Has Dubas failed at his job?

[Blowfish]

This is truly scary to think about.

Truly is....I forgot to mention the soon to be exiting Mike Rielly. They had so much promise and then all blew up with the dumb Tavares signing.

 

[Westlander]

even without a flat cap these deals were still above market , AM's cap hit should have been for 8 yrs and MM should have been about 9m per at that term

also JT is grossly overpaid for what he brings and yes ufa's get overpaid but there was no reason for us to sign a player at ufa prices when they don't fill a need

I'm not actually defending those contracts, just pointing out that it is not true that Covid affected all teams equally. Timing is everything.

I agree with you on Matthews and Marner. I had always said that Nylander-Marner-Matthews should have been 7 - 9 - 11 million at max term.

The Tavares contract shouldn't really have mattered as UFAs and RFAs had always been apples and oranges. Our RFAs somehow managed to erase that distinction though which is a gross failure on the part of our management lead by Dubas.

 

[hotpaws]

In fairness, Matthews has more goals in 5 seasons than McDavid has in 6 seasons. Matthews has a scorers premium. It’s really incorporated in to scorers contracts. It is real. Matthews gets paid extra because he scores better than mostly everyone consistently. Thats a added value that needs to be accepted in his value. Same with marner being a point scoring machine. He got a premium on a 94 point season plus his moron agent wanted his bonus schedule on Elc renegotiated.
That said, they should have never been given anything but a bridge contract for team negotiating power and player rights retention alone.
McDavid is a different ball of wax for sure nonetheless

so goal scorers get paid a premium and point producers who don't score at high level get paid a premium ?

maybe it's just easier to say Dubas pays everyone a premium because he's a weak incompetent bitch

also we're discussing some of the top players in the game so yea they all get paid but somehow Dubie paid more than everybody else for some reason

Rantanen waited for Marner to bend over Dubie and reset the market but even when that happened Sakic just told him to give his f***ing head a shake and told him Dubie's outliers don't set the market so Ranta who's scores at a much higher level while producing similar pts overall eventually reduced his demands and settled for just over 9m at the same term .

how about we just accept the fact that Dubie overpaid and stop trying to defend the deals he handed out ?

 

[Racer88]

so goal scorers get paid a premium and point producers who don't score at high level get paid a premium ?

maybe it's just easier to say Dubas pays everyone a premium because he's weak incompetent bitch

also we're discussing some of the top players in the game so yea they all get paid but somehow Dubie paid more than everybody else for some reason

Rantanen waited for Marner to bend over Dubie and reset the market but even when that happened Sakic just told him to give his f***ing head a shake and told him Dubie's outliers don't set the market so Ranta who's scores at a much higher level while producing similar pts overall eventually reduced his demands and settled for just over 9m at the same term .

how about we just accept the fact that Dubie overpaid and stop trying to defend the deals he handed out ?

It truly boggles the mind, that’s for sure

 

[Gary Nylund]

All fine and good. Hypothetically.
The reality sets in when they look at the price they have to pay in talent and assets going out the door. Seems a minimized stance on a complex trade. I wouldn’t trade him right now or possibly ever. The guy has numbers better than McKinnons first 5 seasons for example and many other top players. Why would we want to trade him before he breaks out and in to his prime years. I think the simple solution is put him with Tavares again. The combo has degenerated in to a predictable mess and Tavares, Marner was never predictable because Tavares is so busy down low ( much harder to deal with down low than Matthews). Matthews has become a sitting duck sliding in to the left side and waiting. Tavares/ Marner together has more flow.
Matthews needs to get engaged more than that. He’s 6’3” 220 and stands around waiting for Marner passes way to much. They need to be not a fixed pair 100% the time.
Keefe should break up the line and try Tavares Marner again. They generate more unpredictable play together.

It's all about the playoffs, McKinnon and Marner both have 5 years worth of playoff stats to look at.
McKinnon - 69 points over 50 games.
Marner - 25 points over 32 games.

By the numbers, Marner is a pip-squeak while McKinnon is a giant.

