Player Discussion: Heinola Thread

[TS Quint]

Yep but Dylan’s stay at homeness fit the role the team needed.

No, his ability to play defense on a team wanting to have a defensive structure is the role the team needs. The Jets are trying to get away from the riverboat gambling and no team structure. Heinola can’t get the puck back from the other team and his offense isn’t good enough to cover for it. It has nothing to do with “stay at homeness” whatever that means it has to do with being a better NHL hockey player.

The team is full of 6ft defensemen and they even play together. Pionk, Morrissey and Schmitt are not stay at home defensemen but they have the ability to play defense. Until Heinola can at the very least play reasonable defense he’s going to be on the outside looking in. Right now it’s basically a PP when the other team has the puck with him out there.

 

[Jet]

No, his ability to play defense on a team wanting to have a defensive structure is the role the team needs. The Jets are trying to get away from the riverboat gambling and no team structure. Heinola can’t get the puck back from the other team and his offense isn’t good enough to cover for it. It has nothing to do with “stay at homeness” whatever that means it has to do with being a better NHL hockey player.

The team is full of 6ft defensemen and they even play together. Pionk, Morrissey and Schmitt are not stay at home defensemen but they have the ability to play defense. Until Heinola can at the very least play reasonable defense he’s going to be on the outside looking in. Right now it’s basically a PP when the other team has the puck with him out there.

That might be an exaggeration but I agree with the sentiment

 

[Joe Hallenback]

He has been really great in the AHL. He hasn't had a run of games in the NHL. I tend to agree unless there is a rash of injuries I don't see him getting into the lineup the way it is playing right now

 

[Jack7222]

Comparing a winger‘s defensive responsibilities to a defenseman is not the same thing. If you can’t play reasonable defense as a DEFENSEMEN you’re going to play the whole game in your own end. Right now Heinola plays defense the same way you do in table hockey. Just let them have the boards and hope they turn it over.

I don't think he was trying to compare their defense, just saying that most prospects have an adjustment period before their talents start to show.

Agree Heinola has been weak in his few games this year, but I do think we don't know what we have there until he gets a good string of games. Not sure we can afford to give him that though.

 

[TS Quint]

I don't think he was trying to compare their defense, just saying that most prospects have an adjustment period before their talents start to show.

Agree Heinola has been weak in his few games this year, but I do think we don't know what we have there until he gets a good string of games. Not sure we can afford to give him that though.

The poster can speak for themselves just fine.

Heinola needs to take advantage when he gets a chance. He has not done that at all. You don’t get 10 games of ass in the hopes of the 11th one he’s just going to magically figure it out.

 

[Jack7222]

The poster can speak for themselves just fine.

Heinola needs to take advantage when he gets a chance. He has not done that at all. You don’t get 10 games of ass in the hopes of the 11th one he’s just going to magically figure it out.

I thought Surixon's point was straightforward enough that I doubt he'll mind me clarifying.

About Heinola, you can go ahead and say he needs to take advantage, it's his fault, he was bad and hasn't done it etc. But then what is your solution? As an org we need to get value out of our high-end prospects and concluding that it's "all Heinola's fault" still doesn't get us any value back. Are you suggesting we should take his three games as evidence of what he is, plop him in the AHL and eat a loss? Trade him to recoup some value? Hope he's better next year?

I believe he has a ton of talent and hasn't been able to show it yet. I don't see why it's wrong to hope for him to be given time to get comfortable; it's a win-win for Heinola and the team. Whose fault everything is isn't relevant, really, to me. The org needs to work with the prospect towards success in the best way they can, it's of mutual benefit. Like I said before though, I'm not sure how you get him in at this point. Perhaps injury will clear a path.

 

[KingBogo]

I don't think he was trying to compare their defense, just saying that most prospects have an adjustment period before their talents start to show.

Agree Heinola has been weak in his few games this year, but I do think we don't know what we have there until he gets a good string of games. Not sure we can afford to give him that though.

