Hindsight - Dubas or Hunter?

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Hunter or Dubas?


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Except the team seemed to constantly improve under Lou. It hasn't under Dubas. Lou seemed to bring an air of accountability that has been lost since. He also seemed to somewhat quell the media frenzy around the team by controlling leaks much better. The team seems to have actually regressed since he left. Lou really had one off-season of trying to turn this team into a contender. 2015-16 was about a tear-down (plus he didn't get hired until late-July), and 2016-17 we weren't even supposed to make the playoffs. Dubas has had two where the clear goal was to contend, yet we are currently without a 1st round pick and are fighting for our playoff lives.

Lou also got young talent on good long-term deals such as Rielly and Kadri.

I mean, our big need last summer was a defensive RHD who was a capable puck mover. Instead, we traded Kadri for a RHD puck-mover who can't play tougher than middle-pairing 5v5 minutes and is terrible defensively.

How much of the "improve" links to goaltending results?

The good deals you speak of were nothing more than market deals. Look at their production when signed and tell me they could have gotten more. The guys Dubas signed were guys that had near top of the league production on ELC.

Our big need forever was defense and Lou brought us Polak, Hainsey, Zaitsev, Rosen and Borgman in 3 years. It's been 21 months and we've gotten Muzzin and Barrie. Obviously we'd like more but it's a step up from what Lou managed in 3 years. Hopefully it keeps getting better.
 
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If Leafs were in the Atlantic Division, they probably wouldn't even make the playoffs. 2 Years ago they finished tied for 6th overall. This year they are barely hanging on to 14th. It plain to see that this team has regressed badly since Dubas took over. The biggest issue we had when he took over was defense. He has addressed ever issue but that. He took away the few players that wanted to stick their nose in there and get dirty. I see zero improvement in any position since he took over. The Board got what they wanted, a yes man with no talent.

Leafs are in the Atlantic division along with Boston, Tampa, Montreal, Florida, Buffalo, Detroit and Ottawa. You are thinking of the Metropolitan.
 
It's hard to imagine a GM taking a young, talented team with 105 point season and then blowing it up into the mess it is today
 
dealing anyone other than JT would be a mistake

if we had a GM with a pair of balls he'd sit JT down and explain how this isn't working out and to give a list of teams he'd be willing to be traded to

Im not a Dubas fan but once you do something so stupid like that good luck signing a big name UFA for a LONG time.

Wont mean **** if hes a "good ol Toranna Boy" or "my favorite team since birth has been the Leafs" its not happening. The next big name will be looking anywhere but here.

For Christs sake hes had 1, ONE! bad season so far out of two years into that contract. Did you forget he almost hit 50 goals last year along with 88 points?
 
How much of the "improve" links to goaltending results?

The good deals you speak of were nothing more than market deals. Look at their production when signed and tell me they could have gotten more. The guys Dubas signed were guys that had near top of the league production on ELC.

Our big need forever was defense and Lou brought us Polak, Hainsey, Zaitsev, Rosen and Borgman in 3 years. It's been 21 months and we've gotten Muzzin and Barrie. Obviously we'd like more but it's a step up from what Lou managed in 3 years. Hopefully it keeps getting better.
It's not though. Our d core is 1000xs worse than last years. Blame the goalies all you want. ANdy isn't the variable. The Dubas built blue line is. How can people keep arguing being worse is better? It'slike I'm taking crazy pills. There's nothing better about this d to last years. And the numbers make that very clear. Make your d worse.....your goalies are gonna have a bad time.
 
It's tough to follow a guy like Lou. It's impossible to follow a guy like Lou when you have no experience and no reputation. When the previous boss ruled with an iron fist, the employees are always going to push the new guy just to see how much they can get away with.
 
How much of the "improve" links to goaltending results?

The good deals you speak of were nothing more than market deals. Look at their production when signed and tell me they could have gotten more. The guys Dubas signed were guys that had near top of the league production on ELC.

