer.

Sounds like Muzzin is a done deal, Rielly will be healthy, Sandin, Liljegren, and Holl are the D going into next year. Nothing in the pipeline coming on D that I know coming from the system in the near future (Kral maybe......Kokkanen?) This is the obvious throbbing sore that needs to be healed. Maybe it's moving Kerfoot, AJ, Korshkov to get some D help. There is not a 1st or a 3rd this year to move, can't move next years 1st, or this year's 2nd. So really, hands are tied.

I don't think the Barrie trade worked out as planned - although his offensive numbers have been great under Keefe. Kerfoot......probably a disappointment, but what were his expectations? Kadri pretty much forced himself out of town with the consecutive playoff suspensions.

I am just as impatient as many, but with the number of injuries this year, it has really impacted what Dubas has been able to do on the trade front. Lots of trade chips just not in play to get the help on D they need. No matter who is GM this year, this year has been a disaster with injuries, etc. yet still hanging onto 3rd in division. Just write this year off and take a hard look at the make up of the team in the offseason.

 

[93LEAFS]

Well the answer is Dubas or other. Dubas has done a better job than Lou, and he's a much better candidate than Hunter. There is a reason multiple teams have passed on Hunter for their GM jobs and he had to go back to the OHL.

I'd consider 'other', but what are the candidates? Most of the few great experienced GM's are employed so are we picking from the crappy ones like Chiarelli, Fenton and Holland? Because I would take Dubas over any of them every day of the week. Who would be the best person for the job? Don Sweeney (Boston), Julien Brisebois (Tampa), Steve Yzerman (Tampa/Detroit), Joe Sakic (Colorado), Doug Armstrong (St. Louis), Jim Rutherford (Pittsburgh), George McPhee (Vegas), etc. Maybe, but none of them were available for our job.

Sweeney was the GM of the Year and Boston made the Cup Finals last year but he only has 5 years of NHL GM experience. His first two years, he missed the playoffs entirely, and he inherited a team that made the Cup Finals two years prior and made the Conference SF the year before. So they were not a bad team. It took him 4 playoffs to win a round as GM, before getting all the way to the Finals in year 5. It took Doug Armstrong 10 years as STL GM to win a Cup, and he was GM of the Year early in his tenure too. He had 5+ years of GM experience going in as well. Both of them had experience in other NHL roles as well. Jim Rutherford has 3 Cups, but he only made the playoffs 5 times in 16 years with the Hurricanes (2 QF losses, one CF loss, one SC Loss and one Cup) before taking over the Pens and winning 2 Cups in his first 3 years.

Dubas had 4 years of experience as an AGM getting personally groomed by easily the most experienced GM in the league before becoming a GM. The same amount of front office experience as Yzerman had before becoming Tampa's GM (and he had a very bumpy ride with Tampa before and while they had success) and more front office experience than Sakic had before becoming Colorado's GM.

All of these great GM's had to start somewhere. Some did not work out with the first team that hired them as GM, and most required multiple years as GM, even if they inherited a contending team or had a ton of prior experience, before they found any kind of success... And that success was not even a Cup most of the time.

The difference for Dubas is that he is in a fishbowl in Toronto where there are (rightfully) lofty expectations to win soon and win often with a lot of (once again rightfully) impatient fans... And based on the comments made on here, likely a lot of older impatient fans who believe this is just some hot shot kid who has no idea what he is doing... He knows what he is doing. There may be some things he will need to change with the roster and not everything is working out exactly as planned (both within and completely out of is control), but that is just the nature of the job. It would be no different for any other GM in Dubas' position... But he knows what he is doing.

As it stands right now, I have full confidence in Dubas as a GM, just like I would any other GM who has shown to be as capable as Dubas has been thus far. And I will continue to have confidence in him until he starts making decisions that makes me question him otherwise. Maybe that is in 2 years. Maybe that is in 20 years. Who knows. All I will know is that if it does, it does not justify any of the current irrational behaviour displayed by many Leafs fans right now. Nothing except (rightful) frustration and impatience after most have never seen a Cup... Neither of which should not be impacting those making decisions.