He likely won't get a string of games unless we start hitting the injury bug on the backend. Especially with our hot start, this season is all about team success. We have 5 established vets who will all play every game if healthy. Samberg looks to be on the path of securing spot #6. After that Stanley and Capo give you PB depth. By what we have seen so far, is Ville gets the call up after the 2nd D injury. Under that scenario he gets some comes but not a string. Likely it would require 3 injuries on the backend for him to be an everyday player. God forbid if that happens, as it will likely start sinking us in the standings.

 

[surixon]

Comparing a winger‘s defensive responsibilities to a defenseman is not the same thing. If you can’t play reasonable defense as a DEFENSEMEN you’re going to play the whole game in your own end. Right now Heinola plays defense the same way you do in table hockey. Just let them have the boards and hope they turn it over.

You completely missed the point. I wasn't comparing their defenses or their responsibilities. I was just stating that almost every young player takes some time to figure things out before they really start to shine.

It's funny you keep getting on Ville for poor defense while bigger guys like Stanley have gotten a long leash and have largely been terrible in their end. Samberg who's calling card is defense has also struggled mightily at times while learning. I find it incredibly interesting that many fans are ok living with some players deficiencies while they adapt while not being willing to live with others. Is it because you expect bigger dmen to be good defensively and smaller ones not to be so you see what you want to see.

Anyhow, anyone that watches Ville play in the AHL knows he is very good in his own end there and plays a chippy game. The jury is obviously still out as to whether he can translate that but making a call off of two games this year seems rather short sighted. Especially as everyone conveniently forgets his good first game and juat focuses on the dumpster fire that was the whole team against Minny.

 

[Jack7222]

He likely won't get a string of games unless we start hitting the injury bug on the backend. Especially with our hot start, this season is all about team success. We have 5 established vets who will all play every game if healthy. Samberg looks to be on the path of securing spot #6. After that Stanley and Capo give you PB depth. By what we have seen so far, is Ville gets the call up after the 2nd D injury. Under that scenario he gets some comes but not a string. Likely it would require 3 injuries on the backend for him to be an everyday player. God forbid if that happens, as it will likely start sinking us in the standings.

Yeah, no disagreements from me. Added some stuff to the post reflecting my thoughts here.

Though I would hope that an injury to one of our big puck movers would at least lead to Heinola getting in on some kind of rotation, personally.

 

[surixon]

Yeah, no disagreements from me. Added some stuff to the post reflecting my thoughts here.

Though I would hope that an injury to one of our big puck movers would at least lead to Heinola getting in on some kind of rotation, personally.

I think the obvious person he's being slated to take the spot of at some point is Schmidt. I have largely liked how the dcore has played this year but imo they aren't getting close to their money's worth from Nate. We are 21 games in and he has a whooping 3 points and is brining nothing to the pp. Defense first guys like Dillion and DeMelo are out producing him. So he's an obvious player that I think Ville at some point can replace and be an upgrade on in some areas like the PP.

 

[TS Quint]

I thought Surixon's point was straightforward enough that I doubt he'll mind me clarifying.

About Heinola, you can go ahead and say he needs to take advantage, it's his fault, he was bad and hasn't done it etc. But then what is your solution? As an org we need to get value out of our high-end prospects and concluding that it's "all Heinola's fault" still doesn't get us any value back. Are you suggesting we should take his three games as evidence of what he is, plop him in the AHL and eat a loss? Trade him to recoup some value? Hope he's better next year?

I believe he has a ton of talent and hasn't been able to show it yet. I don't see why it's wrong to hope for him to be given time to get comfortable; it's a win-win for Heinola and the team. Whose fault everything is isn't relevant, really, to me. The org needs to work with the prospect towards success in the best way they can, it's of mutual benefit. Like I said before though, I'm not sure how you get him in at this point. Perhaps injury will clear a path.

It’s on Heinola. He’s an Adult and a professional. He needs to do the work to be better. Just being a high draft pick shouldn’t entitle you to anything. That achievement for him is over. It means nothing today. The Jets aren’t in existence to force Heinola to succeed.