Our big need forever was defense and Lou brought us Polak, Hainsey, Zaitsev, Rosen and Borgman in 3 years. It's been 21 months and we've gotten Muzzin and Barrie. Obviously we'd like more but it's a step up from what Lou managed in 3 years. Hopefully it keeps getting better.
Except you seem to be ignoring organizational philosophy and timing. It made no sense to trade 1st rounders early on in Lou's tenure for defensive help, something Dubas did to acquire 1.5 years of Muzzin, and trading Kadri was a no-go until Matthews emerged, and even then he was our 2nd line center. Muzzin was brought in essentially with the cap-space freed up by Gardiner leaving.

Hainsey was better for us than Barrie, because he actually brought the best out of Rielly, whereas Barrie can't handle tough usage at 5v5, and filled in for Rielly on the PP making minimal improvements from where it was the last 3 years. Barrie was a luxury who didn't fit in at all. He has name recognition, but he was a terrible fit for this team.

The team improved significantly under Lou. You may want to diminish that fine. But, the team had no real reason to regress two years in a row when you looked at the core of the team that Dubas was handed. He got two 20-year-old elite young forwards, a 24-year-old number 1 defenceman and a capable starting goalie. Somehow, in two years we've gone from a young team on the upswing that got 105 points, to a team fighting for a playoff spot after regressing the previous year. You may not think Lou was the answer. But, I don't know how people can think of anything over the last 2 seasons as anything but a disappointment unless this team dramatically turns it around over the next 2 months.
 
Im not a Dubas fan but once you do something so stupid like that good luck signing a big name UFA for a LONG time.

Wont mean **** if hes a "good ol Toranna Boy" or "my favorite team since birth has been the Leafs" its not happening. The next big name will be looking anywhere but here.

For Christs sake hes had 1, ONE! bad season so far out of two years into that contract. Did you forget he almost hit 50 goals last year along with 88 points?
Tavares has a full-NTC. The idea of trading him is fan-fiction without any basis in reality.
 
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It's not though. Our d core is 1000xs worse than last years. Blame the goalies all you want. ANdy isn't the variable. The Dubas built blue line is. How can people keep arguing being worse is better? It'slike I'm taking crazy pills. There's nothing better about this d to last years. And the numbers make that very clear. Make your d worse.....your goalies are gonna have a bad time.

I was talking about 2 d-men versus the 5 brought in. Both are unquestionably better than anything Lou brought in. This doesn't mean a guy like Barrie doesn't have obvious warts. As for the D as a whole, our top guy has seemingly been fighting an injury much of the season and/or out of the lineup period along with our number two. We are relying on a guy like Ceci on a temporary 1 year basis while some of the reinforcements arrive from the farm.

Andersen's issues have been far more than D. He has let in some absolute stinkers.
 
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Except you seem to be ignoring organizational philosophy and timing. It made no sense to trade 1st rounders early on in Lou's tenure for defensive help, something Dubas did to acquire 1.5 years of Muzzin, and trading Kadri was a no-go until Matthews emerged, and even then he was our 2nd line center. Muzzin was brought in essentially with the cap-space freed up by Gardiner leaving.

Hainsey was better for us than Barrie, because he actually brought the best out of Rielly, whereas Barrie can't handle tough usage at 5v5, and filled in for Rielly on the PP making minimal improvements from where it was the last 3 years. Barrie was a luxury who didn't fit in at all. He has name recognition, but he was a terrible fit for this team.

The team improved significantly under Lou. You may want to diminish that fine. But, the team had no real reason to regress two years in a row when you looked at the core of the team that Dubas was handed. He got two 20-year-old elite young forwards, a 24-year-old number 1 defenceman and a capable starting goalie. Somehow, in two years we've gone from a young team on the upswing that got 105 points, to a team fighting for a playoff spot after regressing the previous year. You may not think Lou was the answer. But, I don't know how people can think of anything over the last 2 seasons as anything but a disappointment unless this team dramatically turns it around over the next 2 months.

Hainsey I was always a bigger fan of than most here. Mostly because he is a great complementary guy (also the reason I was hoping we'd get Demelo).

Last year wasn't regressive to me. We lost points but mainly due to the shootout, which has nothing to do with hockey. Now we did have a poor back half of the season but it looks like a lot of that may have been linked to Babcock. Can't say for sure but there are some things that came out.

