Player Discussion: Heinola Thread

[Jet]

This isn't just a Jet only issue, you see it all over the league now.

Bogo there is a long list of poor evaluarion and deployment:
-Signed Stuart to a poor contract and kept him shackled to Trouba years too long.
-Tucker Poolman was elevated to the top pair with JoMo due to perceived size and that was a disaster.
-The scrubs we got and Moe played in Harrison, Biettto etc.
-Thinking Belieau was a top pairing guy and forcing JoMo to his offside to play with him
-Trading for Tyler Myers and using him far higher up the lineup then he should have been given his results.
Etc.

It doesn't juat apply to d prospects it applies across the board with trades, signings etc.

If they have a massive issue at the pro level identifying and deploying dmen then I don't see how you'd expect things to be markedly better at the amateur level.

Here's my wonderment: How much of our D drafting, acquisition, and usage was driven by Maurice and Huddy? I don't think they had the final say but I'd bet dollars to donuts that they did have an impact on our philosophy.

I wonder how that will shift going forward?

 

[KingBogo]

This isn't just a Jet only issue, you see it all over the league now.

Bogo there is a long list of poor evaluarion and deployment:
-Signed Stuart to a poor contract and kept him shackled to Trouba years too long.
-Tucker Poolman was elevated to the top pair with JoMo due to perceived size and that was a disaster.
-The scrubs we got and Moe played in Harrison, Biettto etc.
-Thinking Belieau was a top pairing guy and forcing JoMo to his offside to play with him
-Trading for Tyler Myers and using him far higher up the lineup then he should have been given his results.
Etc.

It doesn't juat apply to d prospects it applies across the board with trades, signings etc.

If they have a massive issue at the pro level identifying and deploying dmen then I don't see how you'd expect things to be markedly better at the amateur level.

I was thinking purley about prospects as that is what we were discussing I didn't realize the intent was to branch out to all defense that have worn a Jets uniform. That is a completely different discussion.

 

[KingBogo]

Here's my wonderment: How much of our D drafting, acquisition, and usage was driven by Maurice and Huddy? I don't think they had the final say but I'd bet dollars to donuts that they did have an impact on our philosophy.

I wonder how that will shift going forward?

IMO Chevy didn't seem prepared to transition from a very good defense to the next generation. We went from a backend that included Buff, Trouba, Morrissey, Toby and Myers, and were legitimate contenders. Then within a couple years other than Morrissey still here we had mostly AHL scrubs. I lay this mostly on Chevy, but I have no idea how much say Maurice had in the D we picked up.

 

[surixon]

IMO Chevy didn't seem prepared to transition from a very good defense to the next generation. We went from a backend that included Buff, Trouba, Morrissey, Toby and Myers, and were legitimate contenders. Then within a couple years other than Morrissey still here we had mostly AHL scrubs. I lay this mostly on Chevy, but I have no idea how much say Maurice had in the D we picked up.

I mean Florida picked up Bietto after he got there. I would say thats evidence that Moe had a decent amount of say in who we brought in for depth.

Yeah Chevy was ill prepared for Buff leaving as he did, but when if Buff had stayed we are still looking like we'd be in the same spot now. I get that it isn't easy to find number 1 dmen but our acquisitions haven't come close to filling the void.

 

[Jet]

IMO Chevy didn't seem prepared to transition from a very good defense to the next generation. We went from a backend that included Buff, Trouba, Morrissey, Toby and Myers, and were legitimate contenders. Then within a couple years other than Morrissey still here we had mostly AHL scrubs. I lay this mostly on Chevy, but I have no idea how much say Maurice had in the D we picked up.

I think it was a series of unfortunate events. While I think he could have likely handled it a bit quicker, he really had shit luck

Enstrom fell off a cliff and then left after not being used in a playoff game
Trouba wanted out and forced the teams hand
Buff said "Peace out, bitches!"

Any series of losses to key foundational D pieces in a short timeframe like that, and the way they left would have been a huge challenge for any GM, not considering the GM of likely the least desirable market in the league.

