Player Discussion: Heinola Thread

[voyageur]

You're right, it's not fair to Ville. Pionk gets caved in when he's on the ice.

There is no rush to get him in the lineup, the Jets are winning. I think he could do the same things but with a different element on the third pairing, but both Samberg and Stanley have been solid too.

I'm just tired of reading ignorant bullshit in this thread.

f***ing weirdos rooting against Jets prospects.

I don't know what games you are watching but Neal Pionk isn't getting caved. He's playing hard minutes against strong competition. Maybe gives up a few more chances than you'd like, but come on man, you have eyes. Show me the analytics for scoring chances created from Pionk's passing vs. Heinola's not this primitive shit.

 

[TS Quint]

They have each played one good game and one bad game. Just so happens Ville's bad game happened when the whole team shit the bed which made his play look worse then it was.



Did you not see all if last year with Logan? He kept getting minutes despite sucking. He even got the first opportunity this year after being the worst of the three in TC. The point is the org has been willing to give him a lot of time to try to figure things out. He's a completely relevant example of an org sticking with a player with warts and hoping he figures them out.

LMAO, so demand Heinola get an extended chance but complain about Stanley getting an extended chance to work through his problems? Ok. As long as we are being level headed here. At least Stanley showed some promise at the NHL level at some point. Maybe you would be happier if Lowry was back behind the bench. Maybe let Vesalainen work through his problems one more year.

 

[surixon]

LMAO, so demand Heinola get an extended chance but complain about Stanley getting an extended chance to work through his problems? Ok. As long as we are being level headed here. At least Stanley showed some promise at the NHL level at some point. Maybe you would be happier if Lowry was back behind the bench. Maybe let Vesalainen work through his problems one more year.

What is your problem here. I never once said don't give other players a chance I was pointing to them as a examples of players who got a long run of games to show what they could do. Ville hasn't been given those same opportunities as of yet. That is all.

 

[KingBogo]

Heinola might have warts to his game. But there's what like a handful of nhl players that are without any warts? many players/dmen on our roster was full of warts. Seriously do people not watch pionk, Schmidt or Stanley? Were people asleep from 19-cdn division year watching Morrissey for example or other dmen we iced? Same can apply to fwds too.
We even had a huge wart of a coach. At the end of the day, teams will work in players they like and hope they're strengths over come their weaknesses. I am leaning towards the Jets don't view this with Heinola, even though I do like him. Should have traded him when some execs were calling him the top prospect in Canada or w/e it was during the Canadian Division year.

I'm glad we didn't trade as I think he will end up being a useful player for us. Its fine if it doesn't happen immediately as we are vet heavy and relatively healthy on the backend. He will get his opportunities and I'm confident by the time he passes through his ELC, he will an everyday player.

 

[MardyBum]

I don't know what games you are watching but Neal Pionk isn't getting caved. He's playing hard minutes against strong competition. Maybe gives up a few more chances than you'd like, but come on man, you have eyes. Show me the analytics for scoring chances created from Pionk's passing vs. Heinola's not this primitive shit.

"He's playing hard minutes against strong competition"

And giving up a ton of shots and chances when he does. He's nowhere near good enough defensively to cover for Morrissey's jumps in offense(And Morrissey absolutely needs to keep doing so). Luckily Hellebuyck has been able to cover a lot of the warts. Hopefully Demelo keeps getting back to his old self so Mo has a more reliable defensive player with him, and Pionk can find chemistry with Samberg/Stanley so he can be the guy being aggressive to make offensive plays.

The idea that every vet D we have on the team is good defensively is just laughable. Morrissey and Pionk have their warts, so do Dillon, Schmidt, and Demelo. We have no elite 2 way dmen on this team, period.

 

[LowLefty]

My point is that people rag on his d game all the time and stating it needs to be polished when he makes it while simultaneously ignoring the fact that the other young dmen in Stanley and to a less extent Snerg don't have fully polished defensive games either.

Anyhow this conversation doesn't seem to ever go anywhere you have his supporters and detractors and they dig in.

Wow -
I've never heard anyone claim that Ville needed a polished dgame to break the roster - but I don't claim to have read every post.