I can't put much stock into this year from an evaluation perspective due to all the injuries. Personally I need to see how it functions when it's actually in place. The one concern I would have (regardless of injury) is consistent compete level. Don't like what I am seeing there.
 
I was talking about 2 d-men versus the 5 brought in. Both are unquestionably better than anything Lou brought in. This doesn't mean a guy like Barrie doesn't have obvious warts. As for the D as a whole, our top guy has seemingly been fighting an injury much of the season and/or out of the lineup period along with our number two. We are relying on a guy like Ceci on a temporary 1 year basis while some of the reinforcements arrive from the farm.

Andersen's issues have been far more than D. He has let in some absolute stinkers.

Muzzin is the only move Kyle has ade I like.

So Reily started the season injured? He probably looked his worse the first 20 games or so. If that's the case then the training staff needs to be fired. why not let him heal early on? You wait to deal with it when he'll be out down the strech? That makes no sense.

Kyle was all in this year. The Barrie deal makes that clear. That's the scariest part. kyle actually thought this team had a chance. eeesh.

It's always excuses. Kyles team sucks cause of Babs! Now it's Kyles team sucks cause of goalies. What's ANdys sv% numbers this year with Babs and Keefe? Keefes systems seem to be another variable that's getting the goalies lit up.
This team is just built wrong.
 
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Hainsey I was always a bigger fan of than most here. Mostly because he is a great complementary guy (also the reason I was hoping we'd get Demelo).

Last year wasn't regressive to me. We lost points but mainly due to the shootout, which has nothing to do with hockey. Now we did have a poor back half of the season but it looks like a lot of that may have been linked to Babcock. Can't say for sure but there are some things that came out.

I can't put much stock into this year from an evaluation perspective due to all the injuries. Personally I need to see how it functions when it's actually in place. The one concern I would have (regardless of injury) is consistent compete level. Don't like what I am seeing there.
The team hasn't improved at all in 2 full years, and there is a strong argument for it actually regressing. The issue with trying to blame it on Babs for last year is just too simplistic, given the team also improved the previous 2 years under him. Is he stubborn and difficult, absolutely. But, that doesn't absolve Dubas. Dubas also took the job full-well knowing he inherited Babcock and thought he could make it work. Instead, they both actively underminded each other because they viewed this teams path to success as very different roads.

The injuries can only be blamed so much. Good teams persevere through them. Look at Pitt.
 
Dubas wasn't getting groomed by Lou. Lou pretty quickly realized they didn't see eye to eye and forced him into a small corner of the organization (which was Marlies and the analytics team). He also promoted Hunter to be on par with Dubas to make that statement. That's why Dubas tried to force his way into a lateral move to Colorado which Shanahan blocked it. Then when push came to shove, Shanahan chose to move on from Lou to promote Dubas.

The reason expectations are high for Dubas, is that most teams don't force out a highly respected GM to replace them after they have improved in two successive seasons. Most GM's inherit a full rebuilding or re-tool job. Very few ever get the opportunity Dubas was handed, which is a ready-made young core coming off a 105 point season with a team that has more financial muscle than almost any other team in the league. The issue isn't Dubas hasn't won a cup. The issue is the team appears to have regressed under his watch, when there was no real reason to expect that when he got the job. I mean, you were looking at a team whose three key core players going forward were two 20 year old forwards and a 23-year-old defender.

I think he'll get another year, but the regression of this team so far under his watch does not inspire confidence.

Dubas wasn't getting groomed by Lou.

Lou and Shanahan right after Lou was hired.

10 questions after Lamoriello hiring - TSN.ca

Is Lou Lamoriello grooming assistant GM Kyle Dubas to be the Leafs' next general manager?
Brendan Shanahan said Lamoriello will mentor everyone on the Leafs' staff, including the president himself. No one person has more room to grow or learn in the Maple Leafs' front office than Dubas, who was not yet one-year-old when Lamoriello took over in New Jersey in 1987.

