We at best stayed in neutral last year. If you are going to say that having to pay these guys market rates this season led to significant set-backs. Then we should have been able to capitalize on there last year of ELC's by either improving in the standings and getting home-ice or getting past the first round.
Hindsight - Dubas or Hunter?
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We improved by winning more games. We took the cup finalist to 7. Margins are thin at the top.
Also- They were on ELC's in the 105 point year. So we're talking about small incremental gains in an already massive value surplus vs. that surplus disappearing entirely. Those don't come with equal impact on expectations.
Also- Nylander's elc had ended. 5.5m more to Nylander vs. Matthews-Marner improvements.
killer1980
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We failed to secure home-ice and got knocked out in the first round. If you are going to put the onus on them being cash strapped this year, then not capitalizing last year is a failure. We had fewer points last year, even if we had more wins. We didn't improve. If we knew we were taking a sizable step-back this year, which you are justifying, then going all-in last-year made the most sense. The team Dubas inherited should not be out of the playoffs within two years of a 105 point season when their core was so young, regardless of eventually having to pay the talent. It feels Dubas gets both sides of the coin here in his defence. If he had a massive surplus in value last year, failing to progress from the previous year is a big disappointment. And, teams like Chicago, LA, Washington, and Pitt didn't regress to the level of the current Leafs when they had to pay their guys coming off ELC's. They benefitted from contract structures at the time.
Not when you consider that is was a smaller (yet still large) surplus than Lou had the year before.
Three amigos at 7 vs 12 vs 27 (optimal)/ 29.5 (actual).
DanM
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Doesn't mean that guy was great during the talks.
I do question the JT signing though. I get that when a player like that comes up, you jump on it, but I preferred the team we had during Matthews rookie year, and even the year after.
The JT deal raised the internal cap a lot.
I hindsight I would have looked to move one of JVR or Bozak for assets, and I never would have moved picks for Plecks & Boyle and instead used that to draft or add an impact D. Marlaeu was a Lou mistake that took our 1st away, and that hurts. This year you have the Kadri trade...... and the list goes on.
I know you cannot be perfect, I just think we were on a path with our younger players and we should have taken our time and been patient. Keep drafting and developing. We rushed the rebuild a bit.
DanM
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Hence why I would trade Barrie for a 1st if possible. Try to get that pick back.
He also got Matthews and Marner in their 3rd years where players generally take steps forward. Also, multiple young players in a position to take steps forward on their ELC's to alleviate the lost value on Nylander with Johnsson and Kapanen.
I just think its the most favorable view possible to say that we were bound for regression this year, but then don't have the expectations for notable improvement last year. Then factor in he traded valued futures to immediately improve the team to acquire Muzzin, yet the team finished pretty much where they were the year before has to be viewed as a disappointment. He then traded more futures, putting us in a position where we may not have a first in successive years while our team is extremely top heavy.
DanM
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Yes
If he trades another 1st this deadline thinking he can help us make a strong playoff run, I think people need to look at what the hell he is doing. We CANNOT keep trading away futures. Also, Barrie will make ZERO difference on our playoff hopes this year and we cannot afford him next, he needs to be moved for futures at the least.
That's because you're equating "steps forward" with literally 25% of the cap disappearing over two years. This isn't a new thing. It was one of the more talked about topics on this board going back well into lou's time.
LeafsNation75
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I take that to mean Dubas wouldn't be calling other GM's to try and trade Nylander. However if another GM called him and asked about Nylander I'm sure he would listen.
Plus how is that any different when Brian Burke said he wasn't going to trade Luke Schenn and how he saw him as a future captain, since he eventually traded him to the Flyers for James van Riemsdyk.
Then why didn't Chicago regress when they had to pay Kane and Toews? Other teams have navigated through this successfully.
You are giving him a pass this year and last, for a team that has failed to improve. He traded Kadri who was underpaid for a RHD who didn't fill a need, traded a first to clear up cap-space (so, a limited impact on the roster short-term), while adding Muzzin in another trade (and letting Gardiner go) trading a 1st, a recent 2nd rounder (who was a bad pick at the time) and Grundstrom. Those moves should somewhat mitigate the cap increases due to he is trading future assets and long-term value assets for immediate fixes. Whereas the closest Lou did to that trading assets was a 2nd rounder's for Plekanec and Boyle.
LeafsNation75
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Another example where Lou didn't agree with Dubas is this. I think it was Elliotte Friedman who once reported how Dubas tried to talk him into signing Yanni Gourde when he was an undrafted UFA and Lou didn't want to do that.
hotpaws
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Gourde was signed when Lou was NJ and Dubas was still with the Soo,
T-Bay signed Gourde Mar 2014 .
