Player Discussion: Heinola Thread

[ps241]

I don't like the tactic of going public with this stuff. I'm not sure that it has a positive effect, especially with an org. Like true north who keep their business and operational dealings private.

All it does is causes animosity between Ville and his peers, and ville and the org. It's also a distraction for Heinola who should be continuing to work on improvement and performance at the ahl level.

People think that a player gets to the point where they cannot learn anymore at the level they're at. I think that's false, especially for a guy who's not performing at a high level where he currently is.

Its interesting Jet I have come full circle on it. I think Ville has put in his time now. I assume his agent has had an ongoing dialogue with TNSE and team Ville have decided its time to go public. Players and organizations are on different sides of the negotiating table. I can’t really speak to animosity between piers however, although they may go to war together on the ice each player is tasked with negotiating to get the best deal for themselves. All players do it and it seems to me like most players understand that its part of the business and don’t hold it against each other.

I realize TNSE want to keep things private and that is their option. However, they can’t dictate how the other side chooses to play ball.

To me Jet the bottom line on this when it comes to Heinola is that I think there is a real possibility Ville doesn’t make the NHL in Winnipeg full time. I also believe he is good enough to play in the NHL now on teams with less depth. Ville and his agent are fighting for their professional lives here. Its not a tenured guy who wants to get out of Winnipeg even though he’s making a fortune. I don’t think its smart to sit around and wait after a certain point and Heinola is there now.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Seider was taken the same draft year as Ville... spent a couple seasons in the A... is a stud, taken much higher than Ville so I feel he's a good comparison. Seider dominated the A offensively and defensively... Ville looks good offensively but terrible defensively.

I have a tough time with Ville right now cuz the Moose games I've watched this year, he hasn't stood out at all. Chisholm Gawanke and Lundmark all look better all around

Seider played half a season in AHL and half a season in Sweden and put up comparable offensive numbers to Heinola (Minus that abysmal 27 game season Heinola had in Liiga, which is an abnormality in his track record). The only thing that's true in this post is that they were drafted in the same year, and even then they're not comparable when one went at #6 and the other #20.

Very unsurprising that Ville's finally had it. You can't just keep sending the guy down forever. He played well in the pre-season and deserved a good look.

 

[Jet]

Its interesting Jet I have come full circle on it. I think Ville has put in his time now. I assume his agent has had an ongoing dialogue with TNSE and team Ville have decided its time to go public. Players and organizations are on different sides of the negotiating table. I can’t really speak to animosity between piers however, although they may go to war together on the ice each player is tasked with negotiating to get the best deal for themselves. All players do it and it seems to me like most players understand that its part of the business and don’t hold it against each other.

I realize TNSE want to keep things private and that is their option. However, they can’t dictate how the other side chooses to play ball.

To me Jet the bottom line on this when it comes to Heinola is that I think there is a real possibility Ville doesn’t make the NHL in Winnipeg full time. I also believe he is good enough to play in the NHL now on teams with less depth. Ville and his agent are fighting for their professional lives here. Its not a tenured guy who wants to get out of Winnipeg even though he’s making a fortune. I don’t think its smart to sit around and wait after a certain point and Heinola is there now.

Fair points. I also may be approaching it old school as Gen z has to be treated differently, we've seen that in my business as well.

The philosophy of putting your head down and earning your chances, waiting your turn is not a generally accepted principle with younger people (or is less tolerated).

I will say that this has likely hurt Ville in the sense that during negotiations to make a deal, other GMs will see Chevy dealing from a position of weakness and will likely try to lowball him. You and I know that Chevy won't pull the trigger on a deal if the Jets don't get value.

So, that means that a deal may be slower to come, and the Jets have a lot of control left on him. He could go back to Europe but at this stage of his career that could be extremely damaging to his career earnings.

Finally, if Ville really wants to play in the nhl, regardless of whether he's here or not, he's going to have to up his ahl game. That will accelerate a deal or promotion.

If he keeps sulking, the Jets will have to make a call as to whether they want to enable more of this behavior by promoting him anyways when need arises, or giving a shot to a guy that's been putting the work in and performing, like Chisholm or Gawanke.

