Hawks of Yesteryear Part II - Madden AHL 17

[BK]

I'm thick-skinned, but yeah, your post was jerky.

We traded a legit 1st liner who fit this team like a glove for an okay 2C and a prospect who didn't look good and was quickly discarded. As to scuderi's relatively small, one year cap hit making the impact of losing a rapidly declining Sharp greater than the loss of Saad...I don't know how to respond to such silliness.

If you were offended that was not the intent.

Dano was turned into Ladd so he was not just discarded. He was used to upgrade the team.

The 1.25ish from Scuderi could have been used to add a forward.

Saad vs AP is the question and I would take AP.

 

[JaegerDice]

Saad is a legit first line wing. He was a good match for the Hossa Toews line.

He was a good fit with Toews and Hossa. So was Sharp the next year, who blew Saad's 1st line point totals out of the water.

Plus, come playoff time, Saad usually ended up on the 2nd line more often than not.

The Blackhawks could use Saad, but not for 6 million unless they were willing to move Seabrook.

And if they did keep him, the same people would be whining about how poor Kane doesnt have a legit center, or would faint at the thought of TT or Schmaltz going up against the likes of Getzlaf/Kesler or Kopitar/Carter, etc.

Given the choice between a center+cap space or a 50 point winger, you build down the middle.

 

[hawksrule]

Didn't Anisimov fit this team like a glove last year? He had 10 less pts than Saad did the previous year.

How many of those were secondary assists because he happened to play with k/p? Serious question, I'm too lazy to look it up on my phone.

His presence was a positive. Much more so in the first half of the season. Had a lousy playoffs.

 

[Blackhawks]

You obviously take a 4.5mil 2C over a 6mill 50 point winger. Thats not even a contest.

Ask Columbus how much of an impact a 50 point winger makes in the grand scheme of building a team.

It's nervous triggered laughter whenever some emotions are released. Why don't you mention a 30+ goal speedy scoring winger that has a good two way game. Please tell me how many wingers like Saad are available in the league as he is a top ten winger in the game. Funny how people talk with praise about players that brought the cup here and go and talk smack about Saad even though the Hawks win 2 cups when he was in Chicago and almost 3 if it wasn't for the thick head of Q and crappy play of Crawford in that LA series. That first line was running circles around teams when Saad was here and has been bad-mediocre ever since his departure, seems like Hossa and Toews trended down and Saad has his best season last year even though apparently according to most they were the ones that carried him. The double standard is real.

 

[hawksrule]

If you were offended that was not the intent.

Dano was turned into Ladd so he was not just discarded. He was used to upgrade the team.

The 1.25ish from Scuderi could have been used to add a forward.

Saad vs AP is the question and I would take AP.

I wasn't offended, but it was nonetheless unfriendly. Moving on.

That Dano was included in a rental trade doesn't imply the Saad trade was good value, or that Dano wasn't discarded. I don't think he would have been included if he had shown anything here.

I understand that having 1.25 is better than not and there are all sorts of wonderful things it could buy. But one year of 1.25 doesn't make the net loss of Sharp greater than the net loss of Saad.

The question isn't Saad vs ap. These choices aren't made in a vacuum, and are not binary.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

So much arguing over semantics.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

How many of those were secondary assists because he happened to play with k/p? Serious question, I'm too lazy to look it up on my phone.

His presence was a positive. Much more so in the first half of the season. Had a lousy playoffs.

The secondary assist argument is weak.

 

[JaegerDice]

It's nervous triggered laughter whenever some emotions are released. Why don't you mention a 30+ goal speedy scoring winger that has a good two way game. Please tell me how many wingers like Saad are available in the league as he is a top ten winger in the game. Funny how people talk with praise about players that brought the cup here and go and talk smack about Saad even though the Hawks win 2 cups when he was in Chicago and almost 3 if it wasn't for the thick head of Q and crappy play of Crawford in that LA series. That first line was running circles around teams when Saad was here and has been bad-mediocre ever since his departure, seems like Hossa and Toews trended down and Saad has his best season last year even though apparently according to most they were the ones that carried him. The double standard is real.

How many 50 point wingers coming off elc are available for 6 million or less? Many.

Toews and Hossa were elite possession players while Saad was riding buses and battling acne in Saginaw. The idea that they cant have a down year independent of Saad is silly. The 1st line has always gone as Toews has gone. Thats why Saad was replaced on the 1st line in 2014 and not only did the line not miss a beat, it actually increased its possession and production.

Toews had a down season. Hossa continued his age-imduced downward offensive trend. Neither have much to do with Saad being gone. Its an easy answer to a multifaceted scenario, pushed by those with an agenda.

Do thr Blackhawks miss Saad? Yep. Is he worth 6mil per year? Nope.