Dubas wasn't getting groomed by Lou. Lou pretty quickly realized they didn't see eye to eye and forced him into a small corner of the organization (which was Marlies and the analytics team). He also promoted Hunter to be on par with Dubas to make that statement. That's why Dubas tried to force his way into a lateral move to Colorado which Shanahan blocked it. Then when push came to shove, Shanahan chose to move on from Lou to promote Dubas.

The reason expectations are high for Dubas, is that most teams don't force out a highly respected GM to replace them after they have improved in two successive seasons. Most GM's inherit a full rebuilding or re-tool job. Very few ever get the opportunity Dubas was handed, which is a ready-made young core coming off a 105 point season with a team that has more financial muscle than almost any other team in the league. The issue isn't Dubas hasn't won a cup. The issue is the team appears to have regressed under his watch, when there was no real reason to expect that when he got the job. I mean, you were looking at a team whose three key core players going forward were two 20 year old forwards and a 23-year-old defender.

I think he'll get another year, but the regression of this team so far under his watch does not inspire confidence.

 

[93LEAFS]

He was reportedly interviewed for the Wilds last gm opening.

Its reminding me a bit of Futa, a name who pops up here and there everytime theres a new GM position but never really gets to the final group

Oilers interviewed him heavily. He was likely to get it until Holland decided to leave Detroit.

 

[yubbers]

Hindsight wasn't needed to determine Babcock and Dubas wouldn't work well together.

#fireshanny

 

[Ifittex il Verita]

Considering Dubas is the worst hire in franchise history, I’d choose several people ahead of him.

In fact, there’s several HF posters with better hockey resumes than Dubas. I’d prefer most of them at this point.

Not that I like Dubas or anything but you don't have to turn the clock back very far to see worse hires than him.

The major downfall is you couldn't have drawn up a worse GM on paper for the situation we were in with our kids needing to be signed.

 

[sparxx87]

Not that I like Dubas or anything but you don't have to turn the clock back very far to see worse hires than him.

The major downfall is you couldn't have drawn up a worse GM on paper for the situation we were in with our kids needing to be signed.

That’s fair. I’m speaking relative to expectations, inherited roster, and the HOF’er that was sent packing to make the hire.

JFJ or Burke inherited a fraction of the talent.

You’re absolutely right about the situation - with the looming RFA’s, bringing in a rookie whose never negotiated a contact was inconceivable.

 

[killer1980]

If Leafs were in the Atlantic Division, they probably wouldn't even make the playoffs. 2 Years ago they finished tied for 6th overall. This year they are barely hanging on to 14th. It plain to see that this team has regressed badly since Dubas took over. The biggest issue we had when he took over was defense. He has addressed ever issue but that. He took away the few players that wanted to stick their nose in there and get dirty. I see zero improvement in any position since he took over. The Board got what they wanted, a yes man with no talent.

 

[stickty111]

Hunter is terrible. I'm happy with Dubas. If Hunter is so good, why hasn't an NHL team hired him yet? He isn't good enough for the NHL.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Pretty simple question, if you had to do it all over again would you have picked Hunter to be GM over Dubas.

Kept Lou as GM?

Hired another person to be GM?

Neither. Probably kept Lou or try to swipe a top exec with money.

 

[killer1980]

Hunter is terrible. I'm happy with Dubas. If Hunter is so good, why hasn't an NHL team hired him yet? He isn't good enough for the NHL.

If Dubas is so good why are we now tied for 14th and struggling to make the playoffs.

 

[93LEAFS]

That’s fair. I’m speaking relative to expectations, inherited roster, and the HOF’er that was sent packing to make the hire.

JFJ or Burke inherited a fraction of the talent.