 

[Jet]

Seider played half a season in AHL and half a season in Sweden and put up comparable offensive numbers to Heinola (Minus that abysmal 27 game season Heinola had in Liiga, which is an abnormality in his track record). The only thing that's true in this post is that they were drafted in the same year, and even then they're not comparable when one went at #6 and the other #20.

Very unsurprising that Ville's finally had it. You can't just keep sending the guy down forever. He played well in the pre-season and deserved a good look.

OK I'll play, so what would you have done in this situation?

Please don't include magical trades that are extremely unlikely to happen at the beginning of the season.

Waivers:
Morrissey
Dillon
Demelo
Pionk
Schmidt
Stanley
Kovacevic
Capobianco
Waiver eligible:
Heinola
Samberg

 

[lomiller1]

Because size? Heinola might, and I say might be better than Stanley. Stanley has better stats than heinola has. No way Heinola is a better defenseman than the other 2

Heinola was clearly better than either Samberg or Stanley in preseason even though he was playing his off side. He's at a point where he can't develop any further without NHL experience, so it makes sense that if the Jets won't give him that opportunity he needs to go someplace else.

If the Jets won't respond to private discussions, he's got no real choice to go public, just like all the other young players who needed to out because the Jets are failing them from a development perspective.

 

[KingBogo]

Heinola was clearly better than either Samberg or Stanley in preseason even though he was playing his off side. He's at a point where he can't develop any further without NHL experience, so it makes sense that if the Jets won't give him that opportunity he needs to go someplace else.

If the Jets won't respond to private discussions, he's got no real choice to go public, just like all the other young players who needed to out because the Jets are failing them from a development perspective.

The problem with going public is the NHL CBA gives organizations a tremendous amount of control over their signed prospects. The Jets own Heinola's NHL rights for 6 more seasons, and Heinola isn't such a talent that other GMs are going to pay a very steep price. If Chevy was willing to take pennies on the dollar he'd be gone, but Chevy is the ultimate grinder and rarely if ever takes anything he doesn't believe to be full value. Heinola IMO is best served to up his AHL game to make sure he is the first defenseman called up and then play to a level you force the organizations hand. First and fore most teams want to win and if Bones thinks he gives him the best chance he will continue to play.

 

[Jet]

Heinola was clearly better than either Samberg or Stanley in preseason even though he was playing his off side. He's at a point where he can't develop any further without NHL experience, so it makes sense that if the Jets won't give him that opportunity he needs to go someplace else.

If the Jets won't respond to private discussions, he's got no real choice to go public, just like all the other young players who needed to out because the Jets are failing them from a development perspective.

Heinola was better than Stanley, I agree. I wanted Stan to be the dedicated popcorn guy this year. Heinola in my opinion was not a better option than Samberg as Samberg is already clearly better in his own zone.

As for the he can't develop more in the AHL that's horseshit. He might try being our best defenseman down there before that idea is given any credence

 

[Snowboy]

Heinola was better than Stanley, I agree. I wanted Stan to be the dedicated popcorn guy this year. Heinola in my opinion was not a better option than Samberg as Samberg is already clearly better in his own zone.

As for the he can't develop more in the AHL that's horseshit. He might try being our best defenseman down there before that idea is given any credence

The thing that pisses's me off is that Bones said "can we win with him". You will only find out by giving him a chance to play a healthy string of games. Three of his NHL coaches have not! I don't blame Heinola for pushing his envelope now. He did outplay his competition in exhibition but still he sits leading me to believe some size and weight discrimination is afoot here by our esteemed coaching staff, or they intend to move him and don't want to display his short comings. All in all, Heinola has not been given a fair chance by the Jets. He is among one of the best passing and puck moving players on defense on a team that needs that skiil. Baffeling!

 

[ffh]

Seider played half a season in AHL and half a season in Sweden and put up comparable offensive numbers to Heinola (Minus that abysmal 27 game season Heinola had in Liiga, which is an abnormality in his track record). The only thing that's true in this post is that they were drafted in the same year, and even then they're not comparable when one went at #6 and the other #20.