Defense is just too important of a position to spend half the season to attempt to figure it out. The NHL isn’t a developmental league, that’s what the AHL is for. If he can’t start from a place where he isn’t hurting the team then he can’t be on the Jets. Right now he can’t be sheltered like Samberg can. That’s not to say Samberg‘s play should be an insurmountable mountain to climb because it hasn’t been. But he has a base to work with.

Thinking that working with him in the AHL isn’t working with him is just ignorant.

 

[TS Quint]

You completely missed the point. I wasn't comparing their defenses or their responsibilities. I was just stating that almost every young player takes some time to figure things out before they really start to shine.

It's funny you keep getting on Ville for poor defense while bigger guys like Stanley have gotten a long leash and have largely been terrible in their end. Samberg who's calling card is defense has also struggled mightily at times while learning. I find it incredibly interesting that many fans are ok living with some players deficiencies while they adapt while not being willing to live with others. Is it because you expect bigger dmen to be good defensively and smaller ones not to be so you see what you want to see.

Anyhow, anyone that watches Ville play in the AHL knows he is very good in his own end there and plays a chippy game. The jury is obviously still out as to whether he can translate that but making a call off of two games this year seems rather short sighted. Especially as everyone conveniently forgets his good first game and juat focuses on the dumpster fire that was the whole team against Minny.

Even Stanley has had period of good defense. And when that ran out he hit the bench. Pretty poor comparison.

I guess we will just disagree with where Heinola is at. I’m not saying he can’t get better because I think most of his problem lies in his strength especially in his core and legs. Id hope he will be able to battle a little better if he works on that. Currently he looks like a complete liability outside the offensive end To me. And if he can’t contribute to getting the puck back he won’t spend any time in the offensive end.

 

[MardyBum]

Comparing a winger‘s defensive responsibilities to a defenseman is not the same thing. If you can’t play reasonable defense as a DEFENSEMEN you’re going to play the whole game in your own end. Right now Heinola plays defense the same way you do in table hockey. Just let them have the boards and hope they turn it over.

So he's following the Neal Pionk gameplan?

 

[TS Quint]

So he's following the Neal Pionk gameplan?

I wish

 

[Jet]

So he's following the Neal Pionk gameplan?

LOL at comparing Heinola struggling with sheltered minutes with Pionk.

Pionk definitely has his defensive struggles but mentioning Heinola in the same breath is either gaslighting or a complete lack of objective thinking.

I can tell you are a huge Heinola fan and I think that's great - I like him too but I like the Jets better than any one player.

Objectively, there is no argument to be made to rush Heinola into the lineup. At this point Capobianco has shown more than Ville in the regular season.

 

[MardyBum]

That might be an exaggeration but I agree with the sentiment

I thought Surixon's point was straightforward enough that I doubt he'll mind me clarifying.

About Heinola, you can go ahead and say he needs to take advantage, it's his fault, he was bad and hasn't done it etc. But then what is your solution? As an org we need to get value out of our high-end prospects and concluding that it's "all Heinola's fault" still doesn't get us any value back. Are you suggesting we should take his three games as evidence of what he is, plop him in the AHL and eat a loss? Trade him to recoup some value? Hope he's better next year?

I believe he has a ton of talent and hasn't been able to show it yet. I don't see why it's wrong to hope for him to be given time to get comfortable; it's a win-win for Heinola and the team. Whose fault everything is isn't relevant, really, to me. The org needs to work with the prospect towards success in the best way they can, it's of mutual benefit. Like I said before though, I'm not sure how you get him in at this point. Perhaps injury will clear a path.

He hasn't even been bad relative to the other Jets dmen.

 

[surixon]

LOL at comparing Heinola struggling with sheltered minutes with Pionk.

Pionk definitely has his defensive struggles but mentioning Heinola in the same breath is either gaslighting or a complete lack of objective thinking.