The expectation of Dubas one day becoming a GM was mentioned for the first time by Lamoriello on Thursday - perhaps giving him a leg up for the future over longtime hockey man Mark Hunter.

"I think he's a young fellow who has tremendous abilities," Lamoriello said. "I know of his background. If he doesn't become general manager here, and I'm not going to be here for a lifetime, it's going to be his fault."

Dubas, 28, took trade calls from the NHL's other 29 general managers before the draft and free agent season, playing a role in the departure of Phil Kessel. Lamoriello's hiring was a sign Dubas was not yet ready to take on that role full-time.

Lamoriello's contract is three years in length. It is the first time in Lamoriello's 28-year NHL career that details on the length of his contract have been made public. Even though he is not joining the Maple Leafs "for a lifetime," Lamoriello indicated he'd be interested in staying longer than just three years.

The conversation might be quite different three years from now. Dubas will no longer be green, for sure, after working under Lamoriello.

Lou pretty quickly realized they didn't see eye to eye and forced him into a small corner of the organization (which was Marlies and the analytics team). He also promoted Hunter to be on par with Dubas to make that statement.

Absolutely no substantiated proof of them not seeing eye-ot-eye. Additionally, a lot of AGM's take on the responsibility of GM for the AHL squad, including many of the AGM's that eventually became GM's. Were they all forced into small corners of their organizations.

As for Hunter, none of his duties changed. He simply received a change in title.

Maple Leafs name Mark Hunter Assistant General Manager

“Mark's new title is essentially a formality as these are duties he’s already been performing,” said Maple Leafs General Manager Lou Lamoriello. “Brendan and I have been discussing this change of title since last season – as it’s a more appropriate recognition of Mark's role with the organization since joining the Maple Leafs. There are no changes to Mark or Kyle’s duties, or to that of Brandon Pridham, Assistant to the General Manager.”

When Hunter left, we hired a new Director of Player Personnel to replace him (Wes Clark).

That's why Dubas tried to force his way into a lateral move to Colorado which Shanahan blocked it.

Shanahan did not block it, and there was nothing said about it being a lateral move. There was no formal indication of what it was, only speculation that it could have been that he replaces Sakic as GM while Sakic continues handling his other duties within the organization.

Maple Leafs grant Avalanche permission to speak with Kyle Dubas - Sportsnet.ca

On COL/Dubas, as mentioned on-air, not sure where it stands. But there were conversations. Question is: still a possibility or closed-off? — Elliotte Friedman (@FriedgeHNIC) May 24, 2017

There were also rumours from Friedman regarding Arizona having interest in Dubas as GM, but that he had no interest in becoming an NHL GM at that point. The Coyotes owner later disputed those claims however.

Then when push came to shove, Shanahan chose to move on from Lou to promote Dubas.

When push came to shove, he made the decision he felt was the best for the future direction of the organization. Not that you have said it (but many others with your position have), the Leafs did not fire Lou. They chose to not extend him and were following the plan that was expected from the day Lou was hired. Lou may not have liked the outcome, but he certainly knew from day 1 that it was the most likely scenario to occur.

As for what Dubas had to navigate, he had to navigate figuring out how to pay 3 of his young core players and did so while also managing to add another franchise center for nothing but money by making the team one of the most cap efficient in the league. That was a retool, and one much more difficult than many other GM's have had to deal with. He managed to make teams that are a lot more competitive than Lou's team (which was, as I said before, boosted by shootouts and near perfect health) despite facing immaturity, inconsistencies and injuries. He had 4 more ROW last year than that 105 point team, and under Keefe (with the same roster) is on pace to match that 105 pace with more ROW's. He still has a lot more work to do, but the work he's done is a whole lot better than the negative recognition he is currently receiving suggests. It is simply blind bias that people are failing to even admit they have.
 
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The team hasn't improved at all in 2 full years, and there is a strong argument for it actually regressing. The issue with trying to blame it on Babs for last year is just too simplistic, given the team also improved the previous 2 years under him. Is he stubborn and difficult, absolutely. But, that doesn't absolve Dubas. Dubas also took the job full-well knowing he inherited Babcock and thought he could make it work. Instead, they both actively underminded each other because they viewed this teams path to success as very different roads.