Very unsurprising that Ville's finally had it. You can't just keep sending the guy down forever. He played well in the pre-season and deserved a good look.

The guy is the smallest weakest dman I have ever seen that’s his problem. What do you mean when you say send him down for ever he is on his elc for Christ sakes.

 

[leer2006]

Heinola was better than Stanley, I agree. I wanted Stan to be the dedicated popcorn guy this year. Heinola in my opinion was not a better option than Samberg as Samberg is already clearly better in his own zone.

As for the he can't develop more in the AHL that's horseshit. He might try being our best defenseman down there before that idea is given any credence

Except he has been for the past 2 years our best Dman on the Moose and I’m guessing the only reason this season he has been passed is he’s fed up. Why try when it doesn’t seem to matter. Chevy made a mistake when he brought in both Schmidt and Dillon. He blocked his own prospects from moving up. Now he’s facing some backlash for his decisions. Good on Heinola for pushing for what he feels is right for him. He should have been on the Jet’s over a year ago. But PoMo blocked him when Chevy wanted him in.

 

[None]

Except he has been for the past 2 years our best Dman on the Moose and I’m guessing the only reason this season he has been passed is he’s fed up. Why try when it doesn’t seem to matter. Chevy made a mistake when he brought in both Schmidt and Dillon. He blocked his own prospects from moving up. Now he’s facing some backlash for his decisions. Good on Heinola for pushing for what he feels is right for him. He should have been on the Jet’s over a year ago. But PoMo blocked him when Chevy wanted him in.

Not to mention we have an assistant coach that straight up said someone made the team schmoozing on the golf course in July

Your play doesn't matter to the Jets. They've said it now.

 

[KingBogo]

The thing that pisses's me off is that Bones said "can we win with him". You will only find out by giving him a chance to play a healthy string of games. Three of his NHL coaches have not! I don't blame Heinola for pushing his envelope now. He did outplay his competition in exhibition but still he sits leading me to believe some size and weight discrimination is afoot here by our esteemed coaching staff, or they intend to move him and don't want to display his short comings. All in all, Heinola has not been given a fair chance by the Jets. He is among one of the best passing and puck moving players on defense on a team that needs that skiil. Baffeling!

When healthy the Jets have 5 veteran D written in stone. That leaves 1 opening and it looks like Bones has it as a competition between Samberg and Stanley with Capo as the PB guy. I'd be fine as Stanley also being a PB guy, but then you would be sending Samberg to the Moose to open up a spot for Heinola. As I've posted previously I don't think the organization are wanting to move out current vet defenseman to make room to develop a player on the Jets. Too many injuries happen at the position and teams usually have to go down to depth 9/10 at some point in the season. The organization is in win now mode and seems to be content with Heinola developing on the Moose and get his games when the injuries strike.

 

[BoneDocUK]

Its interesting Jet I have come full circle on it. I think Ville has put in his time now. I assume his agent has had an ongoing dialogue with TNSE and team Ville have decided its time to go public. Players and organizations are on different sides of the negotiating table. I can’t really speak to animosity between piers however, although they may go to war together on the ice each player is tasked with negotiating to get the best deal for themselves. All players do it and it seems to me like most players understand that its part of the business and don’t hold it against each other.

I realize TNSE want to keep things private and that is their option. However, they can’t dictate how the other side chooses to play ball.

To me Jet the bottom line on this when it comes to Heinola is that I think there is a real possibility Ville doesn’t make the NHL in Winnipeg full time. I also believe he is good enough to play in the NHL now on teams with less depth. Ville and his agent are fighting for their professional lives here. Its not a tenured guy who wants to get out of Winnipeg even though he’s making a fortune. I don’t think its smart to sit around and wait after a certain point and Heinola is there now.

Great post and I think the bolded pretty much nails it. I also wonder whether there's been some gap in communication between the sides at this point.

I do think that contract status is a key factor here, as was the artificial logjam created during the Wilderness Years of replacement-level plugs brought in on D.