I might be missing something but it appears clear to me that the org is looking for a defensive minded player on the third pair that has some physical in his game. Like it or not, that's what they want and based on how the Jets are playing right now, its hard to argue.

Yes, everyone digs in - especially when players are called out (on both sides of the argument).
But we should be careful how we label Ville fans - some of us would like to see him do well in the org - but they might not see an immediate need for him in the lineup. Those people are not "detractors"

 

[surixon]

Wow -
I've never heard anyone claim that Ville needed a polished dgame to break the roster - but I don't claim to have read every post.

I might be missing something but it appears clear to me that the org is looking for a defensive minded player on the third pair that has some physical in his game. Like it or not, that's what they want and based on how the Jets are playing right now, its hard to argue.

Yes, everyone digs in - especially when players are called out (on both sides of the argument).
But we should be careful how we label Ville fans - some of us would like to see him do well in the org - but they might not see an immediate need for him in the lineup. Those people are not "detractors"

It wasn't your post, it was another one that had indicated as such. But yes I agree that the coaching staff is looking for a specific role to be filled with that spot. Ville is going to have to wait for a long term injury to a player fulfilling the role he's being groomed to fill to really get his shot.

 

[Howard Chuck]

It wasn't your post, it was another one that had indicated as such. But yes I agree that the coaching staff is looking for a specific role to be filled with that spot. Ville is going to have to wait for a long term injury to a player fulfilling the role he's being groomed to fill to really get his shot.

This is the reality of the situation.

 

[Adam da bomb]

They have each played one good game and one bad game. Just so happens Ville's bad game happened when the whole team shit the bed which made his play look worse then it was.



Did you not see all if last year with Logan? He kept getting minutes despite sucking. He even got the first opportunity this year after being the worst of the three in TC. The point is the org has been willing to give him a lot of time to try to figure things out. He's a completely relevant example of an org sticking with a player with warts and hoping he figures them out.

Or he was a placeholder and neither Dylan or Ville were ready. They don’t need what ville brings to the table right now. Stanley was getting his nhl minutes while Ville and Dylan got top line minutes on Moose. Ville just didn’t take that extra step forward or doesn’t fill the role.

 

[surixon]

Or he was a placeholder and neither Dylan or Ville were ready. They don’t need what ville brings to the table right now.

You are right they don't need what he brings to the table atm but if Schmidt doesn't pick it up and start doing what he's paid to do it might be worth revisiting once roster restrictions are gone.

 

[Adam da bomb]

You are right they don't need what he brings to the table atm but if Schmidt doesn't pick it up and start doing what he's paid to do it might be worth revisiting once roster restrictions are gone.

Sounds good. Except in case the jets are winning so even if Schmidt doesn’t get points it’s still tough for Ville break in. Jets either need one of 3 to get injured or for team to start losing to take a mainstay out. You don’t break up a winning roster just to try and improve it and possibly make it worse.

 

[LowLefty]

It wasn't your post, it was another one that had indicated as such. But yes I agree that the coaching staff is looking for a specific role to be filled with that spot. Ville is going to have to wait for a long term injury to a player fulfilling the role he's being groomed to fill to really get his shot.

It wouldn't surprise me to see a trade at some point - one of the top 4 that bring strengths similar to what Ville might provide - there is opportunity there. But I don't see it happening in the near future - Ville won't like it but he needs to be patient.

Like most fans, I have no idea how self aware Ville is - but he must understand that the best opportunity for him will be replacing a player that plays his game - there's a couple in the line up now and they are fairly expensive. If the org sees what some see in this guy, he'll be earmarked for a slot that suits him and support the needs of the team (balanced D lineup).

But his biggest problem at this point, is the team is playing well without him and coaches / GM's like to avoid shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[Adam da bomb]

It wouldn't surprise me to see a trade at some point - one of the top 4 that bring strengths similar to what Ville might provide - there is opportunity there. But I don't see it happening in the near future - Ville won't like it but he needs to be patient.

Like most fans, I have no idea how self aware Ville is - but he must understand that the best opportunity for him will be replacing a player that plays his game - there's a couple in the line up now and they are fairly expensive. If the org sees what some see in this guy, he'll be earmarked for a slot that suits him and support the needs of the team (balanced D lineup).