Dubas joined the Leafs July 2014 .
LL joined the Leafs July 2015 .
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It was Mirtle, who Dubas generally leaked the most positive spins about his ideas too. Which lets just say didn't play well with Lou. He did the same thing claiming Leafs were going to draft Ryan McLeod at 25 prior to Hunter leaving, which was an inflated story given how draft boards break down and an overly simplistic view on the nature of the draft.
Interesting.......why wouldn't you take it to mean “Kyle has told me multiple times that as long as he’s here he’s not going to trade me.” ?
What with the quotation marks and all.
You don't consider going from 112 points and a cup win to 97 points and 1st round exit a regression?
Again. you're conflating two different things. I've already said you can challenge the decisions made to mitigate the struggle this year. Pointing out those decisions doesn't erase the struggle.
Sure. Undo the Muzzin trade to sign Gardiner. Undo the Marleau trade. Undo the the Kadri trade. Result
Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Marleau-Tavares-Nylander
Envall-Kadri-Mihkeyev
Timashov-Gauthier-Spezza
Korshkov-Moore
59
Rielly-xxx
Gardiner-Ceci
Dermott-Holl
Marincin
15.75
Andersen
Hutchison
5.7
=(From memory here) ~80.45. So one million to add another defender. Now pull out Rielly and two top 9 wings with injury. We have the futures back, but we're riding out a very obviously cap constrained year without any illusion of competing and then reloading in the offseason. He took his shot with the futures to mitigate the crunch. The crunch was real. It may or may not work. The season isn't over.
LeafsNation75
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I was referring to when Gourde re-signed with Tampa Bay prior to the 2016-2017 season when he was a UFA, however he had re-signed with Tampa for 1 year before getting his long term extension.
LeafsNation75
Registered User
Because I think Dubas means he won't call other GM's looking to trade him. However do you honestly think if another GM calls him and asks about Nylander he will say no right away and hang up, I'm sure he would listen. So I see that as when Brian Burke said he was not going to trade Luke Schenn, however he would also listen if a GM called and asked and that's what eventually happened.
hamzarocks
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Wanted hunter at the time but looking back we should have conducted a proper GM search. This period is the most important in recent history for our franchise. Why did we look at only 2 choice in house? Dubas was very young and inexperienced. Hunter was not as good as the hype made him out to be.
Think there is still a bit if time for dubas. However if he ends up missing the playoffs hes down on the clock. He gets the offseason and will be heavily scrutinized by ownership/media/fans(even more than now).
If leafs dont look like a Stanley cup favourite come Christmas next year he needs to be fired. He has gotten his coach, will have had 3 drafts at that time and 3 offseasons. If we miss the playoffs now he can blame partially Babcock and injuries. Those excuses wont apply next year after he's made some shake up trades.
Think there is still a bit if time for dubas. However if he ends up missing the playoffs hes down on the clock. He gets the offseason and will be heavily scrutinized by ownership/media/fans(even more than now).
If leafs dont look like a Stanley cup favourite come Christmas next year he needs to be fired. He has gotten his coach, will have had 3 drafts at that time and 3 offseasons. If we miss the playoffs now he can blame partially Babcock and injuries. Those excuses wont apply next year after he's made some shake up trades.
So Dubas had his fingers crossed when he "told me (Nylander) multiple times that as long as he’s here he’s not going to trade me.”?
Maybe he whispered "unless someone calls me with a good offer" under his breathe as Nylander was leaving the room.
Blackhawks bounced back with that core pretty quickly. Hopefully, the Leafs can do the same. But, the Pens won their first cup immediately after paying Crosby. LA Kings won the year after paying Doughty
The issue with the future is, trading them should have improved the team last year, which it didn't. We didn't get home ice and we still lost in 7 to Boston. That is with Matthews and Marner in the last year of their ELC's, after trading futures to acquire Muzzin. That should off-set the increase in Nylander's pay.
Trading Marleau to alleviate the cap-space this year should mitigate the complaint that the team had to regress this year. Also, trading 3 years of Kadri to get Barrie for a year at a significantly reduced cap-hit should too. You are acting like the regression should be accepted this year, but ignore that we traded valued assets to alleviate which sort of changes the barometer on how Dubas's performance is measured. The season isn't over, but it's pretty hard to see this teams path to getting past Boston or Tampa this year even if they qualify.
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