I can tell you are a huge Heinola fan and I think that's great - I like him too but I like the Jets better than any one player.

Objectively, there is no argument to be made to rush Heinola into the lineup. At this point Capobianco has shown more than Ville in the regular season.

They have each played one good game and one bad game. Just so happens Ville's bad game happened when the whole team shit the bed which made his play look worse then it was.

Even Stanley has had period of good defense. And when that ran out he hit the bench. Pretty poor comparison.

I guess we will just disagree with where Heinola is at. I’m not saying he can’t get better because I think most of his problem lies in his strength especially in his core and legs. Id hope he will be able to battle a little better if he works on that. Currently he looks like a complete liability outside the offensive end To me. And if he can’t contribute to getting the puck back he won’t spend any time in the offensive end.

Did you not see all if last year with Logan? He kept getting minutes despite sucking. He even got the first opportunity this year after being the worst of the three in TC. The point is the org has been willing to give him a lot of time to try to figure things out. He's a completely relevant example of an org sticking with a player with warts and hoping he figures them out.

 

[MardyBum]

LOL at comparing Heinola struggling with sheltered minutes with Pionk.

Pionk definitely has his defensive struggles but mentioning Heinola in the same breath is either gaslighting or a complete lack of objective thinking.

I can tell you are a huge Heinola fan and I think that's great - I like him too but I like the Jets better than any one player.

Objectively, there is no argument to be made to rush Heinola into the lineup. At this point Capobianco has shown more than Ville in the regular season.

You're right, it's not fair to Ville. Pionk gets caved in when he's on the ice.

There is no rush to get him in the lineup, the Jets are winning. I think he could do the same things but with a different element on the third pairing, but both Samberg and Stanley have been solid too.

I'm just tired of reading ignorant bullshit in this thread.

f***ing weirdos rooting against Jets prospects.

 

[Jet]

You're right, it's not fair to Ville. Pionk gets caved in when he's on the ice.

There is no rush to get him in the lineup, the Jets are winning. I think he could do the same things but with a different element on the third pairing, but both Samberg and Stanley have been solid too.

I'm just tired of reading ignorant bullshit in this thread.

f***ing weirdos rooting against Jets prospects.

I think you are being far too emotional about this.

Pionk doesn't get caved in every time he's on the ice, and he's playing against higher QOC more often.

You can say that people are rooting against our prospects but I'd counter you're rooting against our vets.

 

[LowLefty]

They have each played one good game and one bad game. Just so happens Ville's bad game happened when the whole team shot the bed which made his play look worse then it was.



Did you not see all if last year with Logan? He kept getting minutes despite sucking. He even got the first opportunity this year after being the worst of the three in TC. The point is the org has been willing to give him a lot of time to try to figure things out. He's a completely relevant example of an org sticking with a player with warts and hoping he figures them out.

Ville has warts too - some are just determined to ignore them.
In fact, most players have them - should we call them all out in an effort to get Ville a spot?

These discussions go down hill fast when fans feel the need to trash Jet players to make a point.

 

[MardyBum]

I think you are being far too emotional about this.

Pionk doesn't get caved in every time he's on the ice, and he's playing against higher QOC more often.

You can say that people are rooting against our prospects but I'd counter you're rooting against our vets.

I'm not emotional at all. I'm just not required to sit here and let people post terrible, hyperbolic opinions

Morrissey and Pionk (especially when together) give up a LOT. Heinola in a sheltered role, has not.

That's not to say he could handle harder competition and more minutes and keep that up, he can't at this stage of his development, just like Samberg and Stanley probably can't, but the idea that he is *BAD* defensively is just incorrect. He's been just as good as Samberg Stanley and Capo in a sheltered third pairing role.

If anything, (imo) he's been too passive offensively since the preseason and isn't taking risks. His game revolves around being aggressive on the puck at both blue lines. He made a play I'm sure everyone remembers from preseason where he was the furthest player in and made a pass to the front of the net, no F covered for his jump and it led to a goal against.