But his biggest problem at this point, is the team is playing well without him and coaches / GM's like to avoid shooting themselves in the foot.

It doesn’t necessarily have to be a top 4 spot as one of Schmidt pionk are on 3rd pairing.

 

[surixon]

It wouldn't surprise me to see a trade at some point - one of the top 4 that bring strengths similar to what Ville might provide - there is opportunity there. But I don't see it happening in the near future - Ville won't like it but he needs to be patient.

Like most fans, I have no idea how self aware Ville is - but he must understand that the best opportunity for him will be replacing a player that plays his game - there's a couple in the line up now and they are fairly expensive. If the org sees what some see in this guy, he'll be earmarked for a slot that suits him and support the needs of the team (balanced D lineup).

But his biggest problem at this point, is the team is playing well without him and coaches / GM's like to avoid shooting themselves in the foot.

I personally think he's being groomed for Schmidt's spot. Him playing Rd and getting a lot of reps on the second PP unit in preseason was the giveaway to me. My guess is the org doesn't want a long term third pairing RD making the coin Nate is making.

The org also likely doesn't want to break in two rookies at the same time on the same pairing so they are giving Samberg the games and development this year and will likely look to work Ville in full time next season.

That to me is my best guess at how management is thinking.

 

[voyageur]

"He's playing hard minutes against strong competition"

And giving up a ton of shots and chances when he does. He's nowhere near good enough defensively to cover for Morrissey's jumps in offense(And Morrissey absolutely needs to keep doing so). Luckily Hellebuyck has been able to cover a lot of the warts. Hopefully Demelo keeps getting back to his old self so Mo has a more reliable defensive player with him, and Pionk can find chemistry with Samberg/Stanley so he can be the guy being aggressive to make offensive plays.

The idea that every vet D we have on the team is good defensively is just laughable. Morrissey and Pionk have their warts, so do Dillon, Schmidt, and Demelo. We have no elite 2 way dmen on this team, period.

The idea that Ville Heinola is the solution to the Jets defense with obscure statistics (the only GM I have heard all year use advanced stats like this to suggest his team was trending the right way was Pierre Dorion, who will probably be the next GM fired) is entirely laughable. I agree that De Melo has probably helped settle down Morrissey's game with good defensive play, that's why he is here, for defensive suppression. That change made sense because you took away all the eggs from one basket, as Bowness said. Now the team has 3 d-men on 3 different pairings who can jump in the play. Neal Pionk consistently plays top minutes, not sheltered from any player in the league. He gives up some chances, a ton is ridiculous and just plain false, but you only have one statistic you are using for reference, a shoddy one at that. I'm arguing that Neal Pionk produces offense each and every game, with good puck movement, which negates any perceived defensive impact. Someone on these boards mentioned leg strength, and that's something that Morrissey and Pionk both have, that Heinola doesn't have yet, which gives them the ability to box out well. He's been very good in that respect. You're talking like he's some black hole, but the Jets are winning games regularly with him as the #2 d-man, there's no indication that he is hampering the team beyond these vague statistics. Bowness called him his #2 d-man, and I think Rick Bowness is probably very happy with his play. Never heard different. From the day we got him from the Rangers, and ignorant fans could only cite his Corsi as his measure of play, I knew that the organization knew better than the critical fans. And they still do to this day.

We just hammered a supposed elite team on defense, what more results do you need? Albeit the guy who got torched the most was Girard, who is overrated in my opinion. Only teams that have given the Jets real trouble so far this year are a physical Vegas and Minnesota forward group.

 

[MardyBum]