JFJ inherited a bunch of veteran talent. The issue was, Leafs weren't well set-up for the cap world and he couldn't navigate that. He never figured out how to replace Belfour, and made arguably his biggest mistake trying to rectify that issue.

Burke inherited basically nothing, but then foolishly decided that building a team around Phil Kessel was worth trading two first round picks completely misjudging how bad we were and thought signing guys like Armstrong, Komasarik and Beauchimin would be enough to turn us into a fringe playoff team. Instead, the trade cost us a 2nd overall pick, a 9th overall pick, and a 32nd overall pick to a division rival giving them cheap high-end young talent as they were about to enter a cap-crunch.

 

[justafan22]

What did Lou do with the defense lmao?

Zaitsev/Hainsey were his big signings

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Its clear that Babcock was not the only problem. The assembled roster is just as much and that's on Dumbass.

 

[Ifittex il Verita]

That’s fair. I’m speaking relative to expectations, inherited roster, and the HOF’er that was sent packing to make the hire.

JFJ or Burke inherited a fraction of the talent.

You’re absolutely right about the situation - with the looming RFA’s, bringing in a rookie whose never negotiated a contact was inconceivable.

The looming RFA's and the giant hole on D that everyone and their dog could see that Dubas thinks would just figure itself out.

I may be insane but I honestly think JFJ might have managed it better.

 

[1specter]

Hunter is overrated and has the success he does due to being able to manipulate the system and do under the table stuff in the OHL that he can't do at the NHL level.

Dubas has to be better but I still prefer him to Hunter.

 

[Menzinger]

JFJ inherited a bunch of veteran talent. The issue was, Leafs weren't well set-up for the cap world and he couldn't navigate that. He never figured out how to replace Belfour, and made arguably his biggest mistake trying to rectify that issue.

Burke inherited basically nothing, but then foolishly decided that building a team around Phil Kessel was worth trading two first round picks completely misjudging how bad we were and thought signing guys like Armstrong, Komasarik and Beauchimin would be enough to turn us into a fringe playoff team. Instead, the trade cost us a 2nd overall pick, a 9th overall pick, and a 32nd overall pick to a division rival giving them cheap high-end young talent as they were about to enter a cap-crunch.

Yep,

Biggest issue for the 2000s and early 2010s was management not realizng that the salary cap era was a whole new ballgame when ot came to teambuilding

 

[thewave]

The looming RFA's and the giant hole on D that everyone and their dog could see that Dubas thinks would just figure itself out.

I may be insane but I honestly think JFJ might have managed it better.

JFJ got Larry Tannenbombed. Everyone knows it, Ballard 2.0 stopped him from rebuilding it right. Stavros sold TPP came in and made LT the man. LT is a hidden Melnyk, only difference is Eugene opens his yap to the media.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Dubas wasn't getting groomed by Lou. Lou pretty quickly realized they didn't see eye to eye and forced him into a small corner of the organization (which was Marlies and the analytics team). He also promoted Hunter to be on par with Dubas to make that statement. That's why Dubas tried to force his way into a lateral move to Colorado which Shanahan blocked it. Then when push came to shove, Shanahan chose to move on from Lou to promote Dubas.

The reason expectations are high for Dubas, is that most teams don't force out a highly respected GM to replace them after they have improved in two successive seasons. Most GM's inherit a full rebuilding or re-tool job. Very few ever get the opportunity Dubas was handed, which is a ready-made young core coming off a 105 point season with a team that has more financial muscle than almost any other team in the league. The issue isn't Dubas hasn't won a cup. The issue is the team appears to have regressed under his watch, when there was no real reason to expect that when he got the job. I mean, you were looking at a team whose three key core players going forward were two 20 year old forwards and a 23-year-old defender.

I think he'll get another year, but the regression of this team so far under his watch does not inspire confidence.