Last night Demelo was the furthest Jets player in the zone on that Perfetti backhand goal to Wheeler. If that pass was off and no F was back, would that be Demelo's fault for doing what Bowness wants?

He's had some bad luck in a small sample. This isn't a "play him now!" post, this is a "settle down he hasn't been as bad as your biased eyes have told you" post.

 

[Jet]

I'm not emotional at all. I'm just not required to sit here and let people post terrible, hyperbolic opinions

View attachment 615078

Morrissey and Pionk (especially when together) give up a LOT. Heinola in a sheltered role, has not.

That's not to say he could handle harder competition and more minutes and keep that up, he can't at this stage of his development, just like Samberg and Stanley probably can't, but the idea that he is *BAD* defensively is just incorrect. He's been just as good as Samberg Stanley and Capo in a sheltered third pairing role.

If anything, (imo) he's been too passive offensively since the preseason and isn't taking risks. His game revolves around being aggressive on the puck at both blue lines. He made a play I'm sure everyone remembers from preseason where he was the furthest player in and made a pass to the front of the net, no F covered for his jump and it led to a goal against.

Last night Demelo was the furthest Jets player in the zone on that Perfetti backhand goal to Wheeler. If that pass was off and no F was back, would that be Demelo's fault for doing what Bowness wants?

View attachment 615081

He's had some bad luck in a small sample. This isn't a "play him now!" post, this is a "settle down he hasn't been as bad as your biased eyes have told you" post.

It's good to see you are basing your opinions on something - I respect that.

I have a lot of concerns about the validity of advanced stats, but I am not going to get into that here.

I don't at all want see Heinola to fail. In fact I want him to seize the day and become a fixture on the Jets defense.

I base my opinions on what I see, which I understand is not scientific. But I'd rather rely on my own eyes and experience than on datasets that have a tonne of question marks.

 

[MardyBum]

It's good to see you are basing your opinions on something - I respect that.

I have a lot of concerns about the validity of advanced stats, but I am not going to get into that here.

I don't at all want see Heinola to fail. In fact I want him to seize the day and become a fixture on the Jets defense.

I base my opinions on what I see, which I understand is not scientific. But I'd rather rely on my own eyes and experience than on datasets that have a tonne of question marks.

These aren't even that "advanced" of stats. It's great you want to rely on your eyes and experience, everyone should. No one should rely on statistic or analytics alone. They should also realize those eyes and experience have many question marks and biases as well. The best of both worlds is watching the game, realizing you have those biases, and using statistics and analytics to augment that.

I don't think you want him to fail at all. That part wasn't for you

 

[surixon]

Ville has warts too - some are just determined to ignore them.
In fact, most players have them - should we call them all out in an effort to get Ville a spot?

These discussions go down hill fast when fans feel the need to trash Jet players to make a point.

Of course he has warts, I've said as much. The point is other players are allowed the opportunity to play and fix them in the NHL at the same time whereas he hasn't as of yet. I also agree with those that there isn't a spot for him atm to learn on the fly so he's stuck in the AHL for the time being.

My point is that people rag on his d game all the time and stating it needs to be polished when he makes it while simultaneously ignoring the fact that the other young dmen in Stanley and to a less extent Snerg don't have fully polished defensive games either.

Anyhow this conversation doesn't seem to ever go anywhere you have his supporters and detractors and they dig in.

 

[DRW204]

Heinola might have warts to his game. But there's what like a handful of nhl players that are without any warts? many players/dmen on our roster was full of warts. Seriously do people not watch pionk, Schmidt or Stanley? Were people asleep from 19-cdn division year watching Morrissey for example or other dmen we iced? Same can apply to fwds too.
We even had a huge wart of a coach. At the end of the day, teams will work in players they like and hope they're strengths over come their weaknesses. I am leaning towards the Jets don't view this with Heinola, even though I do like him. Should have traded him when some execs were calling him the top prospect in Canada or w/e it was during the Canadian Division year.