 

[hawksrule]

The secondary assist argument is weak.

Not nearly as weak as arguing that the difference between Saad and anisimov as players can be summed up as 10 points.

 

[JaegerDice]

Not nearly as weak as arguing that the difference between Saad and anisimov as players can be summed up as 10 points.

The difference can be summed up as 10pts and 1.5 million cap dollars.

 

[DPHawk]

He was, but just because he was a legit match, doesn't make him a top line W. A top line W to me is, Kane, Perry, Ovechkin, Hall, etc. Saad isn't at that level IMO. He is a great 2nd line W.

So your definition of a top line wing is a top 10-15 winger? You do realize there's 60 1st line wing spots, right?

 

[Hawkaholic]

How many of those were secondary assists because he happened to play with k/p? Serious question, I'm too lazy to look it up on my phone.

His presence was a positive. Much more so in the first half of the season. Had a lousy playoffs.

How many of their goals was Anisimov a pretty big factor in the goals happening without being rewarded? How many of those goals happen if Anisimov isn't the guy standing in front of the net, taking all the abuse while those two play on the perimeter?

All I was saying is, Anisimov was a big part of the 2nd line, as much as Saad was a big part of the 1st line. Toews and Hossa didn't have career years playing with Saad.

So your definition of a top line wing is a top 10-15 winger? You do realize there's 60 1st line wing spots, right?

There aren't 60 top line wingers in the NHL. Much like there aren't 30 #1 Dmen in the league. A top line W to me is a guy who averages roughly a point per game or at least 60pts and a elite defensive game. Saad is neither IMO. He is a 50-60pt winger with a good defensive game. We'll see if he improves on that and becomes one, it's not guaranteed though.

 

[clydesdale line]

Saad vs AP is the question and I would take AP.

We should've had both. Stan was trying to get Anisimov for years in all reports and tried hard that summer, but their GM wanted more until Saad was asking for too much and priced himself out. We've won 3 cups and 2 of them were with mediocre to below average #2 centers. Sure Anisimov helped Kane go on to have a career year, but this team has proven they can win cups with lack of a second line center. I like Anisimov don't get me wrong, but I would've loved Saad and his youth still here more along with Panarin. I still think he regrets how it all went down.

 

[Hawkaholic]

We should've had both. Stan was trying to get Anisimov for years in all reports and tried hard that summer, but their GM wanted more until Saad was asking for too much and priced himself out. We've won 3 cups and 2 of them were with mediocre to below average #2 centers. Sure Anisimov helped Kane go on to have a career year, but this team has proven they can win cups with lack of a second line center. I like Anisimov don't get me wrong, but I would've loved Saad and his youth still here more along with Panarin. I still think he regrets how it all went down.

I would like to see the math on how we start the season under the cap last year with Saad @ 6mil instead of Anisimov at 3.28mil.

 

[clydesdale line]

I would like to see the math on how we start the season under the cap last year with Saad @ 6mil instead of Anisimov at 3.28mil.

I believe Chief on twitter had a source that said Stan was banking on getting Saad around 4 or 4.5 mil and was surprised he was asking for 6+. I was hoping they would get Saad at 5 mil or so, but I can never fault any athlete that wants to get paid, especially one who was 22 and already won 2 cups.

 

[hawksrule]

I would like to see the math on how we start the season under the cap last year with Saad @ 6mil instead of Anisimov at 3.28mil.

It's not so hard to come up with scenarios. Just spitballing, bite the bullet and make the TT/Bickell trade one year earlier. Could have thrown in the 2016 1st as a sweetener to offset the extra year of Bickell, instead of wasting it on Ladd.

The best option of course would have been to not take back any salary on the sharp trade.

 

[DPHawk]

There aren't 60 top line wingers in the NHL. Much like there aren't 30 #1 Dmen in the league. A top line W to me is a guy who averages roughly a point per game or at least 60pts and a elite defensive game. Saad is neither IMO. He is a 50-60pt winger with a good defensive game. We'll see if he improves on that and becomes one, it's not guaranteed though.

I mean by this standard Alex Ovechkin wasn't a top line winger last year so what makes the bolded the standard for a top line wing? And there is no reason to make the definition of 1st line winger so narrow because teams regularly because teams frequently win without elite wingers ('16 Pens, '14/'12 Kings) but pretty much never win without a top 5-10 Dman.

 

[Hawkaholic]

I mean by this standard Alex Ovechkin wasn't a top line winger last year so what makes the bolded the standard for a top line wing? And there is no reason to make the definition of 1st line winger so narrow because teams regularly because teams frequently win without elite wingers ('16 Pens, '14/'12 Kings) but pretty much never win without a top 5-10 Dman.