Some reasons that make me think trading him is worthy of consideration:
1)
our team sucks in the playoffs and so does Marner

2)
there is no guarantee he "breaks out" in the playoffs so can't really count on that

3)
we have a top heavy team that has failed for many years now the way it's built

 

[Twine Tickler]

anyone who has this idea that Lou would have shaped our franchise better really needs to look deep at exactly what would have been. Lou has negotiated good deals for Barzal and Pelech. Something that people on here would suggest Dubas would have overpaid for probably both of those players if he was put in the same spot. well, look where the rest of the money that Lou saved has gone...

it is actually laughable how some of you think that Lou would have put us in a better space. He just gave Kyle Palmeri 5million over 4 years after giving them 13pts in 36 games.

at least our over pt/game players are the only overpaid players on our team. I have said it over and over again, there is about 6-7 million dollars of overpayment on JT + MM + AM contracts combined. All were signed with a projected increase in the cap year over year prior to the pandemic. Lou has signed these scrubs, for an astronautical value to remain the overachieving team that couldn't get it done already. and apparently needs to still make moves to be compliant to the cap... as well as add a LD as per spittin chicklets lol.

Dubas overpaid on superstars that the rest of the league would gladly take off our hands, and Lou has overpaid knuckle draggers that nobody would even consider taking without compensation. See Patrick Marleau deal...

 

[Wafflewhipper]

so goal scorers get paid a premium and point producers who don't score at high level get paid a premium ?

maybe it's just easier to say Dubas pays everyone a premium because he's weak incompetent bitch

also we're discussing some of the top players in the game so yea they all get paid but somehow Dubie paid more than everybody else for some reason

Rantanen waited for Marner to bend over Dubie and reset the market but even when that happened Sakic just told him to give his f***ing head a shake and told him Dubie's outliers don't set the market so Ranta who's scores at a much higher level while producing similar pts overall eventually reduced his demands and settled for just over 9m at the same term .

how about we just accept the fact that Dubie overpaid and stop trying to defend the deals he handed out ?

Lol made me laugh bud. It was a brutal piece of work Dubas done on them contracts. The could have been 3 year deals for all with Willy just coming due for negotiations this off season,Matthews and Marner next season coming due. The value of the bridge deals would have been significantly less, the negotiations this time are in a flat cap if if.
Then we go after the 8 year deals if justified by play etc. This is why i accuse him of thinking he is smarter than the game. He learned from Lou Lam for christ sake. Lou just signed or announced 4 signings today. I guess they had to wait until Lou felt like it eh
Dubas was a as soft as his players yes.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The Tavares contract shouldn't really have mattered as UFAs and RFAs had always been apples and oranges. Our RFAs somehow managed to erase that distinction though

Tavares' contract (and UFA contracts in general) had no relevance to our RFA negotiations.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

It's all about the playoffs, McKinnon and Marner both have 5 years worth of playoff stats to look at.
McKinnon - 69 points over 50 games.
Marner - 25 points over 32 games.

By the numbers, Marner is a pip-squeak while McKinnon is a giant.

Some reasons that make me think trading him is worthy of consideration:
1)
our team sucks in the playoffs and so does Marner

2)
there is no guarantee he "breaks out" in the playoffs so can't really count on that

3)
we have a top heavy team that has failed for many years now the way it's built

Matthews and Marner have 1 goal between them the last 5 seasons in playoffs elimination games. The last one was in game 6 against the Capitals 5 years ago. So both have done nothing when we needed them most. Thats pretty much the largest choke job in history of Leafs playoffs ever by top players

 

[Westlander]

Absolutely. Many teams had similar issues. Even without Covid, nobody forced Dubas to be absolutely at the cap line to the point where you have zero wiggle room.

As much as many of us mock him, I was thinking about it and comparing recent Leafs management with Marc Bergevin. Almost everyone can't stand him, and he does some things that seem confounding - but it's hard to argue that he hasn't been more successful. He frequently has teams not spending right to the cap, which he's been criticized for but has also left him flexibility. If Bergevin is a bad GM (many would agree this is the case), what is Kyle Dubas?

I'm glad you mention Bergevin, as he was basically saved by Covid, perverse as that sounds. MTL was dead in the water in 24th place when Covid hit in 2019-20, well out of the playoffs. Instead they are gifted a playoff opportunity and go on a mini-run when the season resumed. This past season they make the playoffs, possibly only due to the unusual divisions (also because of Covid), and make a run to the finals. If I sound like a sore loser, I absolutely respect what the Habs did and think they deserved to beat us last spring. I just think none of it would have happened without Covid.

However, none of that makes Dubas look any better and he needs major success next year or he's toast.

 

[Westlander]

Tavares' contract (and UFA contracts in general) had no relevance to our RFA negotiations.