 

[DRW204]

the run for our younger dmen probably should've happened when we were icing the likes of sbisa, forbort, dhalstrom, bitetto, beaulieu, poolman. for the most part, we knew what those dmen were as NHLers. of course our coach/gm will defer to vets more times than not though. stanley did get his shot after sbisa being waived and beaulieu getting season-ending surgery. wonder if beaulieu had not been hurt, would stanley have still been in the lineup. anyway, there's room for 1 of stanley, samberg or heinola now. i highly doubt one of the vets with high salaries will be supplanted. the youngsters were not on the team or got opportunities when the D depth was horrible now that it has improved i think it will be even less likely.

Should have traded someone in the offseason for a forward to make room for younger d-men or given him a run at the end of last season when all was lost so atleast we knew what we had in him. The d logjam was entirely predictable and many were questioning Chevy for not doing anything about it in the summer. Now we have to deal with the consequences of the do-nothing summer.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

Dude sucks defensively. Moritz Seider never once complained about ahl time and look at him. Heinola seems entitled... but can he play D cuz do we need another pionk? Cuz that's what Ville is. All O no D. Don't see how that helps. Comparing him to Stan and samberg is stupid too since they are older and Sam is just getting his chance really now. Ppl were wondering why this guy didn't make the team. His attitude is what's stopping him. Another niku here. Trade him b4 other teams figures out he sucks defensively. Instead of working on improving his D game he whines and sulks. Trade the entitled little twat

Turns out whoever hfboards.com Jets fans like, turns out they become entitled. Want to make the team? Improve your D game and shut up cuz 2 pionks aren't needed

 

[Gabe Kupari]

Seider was taken the same draft year as Ville... spent a couple seasons in the A... is a stud, taken much higher than Ville so I feel he's a good comparison. Seider dominated the A offensively and defensively... Ville looks good offensively but terrible defensively.

I have a tough time with Ville right now cuz the Moose games I've watched this year, he hasn't stood out at all. Chisholm Gawanke and Lundmark all look better all around

 

[snowkiddin]

Dude sucks defensively. Moritz Seider never once complained about ahl time and look at him. Heinola seems entitled... but can he play D cuz do we need another pionk? Cuz that's what Ville is. All O no D. Don't see how that helps. Comparing him to Stan and samberg is stupid too since they are older and Sam is just getting his chance really now. Ppl were wondering why this guy didn't make the team. His attitude is what's stopping him. Another niku here. Trade him b4 other teams figures out he sucks defensively. Instead of working on improving his D game he whines and sulks. Trade the entitled little twat

Turns out whoever hfboards.com Jets fans like, turns out they become entitled. Want to make the team? Improve your D game and shut up cuz 2 pionks aren't needed

His defence isn’t that bad. He makes smart decisions with the puck, is positionally sound, and is good at breakouts, which is something the Jets have struggled with the past few seasons. He’s also a PP QB and our PP has been a train wreck this year. He’s a former 1st round pick who hasn’t looked out of place in his brief NHL stints and has excelled at in two seasons with the Moose. I don’t blame him for feeling as he does; he’s developed well, could likely play in the NHL for a dozen teams, and sees his path to the NHL in Winnipeg blocked, especially now with Chisholm surpassing him.

I don’t know if I would say I agree with him going public like this; it doesn’t help him or the Jets. But I don’t blame him for being frustrated. I would be too.

 

[surixon]

Seider was taken the same draft year as Ville... spent a couple seasons in the A... is a stud, taken much higher than Ville so I feel he's a good comparison. Seider dominated the A offensively and defensively... Ville looks good offensively but terrible defensively.

I have a tough time with Ville right now cuz the Moose games I've watched this year, he hasn't stood out at all. Chisholm Gawanke and Lundmark all look better all around

Heinola is just fine defensively at the AHL level.

 

[DRW204]

Seider was taken the same draft year as Ville... spent a couple seasons in the A... is a stud, taken much higher than Ville so I feel he's a good comparison. Seider dominated the A offensively and defensively... Ville looks good offensively but terrible defensively.

I have a tough time with Ville right now cuz the Moose games I've watched this year, he hasn't stood out at all. Chisholm Gawanke and Lundmark all look better all around

Seider didn't spend a couple years in the A. He played 49 gp in 19-20. Covid happened and he played in Europe as Detroit tanked, then nhl after. Sieder is also much superior of a prospect then all of our players.