But this makes a pair of recent first-rounders in Vesalainen and Heinola that haven't worked out or will be moved on. For a team that needs to hit on pretty much every first-rounder that is not an ideal result.

I also think Chevy and the org likely needs to take some responsibility for the D-man development strategy over the past 5 years or so. Bringing in vets with term and cap with 3-5 prospects in the wings seems like poor forecasting and asset management.

What next for Samberg and Stanley? What about Chisholm or even Gawenke, who is coming on well now? How much more time will Lundmark need?

 

[Snowboy]

When healthy the Jets have 5 veteran D written in stone. That leaves 1 opening and it looks like Bones has it as a competition between Samberg and Stanley with Capo as the PB guy. I'd be fine as Stanley also being a PB guy, but then you would be sending Samberg to the Moose to open up a spot for Heinola. As I've posted previously I don't think the organization are wanting to move out current vet defenseman to make room to develop a player on the Jets. Too many injuries happen at the position and teams usually have to go down to depth 9/10 at some point in the season. The organization is in win now mode and seems to be content with Heinola developing on the Moose and get his games when the injuries strike.

You make some good points, but let me add a few others. Heinola has a better shot than his
competition, he moves the puck more efficiently, and passes better than the competition all RIGHT NOW.
Yes he has defensive issues, but so do all the Jets defence men. We should be taking advantage of his offensive skills right now and compensating his his shortcomings with support for several games to see how it works out as we are moving toward to a faster team game..........There is no room for lumbering Stan in the new trendy NHL........our coaching staff are making an error in judgment here.

 

[bumblebeeman]

Seider played half a season in AHL and half a season in Sweden and put up comparable offensive numbers to Heinola (Minus that abysmal 27 game season Heinola had in Liiga, which is an abnormality in his track record). The only thing that's true in this post is that they were drafted in the same year, and even then they're not comparable when one went at #6 and the other #20.

Very unsurprising that Ville's finally had it. You can't just keep sending the guy down forever. He played well in the pre-season and deserved a good look.

From his draft class the defensemen currently in the NHL are Zac Jones, Seider and Byram. There a bunch of guys taken ahead of him in the AHL still. I can see why he's frustrated, but he'll get his shot and it will be up to him to run with it. I am not worried about him at all right now, I think he'll be a core Jet for a long time.

 

[LowLefty]

You make some good points, but let me add a few others. Heinola has a better shot than his
competition, he moves the puck more efficiently, and passes better than the competition all RIGHT NOW.
Yes he has defensive issues, but so do all the Jets defence men. We should be taking advantage of his offensive skills right now and compensating his his shortcomings with support for several games to see how it works out as we are moving toward to a faster team game..........There is no room for lumbering Stan in the new trendy NHL........our coaching staff are making an error in judgment here.

You're listing all the offense aspects of the game as his strengths (and I agree with some of that) - to clarify, is that what you mean by New and Trendy?

You'd think we would talk a bit about his defensive game considering that is the position he plays.
And yes, hockey includes defense and sometimes defense requires more physical aspects of the game - which might be where Ville struggles a bit.

We are after all, talking about hockey - and if the game is trending to more offense, that's great (and debatable) - but it's still one of the most physical games played and you will have a very difficult time displaying your shot, passing, or offensive smarts if you struggle defending your zone without the puck.

I get the frustration some are having with Ville out of the lineup - but I also think it's important that we at least consider why he's out and others are in - look at the whole story and maybe not assume 3 coaching groups are all getting it wrong.

 

[MardyBum]

Edit : rude to Adam Lowry. Defense only matters when it's a vague concept that can't be measured. When it's measured there's always an excuse lol.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Its interesting Jet I have come full circle on it. I think Ville has put in his time now. I assume his agent has had an ongoing dialogue with TNSE and team Ville have decided its time to go public. Players and organizations are on different sides of the negotiating table. I can’t really speak to animosity between piers however, although they may go to war together on the ice each player is tasked with negotiating to get the best deal for themselves. All players do it and it seems to me like most players understand that its part of the business and don’t hold it against each other.