As a point of order, you do realize that almost the whole 105 point team was inherited? The one piece (and in fairness it was a big piece) to Lou's credit was Andersen. I mean you could give credit for Matthews but that was literally an obvious 1st overall pick. Point being that pretending Lou was a genius assembling something out of nothing couldn't be further from the truth. Additionally, our biggest issue then (as now) was defense and in 3 years all he did to address it was bring in Polak, Hainsey, Borgman, Rosen and Zaitsev. This is Dubas' current biggest challenge.

 

[Dough72]

he inherited maybe the most high-end star talent in all of hockey. He was gift-wrapped like 6 allstar level players on his roster. The only thing that could screw that up is putting a terrible support cast around them. And so far that looks like exactly what he has done.

 

[ryno23]

If Dubas is so good why are we now tied for 14th and struggling to make the playoffs.

injuries and a stubborn coach. Dubas was able to fix one but his fault guys are getting injured

 

[93LEAFS]

As a point of order, you do realize that almost the whole 105 point team was inherited? The one piece (and in fairness it was a big piece) to Lou's credit was Andersen. I mean you could give credit for Matthews but that was literally an obvious 1st overall pick. Point being that pretending Lou was a genius assembling something out of nothing couldn't be further from the truth. Additionally, our biggest issue then (as now) was defense and in 3 years all he did to address it was bring in Polak, Hainsey, Borgman, Rosen and Zaitsev. This is Dubas' current biggest challenge.

Except the team seemed to constantly improve under Lou. It hasn't under Dubas. Lou seemed to bring an air of accountability that has been lost since. He also seemed to somewhat quell the media frenzy around the team by controlling leaks much better. The team seems to have actually regressed since he left. Lou really had one off-season of trying to turn this team into a contender. 2015-16 was about a tear-down (plus he didn't get hired until late-July), and 2016-17 we weren't even supposed to make the playoffs. Dubas has had two where the clear goal was to contend, yet we are currently without a 1st round pick and are fighting for our playoff lives.

Lou also got young talent on good long-term deals such as Rielly and Kadri.

I mean, our big need last summer was a defensive RHD who was a capable puck mover. Instead, we traded Kadri for a RHD puck-mover who can't play tougher than middle-pairing 5v5 minutes and is terrible defensively.

 

[sparxx87]

JFJ inherited a bunch of veteran talent. The issue was, Leafs weren't well set-up for the cap world and he couldn't navigate that. He never figured out how to replace Belfour, and made arguably his biggest mistake trying to rectify that issue.

Burke inherited basically nothing, but then foolishly decided that building a team around Phil Kessel was worth trading two first round picks completely misjudging how bad we were and thought signing guys like Armstrong, Komasarik and Beauchimin would be enough to turn us into a fringe playoff team. Instead, the trade cost us a 2nd overall pick, a 9th overall pick, and a 32nd overall pick to a division rival giving them cheap high-end young talent as they were about to enter a cap-crunch.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not endorsing either of them, but I think they just made a big mess while trying to clean up another mess.

Dubas inherited a young core that was on the rise and it appears they’ve been going the wrong way ever since. It’s almost hard to believe they aren’t a lock for the playoffs, but here they are... and without a first round pick.

 

[yubbers]

Except the team seemed to constantly improve under Lou. It hasn't under Dubas. Lou seemed to bring an air of accountability that has been lost since. He also seemed to somewhat quell the media frenzy around the team by controlling leaks much better. The team seems to have actually regressed since he left. Lou really had one off-season of trying to turn this team into a contender. 2015-16 was about a tear-down, and 2016-17 we weren't even supposed to make the playoffs. Dubas has had two where the clear goal was to contend, yet we are currently without a 1st round pick and are fighting for our playoff lives.

Lou is a strict father that pisses you off on occasion with their strict rules and discipline. Millionaire teenagers kinda need that.
Dubas is the stepdad that tries to be your friend instead of parenting. And buys you expensive gifts to try and buy your love. Catering to your micro aggressions and triggers. PC culture has taken over the Leafs brass. That's really bad news for us fans. They won't go broke from getting woke. But they'll be real bad at hockey.