The injuries can only be blamed so much. Good teams persevere through them. Look at Pitt.

A hard-ass boss that demands accountability is considered abuse to these powder puffs. We're f***ed. Dubas has instilled a weak, sheltered culture where he probably hugs everyone after every game and asks if they had fun. :p
 
A hard-ass boss that demands accountability is considered abuse to these powder puffs. We're f*cked. Dubas has instilled a weak, sheltered culture where he probably hugs everyone after every game and asks if they had fun. :p

Are you for real or here for comedy relief?
 
Im not a Dubas fan but once you do something so stupid like that good luck signing a big name UFA for a LONG time.

Wont mean **** if hes a "good ol Toranna Boy" or "my favorite team since birth has been the Leafs" its not happening. The next big name will be looking anywhere but here.

For Christs sake hes had 1, ONE! bad season so far out of two years into that contract. Did you forget he almost hit 50 goals last year along with 88 points?
it's not about JT having a poor season , it's about freeing up cap space to address the teams issues

also just because you sign a UFA doesn't mean your tied to that guy for life and the rest of players around the league won't give a damn since they'll do what's best for themselves and if that's coming to Toronto they will

players sign for different reasons , some want to go to a winner , others want to play in a certain city and some just want the biggest payday so while there's some places that are less desirable the fact is trading JT won't make Toronto any less a desirable destination
 
Imagine having a player hold out on you for months....only to promise they will never be traded as long as you're GM once signed.

Might as well have kissed his boot. Only a weak idiot would back themselves into a corner like that. Because he wants to be everyone's friend.
 
Dubas wasn't getting groomed by Lou.

Lou and Shanahan right after Lou was hired.

10 questions after Lamoriello hiring - TSN.ca



Lou pretty quickly realized they didn't see eye to eye and forced him into a small corner of the organization (which was Marlies and the analytics team). He also promoted Hunter to be on par with Dubas to make that statement.

Absolutely no substantiated proof of them not seeing eye-ot-eye. Additionally, a lot of AGM's take on the responsibility of GM for the AHL squad, including many of the AGM's that eventually became GM's. Were they all forced into small corners of their organizations.

As for Hunter, none of his duties changed. He simply received a change in title.

Maple Leafs name Mark Hunter Assistant General Manager



When Hunter left, we hired a new Director of Player Personnel to replace him (Wes Clark).

That's why Dubas tried to force his way into a lateral move to Colorado which Shanahan blocked it.

Shanahan did not block it, and there was nothing said about it being a lateral move. There was no formal indication of what it was, only speculation that it could have been that he replaces Sakic as GM while Sakic continues handling his other duties within the organization.

Maple Leafs grant Avalanche permission to speak with Kyle Dubas - Sportsnet.ca



There were also rumours from Friedman regarding Arizona having interest in Dubas as GM, but that he had no interest in becoming an NHL GM at that point. The Coyotes owner later disputed those claims however.

Then when push came to shove, Shanahan chose to move on from Lou to promote Dubas.

When push came to shove, he made the decision he felt was the best for the future direction of the organization. Not that you have said it (but many others with your position have), the Leafs did not fire Lou. They chose to not extend him and were following the plan that was expected from the day Lou was hired. Lou may not have liked the outcome, but he certainly knew from day 1 that it was the most likely scenario to occur.

As for what Dubas had to navigate, he had to navigate figuring out how to pay 3 of his young core players and did so while also managing to add another franchise center for nothing but money by making the team one of the most cap efficient in the league. That was a retool, and one much more difficult than many other GM's have had to deal with. He managed to make teams that are a lot more competitive than Lou's team (which was, as I said before, boosted by shootouts and near perfect health) despite facing immaturity, inconsistencies and injuries. He had 4 more ROW last year than that 105 point team, and under Keefe (with the same roster) is on pace to match that 105 pace with more ROW's. He still has a lot more work to do, but the work he's done is a whole lot better than the negative recognition he is currently receiving suggests. It is simply blind bias that people are failing to even admit they have.
People didn't believe me when I said Hunter wouldn't work a day with Dubas, and said it was unsubstantiated then. Look what happened. Dubas and Lou did not get along, and while the goal may have been for him to mentor Dubas, that isn't how it turned out at all. He was basically ignored on NHL level decisions and blocked out. If you saw how he and Babcock worked out, it was essentially the same with Lou. Their viewpoints on how to construct a winning team did not align at all.

