Has Dubas failed at his job?

[Wafflewhipper]

On one hand, some of the contracts Lou has given out seem questionable. On the other hand, his team came within one win of making the finals and if they get there, they're likely the reigning cup champions. He also started from a much weaker position than we were in when at the time he took the reigns for NYI so using the word laughable here seems out of place.



So why are you arguing that we shouldn't consider trading Marner before he "breaks out"?

Do you seriously think you are being a tricky dick man. Likely much harder for you to explain why you want to trade him than for me to explain why you keep him.
Who are all these teams you are trading him to? I have to ask since it seems you have it all trumped with your swagger. Lets hear it.
I just don’t agree with anyone that wants to trade him. Easy to say trade him. Easier said than done and makes no sense to me. I just don’t agree with the concept in its most basic thought.

 

[ACC1224]

Using Lou Lam perceived failures on the Island as a way to prop up Dubas has been one of the dumber sentiments shared here.
Who wouldn't want the Leafs to fail so successfully?

 

[Twine Tickler]

You know what would actually be laughable?

Watching the Leafs play the Islanders in a best-of-seven.

Considering they're a stronger version of the very mediocre Blue Jackets / Habs that bounced the Leafs in the past two opening rounds, it'd likely be a sweep.

Ya there is absolutely truth to what your saying there. The Leafs would have lost to them for sure. But the fact of the matter is this Leafs core group is still in their early to mid 20's, wheras the core group that NYI has locked into term are in their late 20's and early 30's with the exception to Beau and Barzal. if it hasn't been the right formula yet, what makes you think it will be in the coming years?

Despite the disappointment in Toronto, there is still many years left for this core group to evolve. That is not the case for NYI. They need to win in the next couple years or they will have a shit ton of 30 something's making more than they should with negative trade value. Despite their playoff success over the last couple years, I'd still rather our roster over theirs any day of the week

 

[ULF_55]

Do you seriously think you are being a tricky dick man. Likely much harder for you to explain why you want to trade him than for me to explain why you keep him.
Who are all these teams you are trading him to? I have to ask since it seems you have it all trumped with your swagger. Lets hear it.
I just don’t agree with anyone that wants to trade him. Easy to say trade him. Easier said than done and makes no sense to me. I just don’t agree with the concept in its most basic thought.

You only trade players if it helps you win.

It would be a failure on Dubas if he didn't want to ice the best team he can because he's more in love with the individual players. Taking into consideration of course trying to win it more than once, so yeah trading marner for MacKinnon might not be the best long term option if he bolts after 2023.

Dubas has to put the team first, over his buddy coach and favorite players.

 

[4thline]

Using Lou Lam perceived failures on the Island as a way to prop up Dubas has been one of the dumber sentiments shared here.
Who wouldn't want the Leafs to fail so successfully?

I see it very much (hopefully) like arguing for Yzerman and Tampa vs. Lou in NJ in the 2012, 2013 period.

New GM inheriting promising team, with a recent 1st and 2nd overall pick, delivering underwhelming short term results while building a team that can be a long term powerhouse, vs veteran tactical mastermind manouvering this way and that to keep a team that's *almost there*, almost there, but running a program that is seeing the sand inexorably head to the bottom of the glass, while being 1-2 middling contract misteps from a purgatory bubble team.

I've been meaning to post this in this thread. But Dubas as inarguably NOT failed at his job. He's failed to deliver short term objectives yes. But barring major cultural rot in the room (that none of us can no about) he's done his job well (that we can see now) that being a successful longterm steward of the organization top to bottom. We have core talent. We have disposal assets. We have a strong prospect pool. If he quit or was fired tomorrow his replacement is in an enviable position.

I HATE the "sports is a results oriented business" deliver wins or else trope that people use to assess sports management. Being a GM is a lot more than making trades, there's organizational philosophy, drafting and development hires, the actual picks themselves, all a long term game. And unless someone is doing batshit insane stuff and legitimately making the organizations position worse, they should be left in place for continuity

 

[ULF_55]

Ya there is absolutely truth to what your saying there. The Leafs would have lost to them for sure. But the fact of the matter is this Leafs core group is still in their early to mid 20's, wheras the core group that NYI has locked into term are in their late 20's and early 30's with the exception to Beau and Barzal. if it hasn't been the right formula yet, what makes you think it will be in the coming years?

Despite the disappointment in Toronto, there is still many years left for this core group to evolve. That is not the case for NYI. They need to win in the next couple years or they will have a shit ton of 30 something's making more than they should with negative trade value. Despite their playoff success over the last couple years, I'd still rather our roster over theirs any day of the week

On the Fan they were just talking about whether MacKinnon and Ovechkin are in similar situations. It took a long time for Ovechkin to make it over that hurdle, and MacKinnon hasn't done it yet, and he's 26. So he's made the 2nd. round, that would be considered quite the failure in Toronto.

 

[hotpaws]

Ya there is absolutely truth to what your saying there. The Leafs would have lost to them for sure. But the fact of the matter is this Leafs core group is still in their early to mid 20's, wheras the core group that NYI has locked into term are in their late 20's and early 30's with the exception to Beau and Barzal. if it hasn't been the right formula yet, what makes you think it will be in the coming years?