The idea that Ville Heinola is the solution to the Jets defense with obscure statistics (the only GM I have heard all year use advanced stats like this to suggest his team was trending the right way was Pierre Dorion, who will probably be the next GM fired) is entirely laughable. I agree that De Melo has probably helped settle down Morrissey's game with good defensive play, that's why he is here, for defensive suppression. That change made sense because you took away all the eggs from one basket, as Bowness said. Now the team has 3 d-men on 3 different pairings who can jump in the play. Neal Pionk consistently plays top minutes, not sheltered from any player in the league. He gives up some chances, a ton is ridiculous and just plain false, but you only have one statistic you are using for reference, a shoddy one at that. I'm arguing that Neal Pionk produces offense each and every game, with good puck movement, which negates any perceived defensive impact. Someone on these boards mentioned leg strength, and that's something that Morrissey and Pionk both have, that Heinola doesn't have yet, which gives them the ability to box out well. He's been very good in that respect. You're talking like he's some black hole, but the Jets are winning games regularly with him as the #2 d-man, there's no indication that he is hampering the team beyond these vague statistics. Bowness called him his #2 d-man, and I think Rick Bowness is probably very happy with his play. Never heard different. From the day we got him from the Rangers, and ignorant fans could only cite his Corsi as his measure of play, I knew that the organization knew better than the critical fans. And they still do to this day.

We just hammered a supposed elite team on defense, what more results do you need? Albeit the guy who got torched the most was Girard, who is overrated in my opinion. Only teams that have given the Jets real trouble so far this year are a physical Vegas and Minnesota forward group.

Jesus christ. What an absolute load of bullshit.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

I'd give Schmidt an A. Trade pionk and call up Ville. Schmidt is obvious good for the room and that stuff matters. Pionk and Schmidt are the same player. Offensive d men, all things being equal I move pionk over Schmidt all day every day. Schmidt has a vital role in the room, not sure Pionk does. Haven't liked pionks game since the cdn division. Figured that was more of a those teams weren't good then it was pionk being good and appears to be the case. Schmidt is just so damn likable I move pionk over him every day. Jets players all love nate

 

[Jet]

I personally think he's being groomed for Schmidt's spot. Him playing Rd and getting a lot of reps on the second PP unit in preseason was the giveaway to me. My guess is the org doesn't want a long term third pairing RD making the coin Nate is making.

The org also likely doesn't want to break in two rookies at the same time on the same pairing so they are giving Samberg the games and development this year and will likely look to work Ville in full time next season.

That to me is my best guess at how management is thinking.

And when you think about the most sensible plan for the org. and remove the rotting on the vine trope, they're doing the exactly correct thing.

I don't think the Jets have had a deeper organization in their history (not top end talent but NHL quality players).

Rotating guys in at forward and D could help us greatly in the playoffs when players get hurt/ tired.

Why push Heinola out of his window and trade away that depth? There's absolutely no rush, especially with the teams performance to date.

I think Chevy has a monumental offseason coming up, but how the team finishes will inform that.

 

[Jet]

The idea that Ville Heinola is the solution to the Jets defense with obscure statistics (the only GM I have heard all year use advanced stats like this to suggest his team was trending the right way was Pierre Dorion, who will probably be the next GM fired) is entirely laughable. I agree that De Melo has probably helped settle down Morrissey's game with good defensive play, that's why he is here, for defensive suppression. That change made sense because you took away all the eggs from one basket, as Bowness said. Now the team has 3 d-men on 3 different pairings who can jump in the play. Neal Pionk consistently plays top minutes, not sheltered from any player in the league. He gives up some chances, a ton is ridiculous and just plain false, but you only have one statistic you are using for reference, a shoddy one at that. I'm arguing that Neal Pionk produces offense each and every game, with good puck movement, which negates any perceived defensive impact. Someone on these boards mentioned leg strength, and that's something that Morrissey and Pionk both have, that Heinola doesn't have yet, which gives them the ability to box out well. He's been very good in that respect. You're talking like he's some black hole, but the Jets are winning games regularly with him as the #2 d-man, there's no indication that he is hampering the team beyond these vague statistics. Bowness called him his #2 d-man, and I think Rick Bowness is probably very happy with his play. Never heard different. From the day we got him from the Rangers, and ignorant fans could only cite his Corsi as his measure of play, I knew that the organization knew better than the critical fans. And they still do to this day.

We just hammered a supposed elite team on defense, what more results do you need? Albeit the guy who got torched the most was Girard, who is overrated in my opinion. Only teams that have given the Jets real trouble so far this year are a physical Vegas and Minnesota forward group.

Thank you!