Are you seriously calling what Dubas got handed a hard job? He didn't have to restructure an entire organization. He got a job with a core of young players that just needed to be resigned. This team isn't more competitive than the Lou team's, and to be honest, the expectation should be that they are ahead of the 2017-18 team because of the age of the talent he inherited. Teams generally replace their GMs when they are bad, not when they are on an up-swing. Most GM's inherit much worse situations. I mean, look at what any new GM usually inherits. Sometimes you get a good situation like Pitt with Rutherford. But, most of the time its a situation like Buffalo, New Jersey, Red Wings, etc.

I would say that many of the Dubas homers also suffer from what you are accusing others of having which is blind-bias. They want the numbers guy to work-out and bought the hype he's hockey's Theo Epstein. I hope their right, but this team has regressed since he was handed a very strong core. How is this team one of the most cap-efficent in the league? The Matthew and Marner deals were not cap-efficient when you factor in that for Matthews they bought all of one-UFA year. Tavares is a top 6 paid player in the league, and while he's a great player, he's not playing like a top 6 player in the league. Look, I hope people who are blindly optimistic about what Dubas is doing are right. Its more fun to watch the Leafs win than argue about him being bad on HFBoards.
 
As for what Dubas had to navigate, he had to navigate figuring out how to pay 3 of his young core players and did so while also managing to add another franchise center for nothing but money by making the team one of the most cap efficient in the league. That was a retool, and one much more difficult than many other GM's have had to deal with. He managed to make teams that are a lot more competitive than Lou's team (which was, as I said before, boosted by shootouts and near perfect health) despite facing immaturity, inconsistencies and injuries. He had 4 more ROW last year than that 105 point team, and under Keefe (with the same roster) is on pace to match that 105 pace with more ROW's. He still has a lot more work to do, but the work he's done is a whole lot better than the negative recognition he is currently receiving suggests. It is simply blind bias that people are failing to even admit they have.

How foolish of so many of us to think that 14th is worse than 6th. Also remembering that Nylander missed 28 games and training camp and Matthews 14. Andersen had a few injuries last year as well. Injuries are no excuse. He sold the farm to a bunch of pretty boys. We don't have a team just a bunch of talented individuals.
 
it's not about JT having a poor season , it's about freeing up cap space to address the teams issues

also just because you sign a UFA doesn't mean your tied to that guy for life and the rest of players around the league won't give a damn since they'll do what's best for themselves and if that's coming to Toronto they will

players sign for different reasons , some want to go to a winner , others want to play in a certain city and some just want the biggest payday so while there's some places that are less desirable the fact is trading JT won't make Toronto any less a desirable destination
Except he has a full NTC. He can't and won't be traded. He came here partially because he wanted to be closer to his family while he starts his family. Matthews, Marner, Rielly and Nylander are all significantly more likely to be traded than Tavares, because the chances Tavares waives to be traded is zilch, we just gave him the captaincy, and Dubas's big move was getting him. So, even if he did waive (which there is no chance of), the organization isn't going to lose face and move him.
 
Very few ever get the opportunity Dubas was handed, which is a ready-made young core coming off a 105 point season with a team that has more financial muscle than almost any other team in the league.

A ready made young core that is still intact and has been added to.
A different approach may well (even likely would) have lead to better results this year. But doing so would have required dismantling said core, and likely hurting us long term.

If we're looking at hindsight/ inheritance situations - a GM being handed the reins this offseason is in a better situation that Dubas was. You can't understate the impending cap constraints Dubas was facing.

You can ( I did) make the argument that the smarter path for this season would have been riding it out rather than trying at all, but there's no way the fanbase would have accepted that.
 
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