 

[voyageur]

Dude sucks defensively. Moritz Seider never once complained about ahl time and look at him. Heinola seems entitled... but can he play D cuz do we need another pionk? Cuz that's what Ville is. All O no D. Don't see how that helps. Comparing him to Stan and samberg is stupid too since they are older and Sam is just getting his chance really now. Ppl were wondering why this guy didn't make the team. His attitude is what's stopping him. Another niku here. Trade him b4 other teams figures out he sucks defensively. Instead of working on improving his D game he whines and sulks. Trade the entitled little twat

Turns out whoever hfboards.com Jets fans like, turns out they become entitled. Want to make the team? Improve your D game and shut up cuz 2 pionks aren't needed

I don't know I think HFBoards lean to advanced stats, unless advanced stats have Logan Stanley playing better than Samberg, then they just say De Melo is great, and then De Melo hasn't scored in a year. And our coach says we need offense from the d, which Pionk provides, but he sucks, apparently, as does Heinola, so we'll win with advanced stats (except Stanley) and never score a goal on defense. That's my take.

 

[Gm0ney]

Here's my wonderment: How much of our D drafting, acquisition, and usage was driven by Maurice and Huddy? I don't think they had the final say but I'd bet dollars to donuts that they did have an impact on our philosophy.

I wonder how that will shift going forward?

I'm not sure the Jets defensive picks show any discernable type. Maybe more European defensemen in the last few drafts? Since 2019: Heinola, Lundmark, Johannesson, Kuzmin and Salomonsson. Bauer and Brown the only North American defensemen in the last 4 drafts...

 

[surixon]

I'm not sure the Jets defensive picks show any discernable type. Maybe more European defensemen in the last few drafts? Since 2019: Heinola, Lundmark, Johannesson, Kuzmin and Salomonsson. Bauer and Brown the only North American defensemen in the last 4 drafts...

Yeah we used to draft mostly big dmen but that changed a while ago and now we tend to draft an assortment of different types.

 

[hockeyarena]

Ville and Demelo for Faulk

 

[Gm0ney]

Ville and Demelo for Faulk

lmao no

 

[lomiller1]

Heinola has played more AHL games than Morrissey did, similar draft pick selections...... from what i recall, morrissey's ahl play didn't really get glowing reviews (almost 10 years ago now so i'll concede to a more qualified assessment), and for the majority of his ahl career heinola has been pretty strong (from those account that follow or analyze the league ie: Kyosama here, or Jacob Stoller).

Morrissey did pretty well in the AHL but did find himself in a situation where his progression was blocked by Ben Chiarot. The fans could all tell who was better, but the jets organization decided Chiarot should be higher on the depth chart because size. Luckally for Morrissey he was only slotted behind Chiarot, whereas Heinola finds himself behind Stanley, Dillon and Samberg because size.

You can also look back a little farther into the Mark Stuart era, "sure he had his limitations but so long as he was paired with Trouba the two made a good third pair!"

 

[lomiller1]

I think it was a series of unfortunate events. While I think he could have likely handled it a bit quicker, he really had shit luck

Enstrom fell off a cliff and then left after not being used in a playoff game
Trouba wanted out and forced the teams hand
Buff said "Peace out, bitches!"

Any series of losses to key foundational D pieces in a short timeframe like that, and the way they left would have been a huge challenge for any GM, not considering the GM of likely the least desirable market in the league.

In the normal course of events you'd expect that would open the door for younger D-men to get NHL ice time, but instead we just got journeymen and the young guys got relegated to the minors like the Jets were rocking a full roster of high end D-men.

 

[KingBogo]

In the normal course of events you'd expect that would open the door for younger D-men to get NHL ice time, but instead we just got journeymen and the young guys got relegated to the minors like the Jets were rocking a full roster of high end D-men.

It's too bad we didn't have our current crop of D prospects NHL ready at the time.

 

[surixon]

Morrissey did pretty well in the AHL but did find himself in a situation where his progression was blocked by Ben Chiarot. The fans could all tell who was better, but the jets organization decided Chiarot should be higher on the depth chart because size. Luckally for Morrissey he was only slotted behind Chiarot, whereas Heinola finds himself behind Stanley, Dillon and Samberg because size.