Are you serious w/ the Ovechkin thing?
He scored 50 goals in 79GP.
Are Cam Atkinson and Justin Williams top line W?

As for the last part of your post, so 3 (if you don't count Kessel-debatable) in how many years is frequent?

 

[Hawkaholic]

It's not so hard to come up with scenarios. Just spitballing, bite the bullet and make the TT/Bickell trade one year earlier. Could have thrown in the 2016 1st as a sweetener to offset the extra year of Bickell, instead of wasting it on Ladd.

The best option of course would have been to not take back any salary on the sharp trade.

Well they weren't living off of hindsight at the time, and TT and a 1st to get rid of Bickell? I would have rather had TT and a 1st than Saad going into last year without a doubt, and you wouldn't find anyone that wouldn't. That's just silly. Bickell was a no go, and they knew it. Couldn't trade him while he had health issues, and they would have had to gut a lot of picks/prospects to get rid of him if they even could.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Can't help but feel that if Bowman traded Seabrook instead of Saad then the complaints here would be made by many of the same people but instead they'd be saying we traded a "top 3 Dman who was a huge part in winning 3 cups for a barely 50 point winger making $6M AAV".

A hole was made in our lineup either way. It's the reality of the salary cap and having Stanley Cup-caliber players on your roster.

 

[DPHawk]

Are you serious w/ the Ovechkin thing?
He scored 50 goals in 79GP.

Only 71 points in 79 GP which isn't PPG (or all that close) and he doesn't have an elite defensive game, that's your standard of a 1W not mine.

Are Cam Atkinson and Justin Williams top line W?

No, never said they were, there are 60 spots but some teams don't have any, some teams have more than 2 (like most Hawks teams).

As for the last part of your post, so 3 (if you don't count Kessel-debatable) in how many years is frequent?

Kessel only 59 points last year and 61 the year before, both with 82 GP, he's clearly not an elite defender so he doesn't fit your criteria. I only looked back to 2012, figured 3 out 5 years was good enough but Lucic was the only Bruin wing with 60+ points (62), are you counting him as elite defensively? No one on the '09 Pens or '08 Wings meets the criteria either. The Hawks are pretty much the only team to win with elite number one wings in recent years.

 

[hawksrule]

Well they weren't living off of hindsight at the time, and TT and a 1st to get rid of Bickell? I would have rather had TT and a 1st than Saad going into last year without a doubt, and you wouldn't find anyone that wouldn't. That's just silly. Bickell was a no go, and they knew it. Couldn't trade him while he had health issues, and they would have had to gut a lot of picks/prospects to get rid of him if they even could.

At this time last year TT + a late 1st was not remotely worth Saad. Not close.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Only 71 points in 79 GP which isn't PPG (or all that close) and he doesn't have an elite defensive game, that's your standard of a 1W not mine.


No, never said they were, there are 60 spots but some teams don't have any, some teams have more than 2 (like most Hawks teams).



Kessel only 59 points last year and 61 the year before, both with 82 GP, he's clearly not an elite defender so he doesn't fit your criteria. I only looked back to 2012, figured 3 out 5 years was good enough but Lucic was the only Bruin wing with 60+ points (62), are you counting him as elite defensively? No one on the '09 Pens or '08 Wings meets the criteria either. The Hawks are pretty much the only team to win with elite number one wings in recent years.

I'm not even going to get into an argument on Ovechkin. He has pretty much had a point per game in every season he has played, and scored 50 goals last year. Enough said. 71pts in 79GP is close enough for me. 53pts in 82GP doesn't even compare.

Well Cam Atkinson and Justin Williams had the same amount of points as Saad did last year. they must be top line W.

Kessel is debatable because he has done a point per game before, and was actually one of the highest scorers in the league there for a few years. The only reason it is debatable is because of his recent downward trend in points in the regular season. In the playoffs he was basically a point per game, making him an elite W in the playoffs.

And yeah, not many teams have "elite" W's that win the Cup. So why do we need Saad (not that he is elite)?

 

[Hawkaholic]

At this time last year TT + a late 1st was not remotely worth Saad. Not close.

Completely disagree.
I think we would have been ecstatic to get a top end prospect and a 1st for Saad in a deal. Not to mention, we would have saved 5+mil in cap space if we made that deal.

How was TT and a 1st not remotely worth Saad? That's laughable you think that. Either that or you are completely overrating Saad.

 

[hawksrule]

Completely disagree.
I think we would have been ecstatic to get a top end prospect and a 1st for Saad in a deal. Not to mention, we would have saved 5+mil in cap space if we made that deal.

How was TT and a 1st not remotely worth Saad? That's laughable you think that. Either that or you are completely overrating Saad.

No, you are significantly overrating TT.