Well I agree they shouldn't have, but many seem to think now that the Tavares deal gave the RFAs extra ammo. That's now a widely held belief, valid or not.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Well I agree they shouldn't have, but many seem to think now that the Tavares deal gave the RFAs extra ammo. That's now a widely held belief, valid or not.

Widely held or not, it's not valid.

 

[4thline]

Well I agree they shouldn't have, but many seem to think now that the Tavares deal gave the RFAs extra ammo. That's now a widely held belief, valid or not.

That process doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
Marner wanted what Matthews got.
Matthews got significantly more than Tavares, to the point where it makes zero sense for the Tavares numbers to have made an appearance in the negotiation in any meaningful way

 

[Blowfish]

anyone who has this idea that Lou would have shaped our franchise better really needs to look deep at exactly what would have been. Lou has negotiated good deals for Barzal and Pelech. Something that people on here would suggest Dubas would have overpaid for probably both of those players if he was put in the same spot. well, look where the rest of the money that Lou saved has gone...



View attachment 463287

it is actually laughable how some of you think that Lou would have put us in a better space. He just gave Kyle Palmeri 5million over 4 years after giving them 13pts in 36 games.

at least our over pt/game players are the only overpaid players on our team. I have said it over and over again, there is about 6-7 million dollars of overpayment on JT + MM + AM contracts combined. All were signed with a projected increase in the cap year over year prior to the pandemic. Lou has signed these scrubs, for an astronautical value to remain the overachieving team that couldn't get it done already. and apparently needs to still make moves to be compliant to the cap... as well as add a LD as per spittin chicklets lol.

Dubas overpaid on superstars that the rest of the league would gladly take off our hands, and Lou has overpaid knuckle draggers that nobody would even consider taking without compensation. See Patrick Marleau deal...

Lou's team was extremely competitive and difficult to play against last year and this will not change next year. Well rounded team.

 

[Gary Nylund]

it is actually laughable how some of you think that Lou would have put us in a better space. He just gave Kyle Palmeri 5million over 4 years after giving them 13pts in 36 games.

at least our over pt/game players are the only overpaid players on our team. I have said it over and over again, there is about 6-7 million dollars of overpayment on JT + MM + AM contracts combined. All were signed with a projected increase in the cap year over year prior to the pandemic. Lou has signed these scrubs, for an astronautical value to remain the overachieving team that couldn't get it done already. and apparently needs to still make moves to be compliant to the cap... as well as add a LD as per spittin chicklets lol.

Dubas overpaid on superstars that the rest of the league would gladly take off our hands, and Lou has overpaid knuckle draggers that nobody would even consider taking without compensation. See Patrick Marleau deal...

On one hand, some of the contracts Lou has given out seem questionable. On the other hand, his team came within one win of making the finals and if they get there, they're likely the reigning cup champions. He also started from a much weaker position than we were in when at the time he took the reigns for NYI so using the word laughable here seems out of place.

Matthews and Marner have 1 goal between them the last 5 seasons in playoffs elimination games. The last one was in game 6 against the Capitals 5 years ago. So both have done nothing when we needed them most. Thats pretty much the largest choke job in history of Leafs playoffs ever by top players

So why are you arguing that we shouldn't consider trading Marner before he "breaks out"?

 

[hamzarocks]

anyone who has this idea that Lou would have shaped our franchise better really needs to look deep at exactly what would have been. Lou has negotiated good deals for Barzal and Pelech. Something that people on here would suggest Dubas would have overpaid for probably both of those players if he was put in the same spot. well, look where the rest of the money that Lou saved has gone...



View attachment 463287

it is actually laughable how some of you think that Lou would have put us in a better space. He just gave Kyle Palmeri 5million over 4 years after giving them 13pts in 36 games.

at least our over pt/game players are the only overpaid players on our team. I have said it over and over again, there is about 6-7 million dollars of overpayment on JT + MM + AM contracts combined. All were signed with a projected increase in the cap year over year prior to the pandemic. Lou has signed these scrubs, for an astronautical value to remain the overachieving team that couldn't get it done already. and apparently needs to still make moves to be compliant to the cap... as well as add a LD as per spittin chicklets lol.

Dubas overpaid on superstars that the rest of the league would gladly take off our hands, and Lou has overpaid knuckle draggers that nobody would even consider taking without compensation. See Patrick Marleau deal...

Those deals are all fair deals?