I realize TNSE want to keep things private and that is their option. However, they can’t dictate how the other side chooses to play ball.

To me Jet the bottom line on this when it comes to Heinola is that I think there is a real possibility Ville doesn’t make the NHL in Winnipeg full time. I also believe he is good enough to play in the NHL now on teams with less depth. Ville and his agent are fighting for their professional lives here. Its not a tenured guy who wants to get out of Winnipeg even though he’s making a fortune. I don’t think its smart to sit around and wait after a certain point and Heinola is there now.

Really well put

 

[surixon]

You're listing all the offense aspects of the game as his strengths (and I agree with some of that) - to clarify, is that what you mean by New and Trendy?

You'd think we would talk a bit about his defensive game considering that is the position he plays.
And yes, hockey includes defense and sometimes defense requires more physical aspects of the game - which might be where Ville struggles a bit.

We are after all, talking about hockey - and if the game is trending to more offense, that's great (and debatable) - but it's still one of the most physical games played and you will have a very difficult time displaying your shot, passing, or offensive smarts if you struggle defending your zone without the puck.

I get the frustration some are having with Ville out of the lineup - but I also think it's important that we at least consider why he's out and others are in - look at the whole story and maybe not assume 3 coaching groups are all getting it wrong.

It's really about roles imo. The role he plays is being filled by vet dmen on big contracts. The team is looking for a Dillion/DeMelo type player to balance the defense and his game doesn't fit that. I think it's as simple as that.

I however think looking at a guy like Stan to fit that role is a mistake as he's not very good defensively. Hopefully Samberg is able to stake his claim to that spot over the next number of games as that role is tailor-made for his game of he can gain some consistency.

I do think this org puts a bit too much stock into offensive vs. Defensive roles. I'd like to see more of a focus on balanced dmen but that would likely need to see us bring in some different talent from outside the org. We really only have one dmen that plays a balanced game in JoMo.

 

[snowkiddin]

It's really about roles imo. The role he plays is being filled by vet dmen on big contracts. The team is looking for a Dillion/DeMelo type player to balance the defense and his game doesn't fit that. I think it's as simple as that.

I however think looking at a guy like Stan to fit that role is a mistake as he's not very good defensively. Hopefully Samberg is able to stake his claim to that spot over the next number of games as that role is tailor-made for his game of he can gain some consistency.

I do think this org puts a bit too much stock into offensive vs. Defensive roles. I'd like to see more of a focus on balanced dmen but that would likely need to see us bring in some different talent from outside the org. We really only have one dmen that plays a balanced game in JoMo.

Maybe I’m getting too excited over HF’s favourite prospects, but I think Chisholm plays a very balanced game and legitimately has top 4 potential. I think he’s overtaken Heinola, honestly. He’s good and if he were drafted higher he’s likely in the NHL right now.

 

[LowLefty]

It's really about roles imo. The role he plays is being filled by vet dmen on big contracts. The team is looking for a Dillion/DeMelo type player to balance the defense and his game doesn't fit that. I think it's as simple as that.

I however think looking at a guy like Stan to fit that role is a mistake as he's not very good defensively. Hopefully Samberg is able to stake his claim to that spot over the next number of games as that role is tailor-made for his game of he can gain some consistency.

I do think this org puts a bit too much stock into offensive vs. Defensive roles. I'd like to see more of a focus on balanced dmen but that would likely need to see us bring in some different talent from outside the org. We really only have one dmen that plays a balanced game in JoMo.

I agree it is likely about roles - it might be as simple as that and that was what I was getting at.

I'd say the spot is still up for grabs at this point - Stan or Samberg - I'm fine with either.

I disagree that the org puts too much stock in D vs O roles - they are simply working with what they have.
Maybe there's some potential with guys currently in the system - we have a couple of guys that might surprise. We'll need to give them time and opportunity.

 

[surixon]

I agree it is likely about roles - it might be as simple as that and that was what I was getting at.

I'd say the spot is still up for grabs at this point - Stan or Samberg - I'm fine with either.