You can also look back a little farther into the Mark Stuart era, "sure he had his limitations but so long as he was paired with Trouba the two made a good third pair!"

Even still it took Trouba holding out and Buff wanting to play with him to get JoMo that top 4 spot. No Trouba hold out and JoMo likely starting on the AHL that year.

 

[DRW204]

buff was the one who pushed for morrissey a lot and basically handpicked him to play in 2016. the depth chart at the time had enstrom too.

imo RE: Heinola this was a v predictable outcome. i remember discussions of this last year- 1.5 year ago on this board.

heinola probably sees that the depth chart has vet with $+term now unless someone is moved (chances v low given our gm) he's on the outside looking in. this team is winning they're not gonna move someone just for the sake of it. tough luck for heinola. i see it similar to Lundkvist in NYR.... although he had superior RD ahead of him (fox, trouba, deangelo/schneider for instance).

Morrissey did pretty well in the AHL but did find himself in a situation where his progression was blocked by Ben Chiarot. The fans could all tell who was better, but the jets organization decided Chiarot should be higher on the depth chart because size. Luckally for Morrissey he was only slotted behind Chiarot, whereas Heinola finds himself behind Stanley, Dillon and Samberg because size.

You can also look back a little farther into the Mark Stuart era, "sure he had his limitations but so long as he was paired with Trouba the two made a good third pair!"

 

[Jet]

In the normal course of events you'd expect that would open the door for younger D-men to get NHL ice time, but instead we just got journeymen and the young guys got relegated to the minors like the Jets were rocking a full roster of high end D-men.

Please share who we had that were going to fill 3 very important roles vacated when those players left.

It's too bad we didn't have our current crop of D prospects NHL ready at the time.

Exactly. We had no one.

 

[Jet]

Morrissey did pretty well in the AHL but did find himself in a situation where his progression was blocked by Ben Chiarot. The fans could all tell who was better, but the jets organization decided Chiarot should be higher on the depth chart because size. Luckally for Morrissey he was only slotted behind Chiarot, whereas Heinola finds himself behind Stanley, Dillon and Samberg because size.

You can also look back a little farther into the Mark Stuart era, "sure he had his limitations but so long as he was paired with Trouba the two made a good third pair!"

Because size? Heinola might, and I say might be better than Stanley. Stanley has better stats than heinola has. No way Heinola is a better defenseman than the other 2

 

[None]

Enstrom fell off a cliff and then left after not being used in a playoff game

Just a small correction but Enstrom didn't fall off a cliff. His points production took an obvious dive due to usage. His PP minutes were cut from 1.5-2.5mins a night playing PP1/PP2 to playing like 15 seconds a night average. Prime offensive minutes were given to Trouba, Buff, and Myers rather than Enstrom and I think it's at least debatable whether anyone except Buff actually deserved those minutes over Enstrom.

Enstrom's shot suppression (defensive impact) before he left was at or near his peak as an NHL player. He was grossly mischaracterized by our coaching staff and unfortunately left on poor terms with the organization as a result.

And while I doubt Heinola ever reaches the peak that Enstrom hit I can't help but wonder if there's still some size bias going on in our pro scouting and evaluation. I hope that's not what's keeping Heinola out of the NHL. And as you pointed out yourself, how much of it was Maurice/Huddy?

 

[GaryPoppins]

I don't like the tactic of going public with this stuff. I'm not sure that it has a positive effect, especially with an org. Like true north who keep their business and operational dealings private.

All it does is causes animosity between Ville and his peers, and ville and the org. It's also a distraction for Heinola who should be continuing to work on improvement and performance at the ahl level.

People think that a player gets to the point where they cannot learn anymore at the level they're at. I think that's false, especially for a guy who's not performing at a high level where he currently is.

You never go right to the media with this stuff. There has likely been several private conversations and nothing has changed. PLD is the outlier this summer but there is definitely a process that happens before going public.

This is definitely a warning shot, though. Agent cited specifically is not the city but the opportunity which is PR 101 ensuring he’s not alienating the fans in the city.

I don’t blame him tbh. We’ve all been there career wise; wanting to move on and up and knowing you’re ready for it but nothing popping up. Working hard, execution is important but so is timing. Timing doesn’t always work out.. could be that with Ville.