Sorokin is a potential superstar. They got him a big core piece for 3 years at 4M. He's a better bet at that price than Mrazek who we went after

Palmieri had 1 down season but prior to that has been a 50+ point guy on the devils. He replaces Eberle for 500k less and has less term associated with him. He also is a good fit for the Islanders play style

Cizilas at 2.5M is a very good deal as he's the best 4C in the league and is a a physical player. It's 2 or 3 years years long but at 2.5M its a deal which cam be moved down the line if the need comes should Cizikas fall off a cliff

Beauvillier has been Pacing at 47ish point pace the past 2 seasons. We gave kapanen 3 years 3.2M when he paced around similar amount after 2019. Beauvillier is more proven than kap was and the caps a bit higher along with Beauvillier having more playoff success than Kap did. 3 years 4.1M is fair deal for a good 2nd line young winger

The Islanders have had success in the playoffs playing a certain style and having players that can play within that systems. These guys have all worked well and had been part of the isles past 3 years of success. Bringing them back was a no brainer. The isles are a better team with Lee coming back than they were in last years ECF run.

The isles have Boychuk who will be put on LTIR. They'll be cap compliant but they should be looking to add a LHD to round out the team

 

[613Leafer]

I can't think of another GM who has inherited so much and done so little with it after three seasons.

You can make excuses galore and even like a whole bunch of things Dubas has done, but at the end of the day it's a results based business and we have had poor results.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Those deals are all fair deals?

Sorokin is a potential superstar. They got him a big core piece for 3 years at 4M. He's a better bet at that price than Mrazek who we went after

Palmieri had 1 down season but prior to that has been a 50+ point guy on the devils. He replaces Eberle for 500k less and has less term associated with him. He also is a good fit for the Islanders play style

Cizilas at 2.5M is a very good deal as he's the best 4C in the league and is a a physical player. It's 2 or 3 years years long but at 2.5M its a deal which cam be moved down the line if the need comes should Cizikas fall off a cliff

Beauvillier has been Pacing at 47ish point pace the past 2 seasons. We gave kapanen 3 years 3.2M when he paced around similar amount after 2019. Beauvillier is more proven than kap was and the caps a bit higher along with Beauvillier having more playoff success than Kap did. 3 years 4.1M is fair deal for a good 2nd line young winger

The Islanders have had success in the playoffs playing a certain style and having players that can play within that systems. These guys have all worked well and had been part of the isles past 3 years of success. Bringing them back was a no brainer. The isles are a better team with Lee coming back than they were in last years ECF run.

The isles have Boychuk who will be put on LTIR. They'll be cap compliant but they should be looking to add a LHD to round out the team

On one hand, some of the contracts Lou has given out seem questionable. On the other hand, his team came within one win of making the finals and if they get there, they're likely the reigning cup champions. He also started from a much weaker position than we were in when at the time he took the reigns for NYI so using the word laughable here seems out of place.



So why are you arguing that we shouldn't consider trading Marner before he "breaks out"?

Lou's team was extremely competitive and difficult to play against last year and this will not change next year. Well rounded team.

The NYI have been in a state of overachievement ever since Trotz came along. He is easily the most impactful coach in the NHL, by a wide margin. He consistently produced results from marginal teams in Nashville, and is doing the exact same in NYI.

I agree, the NYI play a brand of hockey I'd love to see in TOR. But every single player needs to buy in for this to work. At some point, this team will stop getting W's. AT that point, how happy do you think Barzal will be getting muzzled night in and night out? they are a 10 game losing streak away from being a f***ing disaster IMO. Just a lot of blue collar players with the right mindset. It has worked for longer than I would have ever thought, I'll give them that. But now they are committed to that group, like it or not. If the moral, or motivation to continually play this defensive style ever changes, which it did happen in NSH as well, they are left with a bunch of 0.5pt/game players making 5+ mill a year. Not sure they are positioned well to think they have more to give than what they gave last year. Which wasn't enough

 

[Gary Nylund]

I agree, the NYI play a brand of hockey I'd love to see in TOR. But every single player needs to buy in for this to work. At some point, this team will stop getting W's. AT that point, how happy do you think Barzal will be getting muzzled night in and night out? they are a 10 game losing streak away from being a f***ing disaster IMO. Just a lot of blue collar players with the right mindset. It has worked for longer than I would have ever thought, I'll give them that. But now they are committed to that group, like it or not. If the moral, or motivation to continually play this defensive style ever changes, which it did happen in NSH as well, they are left with a bunch of 0.5pt/game players making 5+ mill a year. Not sure they are positioned well to think they have more to give than what they gave last year. Which wasn't enough

You misjudged Lou and the NYI. No worries, we all make mistakes. The lesson you should take away from this IMO is to not be too confident about how you see the NYI going forward.