I disagree that the org puts too much stock in D vs O roles - they are simply working with what they have.
Maybe there's some potential with guys currently in the system - we have a couple of guys that might surprise. We'll need to give them time and opportunity.

Yes they are working with who they have but that is ignoring the fact that they went out and brought those players in in the first place.

We've had this pattern of trading for or signing d first players (Kulikov, DeMelo, Dillion) or other first players (Myers, Pionk, Schmidt). When was the last time we brought in a more balanced dmen? I can't think of a time myself.

 

[LowLefty]

Yes they are working with who they have but that is ignoring the fact that they went out and brought those players in in the first place.

We've had this pattern of trading for or signing d first players (Kulikov, DeMelo, Dillion) or other first players (Myers, Pionk, Schmidt). When was the last time we brought in a more balanced dmen? I can't think of a time myself.

That might be easier said then done -
But I'll agree there are examples of where they have gone after one or the other

 

[Snowboy]

You're listing all the offense aspects of the game as his strengths (and I agree with some of that) - to clarify, is that what you mean by New and Trendy?

You'd think we would talk a bit about his defensive game considering that is the position he plays.
And yes, hockey includes defense and sometimes defense requires more physical aspects of the game - which might be where Ville struggles a bit.

We are after all, talking about hockey - and if the game is trending to more offense, that's great (and debatable) - but it's still one of the most physical games played and you will have a very difficult time displaying your shot, passing, or offensive smarts if you struggle defending your zone without the puck.

I get the frustration some are having with Ville out of the lineup - but I also think it's important that we at least consider why he's out and others are in - look at the whole story and maybe not assume 3 coaching groups are all getting it wrong.

No, I was refering to the NHL moving toward a faster game, quicker game, with more short passes and more emphasis on skill and less on physicality. Like the Jets and many other teams have become. That's why I believe Heinola is getting screwed and the coaching staff have made an error in judgment.( at this point Heinola will only improve defensively by playing in the NHL not the AHL any longer)

 

[Jet]

The thing that pisses's me off is that Bones said "can we win with him". You will only find out by giving him a chance to play a healthy string of games. Three of his NHL coaches have not! I don't blame Heinola for pushing his envelope now. He did outplay his competition in exhibition but still he sits leading me to believe some size and weight discrimination is afoot here by our esteemed coaching staff, or they intend to move him and don't want to display his short comings. All in all, Heinola has not been given a fair chance by the Jets. He is among one of the best passing and puck moving players on defense on a team that needs that skiil. Baffeling!

What happens when you play Heinola and teams start targeting him on forecheck (you better believe that will happen) he's going to get punished both physically and mentally.

People say there's size discrimination, but that is a mischaracterization. It's strength. There a reason there's not a lot of 175 lb defensemen in the league and its not discrimination. If you can't handle the physical demands of wall work, battles, and forecheck pressure, you're going to get eaten up.

Stanley struggles with this too even at his size. Enstrom was a small defenseman, but he had good strength, a great stick, and an innate ability to use his opponents weight against them. He also had incredible escapability which protected himself most of his career.

These are Heinolas weaknesses in his own zone. He has incredible talent, and open ice with no pressure he is absolutely talented enough to excel in the league.

In the Central, and Western Conference overall, teams use size and speed to aggressively and physically forecheck, and our team has not been good at handling that the past few years. Adding heinola is not going to help with that. Sure, good passing and quick exit decisions will mitigate it somewhat, but Heinola will get overwhelmed in situations where there is a forecheck that involves multiple forwards supporting each other and cutting off lanes.

There are also situations where Heinola has made panicked passes in that situation or overhandled the puck leading to turnovers and that was in exhibition, against teams that weren't even full nhl lineups.

People like to think that a smaller defenseman just needs to be skilled to play in the nhl, but that's simply not the case. Just as only being big doesn't make you successful in the nhl.

Of course the old school management still defers to size over skill, but the old adage is still true, you can't teach size.

I'm not advocating for Stanley over Heinola, but Samberg is far better at handling forecheck pressure and making the right decision in our zone than Ville. That's what the team needs if we are to improve our play in our own zone which I think everyone will agree is our biggest weakness