 

[Jet]

I'd give Schmidt an A. Trade pionk and call up Ville. Schmidt is obvious good for the room and that stuff matters. Pionk and Schmidt are the same player. Offensive d men, all things being equal I move pionk over Schmidt all day every day. Schmidt has a vital role in the room, not sure Pionk does. Haven't liked pionks game since the cdn division. Figured that was more of a those teams weren't good then it was pionk being good and appears to be the case. Schmidt is just so damn likable I move pionk over him every day. Jets players all love nate

I disagree. Pionk is physical and I think he has a compete level Nate does not.

That's how he went from being an undersized unrated defenseman to a legit top 4 guy.

I think 4 and 88 are similar players but Pionk is a warrior and you need that especially in the playoffs. I think Heinola is more similar to 88 than 4.

 

[voyageur]

I disagree. Pionk is physical and I think he has a compete level Nate does not.

That's how he went from being an undersized unrated defenseman to a legit top 4 guy.

I think 4 and 88 are similar players but Pionk is a warrior and you need that especially in the playoffs. I think Heinola is more similar to 88 than 4.

I have to say so far this season I am impressed with Schmidt's defensive effort. He's been much better at getting in front of shots. Boxing out. Winning one on one battles. The offense is lacking, to date. But he's been solid. I didn't think he could play effectively on PK2, based on last year's performance, but he's been used in that spot, and the results are decent. I don't see Ville being good enough to displace him at this time. The eye test says moving Schmidt down with Samberg has yielded better results than Ville had in that role. Down the road, who knows. I think Ville just has to reach the trajectory the Jets coaching staff have for him. An injury to one of our top 2 defensemen, and he'd be the guy who gets the call conceivably, and probably in a situation where he is protected with one of the defensive defensemen the Jets have found to be reliable this year, in either De Melo or Dillon.

Not many teams can boast that kind of depth, and that's something the Jets management have to be happy with, and would be weary about losing, especially if we are talking playoffs, where injuries can change the course of a team in a hurry.

 

[surixon]

I disagree. Pionk is physical and I think he has a compete level Nate does not.

That's how he went from being an undersized unrated defenseman to a legit top 4 guy.

I think 4 and 88 are similar players but Pionk is a warrior and you need that especially in the playoffs. I think Heinola is more similar to 88 than 4.

The org is clearly more invested in Pionk than Schmidt. He's also younger as well so he's sticking around. I can see Schmidt being moved in the offseason to make room for Ville and to redistribute cap space to the forwards.

 

[TS Quint]

"He's playing hard minutes against strong competition"

And giving up a ton of shots and chances when he does. He's nowhere near good enough defensively to cover for Morrissey's jumps in offense(And Morrissey absolutely needs to keep doing so). Luckily Hellebuyck has been able to cover a lot of the warts. Hopefully Demelo keeps getting back to his old self so Mo has a more reliable defensive player with him, and Pionk can find chemistry with Samberg/Stanley so he can be the guy being aggressive to make offensive plays.

The idea that every vet D we have on the team is good defensively is just laughable. Morrissey and Pionk have their warts, so do Dillon, Schmidt, and Demelo. We have no elite 2 way dmen on this team, period.

Wow quite the response….

Maybe you “Should probably take the positivity to the mainboard ”

 

[Jet]

I have to say so far this season I am impressed with Schmidt's defensive effort. He's been much better at getting in front of shots. Boxing out. Winning one on one battles. The offense is lacking, to date. But he's been solid. I didn't think he could play effectively on PK2, based on last year's performance, but he's been used in that spot, and the results are decent. I don't see Ville being good enough to displace him at this time. The eye test says moving Schmidt down with Samberg has yielded better results than Ville had in that role. Down the road, who knows. I think Ville just has to reach the trajectory the Jets coaching staff have for him. An injury to one of our top 2 defensemen, and he'd be the guy who gets the call conceivably, and probably in a situation where he is protected with one of the defensive defensemen the Jets have found to be reliable this year, in either De Melo or Dillon.

Not many teams can boast that kind of depth, and that's something the Jets management have to be happy with, and would be weary about losing, especially if we are talking playoffs, where injuries can change the course of a team in a hurry.

Yeah I have no complaints with our d vets this season.

 

[Gm0ney]

Yeah I have no complaints with our d vets this season.

Getting .931 goaltending will tend to discourage the complaints...