 

[notbias]

I can't think of another GM who has inherited so much and done so little with it after three seasons.

You can make excuses galore and even like a whole bunch of things Dubas has done, but at the end of the day it's a results based business and we have had poor results.

Sakic has often been called one of the best GMs and his team has done nothing noteworthy...

 

[Wafflewhipper]

anyone who has this idea that Lou would have shaped our franchise better really needs to look deep at exactly what would have been. Lou has negotiated good deals for Barzal and Pelech. Something that people on here would suggest Dubas would have overpaid for probably both of those players if he was put in the same spot. well, look where the rest of the money that Lou saved has gone...



View attachment 463287

it is actually laughable how some of you think that Lou would have put us in a better space. He just gave Kyle Palmeri 5million over 4 years after giving them 13pts in 36 games.

at least our over pt/game players are the only overpaid players on our team. I have said it over and over again, there is about 6-7 million dollars of overpayment on JT + MM + AM contracts combined. All were signed with a projected increase in the cap year over year prior to the pandemic. Lou has signed these scrubs, for an astronautical value to remain the overachieving team that couldn't get it done already. and apparently needs to still make moves to be compliant to the cap... as well as add a LD as per spittin chicklets lol.

Dubas overpaid on superstars that the rest of the league would gladly take off our hands, and Lou has overpaid knuckle draggers that nobody would even consider taking without compensation. See Patrick Marleau deal...

He will trade Varlamov. Looks like a manageable fix to me when i just glanced at their roster at cap friendly

 

[Bomber0104]

anyone who has this idea that Lou would have shaped our franchise better really needs to look deep at exactly what would have been. Lou has negotiated good deals for Barzal and Pelech. Something that people on here would suggest Dubas would have overpaid for probably both of those players if he was put in the same spot. well, look where the rest of the money that Lou saved has gone...


it is actually laughable how some of you think that Lou would have put us in a better space. He just gave Kyle Palmeri 5million over 4 years after giving them 13pts in 36 games.

at least our over pt/game players are the only overpaid players on our team. I have said it over and over again, there is about 6-7 million dollars of overpayment on JT + MM + AM contracts combined. All were signed with a projected increase in the cap year over year prior to the pandemic. Lou has signed these scrubs, for an astronautical value to remain the overachieving team that couldn't get it done already. and apparently needs to still make moves to be compliant to the cap... as well as add a LD as per spittin chicklets lol.

Dubas overpaid on superstars that the rest of the league would gladly take off our hands, and Lou has overpaid knuckle draggers that nobody would even consider taking without compensation. See Patrick Marleau deal...

You know what would actually be laughable?

Watching the Leafs play the Islanders in a best-of-seven.

Considering they're a stronger version of the very mediocre Blue Jackets / Habs that bounced the Leafs in the past two opening rounds, it'd likely be a sweep.

 

[egd27]

Tavares' contract (and UFA contracts in general) had no relevance to our RFA negotiations.

Opinion, not fact.

Unless you claim to be privy to, and can provide evidence of, what was specifically discussed in each of the RFA negotiations.

 

[Twine Tickler]

You misjudged Lou and the NYI. No worries, we all make mistakes. The lesson you should take away from this IMO is to not be too confident about how you see the NYI going forward.

I am looking at a roster that is largely comprised of 28-34 year old players with a truly outstanding superstar in Barzal who is 24. If this team does not win it all in the next year or 2, they will be locked into a state of mediocrity for the following 4 years.

I cannot see them achieving more than what they have already done. Full marks goes to these guys, they play their f***ing hearts out and buy in. Unfortunately you still need more talent than that to win it all. The only team I can recall winning it all on that level of workmanlike attitude that lacked superstar level production was STL. But even they had more elite talent than NYI has every had in there recent runs. Barzal is exceptional. The rest of their team is just good. tough to win when your just good

 

[supermann_98]

To be fair, player agents think he’s doing an amazing job.

They're voting on this poll as they pick up the wife's new Mercedes SUV from the dealership paid for by their percentage cut from the players deal.

Dubas not only gets his players rich, but their player agents come away laughing all the way to the bank as well