Despite the disappointment in Toronto, there is still many years left for this core group to evolve. That is not the case for NYI. They need to win in the next couple years or they will have a shit ton of 30 something's making more than they should with negative trade value. Despite their playoff success over the last couple years, I'd still rather our roster over theirs any day of the week

we literally have 3 young players in our so called core group , 1 of which may bolt for a big U,S, market in three years and many players just as old as the guys your shitting on in the island as well as big money tied up in a regressing JT so i wouldn't be so smug when comparing our future with the Islanders

 

[Mess]

At least our over pt/game players are the only overpaid players on our team. I have said it over and over again, there is about 6-7 million dollars of overpayment on JT + MM + AM contracts combined. All were signed with a projected increase in the cap year over year prior to the pandemic. Lou has signed these scrubs, for an astronautical value to remain the overachieving team that couldn't get it done already. and apparently needs to still make moves to be compliant to the cap....

It's really too bad our own GM can't "remain the overachieving team" that finished in the final 4 in the playoffs the last 2 years, while being named Exec of the year both times by his fellow GM's.

Who would want that really?

Maybe Lou Lam is rewarding playoff performance ... Palmeri @ $5 mil scored 7 playoff goals in 2020-21 playoffs tied for 7th on playoff goal scoring, while AM+ MM +WN + JT for $40.5 mil totaled 6 goals combined. Our pt/game players combined couldn't match Kyle Palmieri playoff goal production and we even had the Rocket Richard winner in that group.

Not sure what point you were trying to make with your post, but it looks like you ended up praising as opposed to criticizing him when using him to attempt to build up Leafs GMs case in comparison.

 

[hotpaws]

On the Fan they were just talking about whether MacKinnon and Ovechkin are in similar situations. It took a long time for Ovechkin to make it over that hurdle, and MacKinnon hasn't done it yet, and he's 26. So he's made the 2nd. round, that would be considered quite the failure in Toronto.

if it only came down to only a player or two then the Oilers would have much more playoff success , the media needs to fill air time so they constantly spew gibberish like this but the fact remains you need depth to go all the way

 

[ULF_55]

It's really too bad our own GM can't "remain the overachieving team" that finished in the final 4 in the playoffs the last 2 years, while be named Exec of the year both times by his fellow GM's.

Who would want that really?

Maybe Lou Lam is rewarding playoff performance ... Palmeri @ $5 mil scored 7 playoff goals in 2020-21 playoffs tied for 7th on playoff goal scoring, while AM+ MM +WN + JT for $40.5 mil totaled 6 goals combined. Our pt/game players combined couldn't match Kyle Palmieri playoff goal production and we even had the Rocket Richard winner in that group.

Not sure what point you were trying to make with your post, but it looks like you ended up praising as opposed to criticizing him when using him to attempt to build up Leafs GMs case in comparison.

Yep, it is so on the players.

 

[ULF_55]

if it only came down to only a player or two then the Oilers would have much more playoff success , the media needs to fill air time so they constantly spew gibberish like this but the fact remains you need deep to go all the way

No doubt the Capitals took a while to get there, and perhaps it will take MacKinnon a while to get there.

Probably applies to other teams as well.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Using Lou Lam perceived failures on the Island as a way to prop up Dubas has been one of the dumber sentiments shared here.
Who wouldn't want the Leafs to fail so successfully?

trust me, no Dubas supporter on here wants to draw that comp. Including myself. Unfortunately this is a comp that routinely gets thrown in here as a "what could have been". If Lou were here Mitch and Auston would be paid 2 million less, and perform 10x better in the playoffs. It's just not the case. He may have paid them less, but he would have spent all that money on retaining Matt Martin and Leo Komarov.

Not sure we were ever a Matt Martin or Leo Komorov away from a Stanley Cup. We need our superstar players to perform when it counts the most. Any GM on the planet would retain MM and AM up until this point in their career. Maybe 25% would decide to go a different direction going forward. If we want to be critical of Dubas having faith in MM and AM, let that critic begin now. Because like I said, there is no GM on the planet that would have decided to do anything differently with respect to those 2 players before this last year. And if there was, they certainly would not be hired by MLSE. Dubas is putting his neck on the line this year with this group. I don't mind it at all. Still 2 more cracks at the can before AM's deal is in its last year. at that point we will have to make some decisions. But we are still very much positioned to compete for the next couple years despite the sour taste some people have on here.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I am looking at a roster that is largely comprised of 28-34 year old players with a truly outstanding superstar in Barzal who is 24. If this team does not win it all in the next year or 2, they will be locked into a state of mediocrity for the following 4 years.

I cannot see them achieving more than what they have already done. Full marks goes to these guys, they play their f***ing hearts out and buy in. Unfortunately you still need more talent than that to win it all. The only team I can recall winning it all on that level of workmanlike attitude that lacked superstar level production was STL. But even they had more elite talent than NYI has every had in there recent runs. Barzal is exceptional. The rest of their team is just good. tough to win when your just good

They battled TB to 3-3 in their series, I don't see how you can say that it wasn't possible for them to beat them and if they do that, they probably win the cup.

Do you seriously think you are being a tricky dick man. Likely much harder for you to explain why you want to trade him than for me to explain why you keep him.
Who are all these teams you are trading him to? I have to ask since it seems you have it all trumped with your swagger. Lets hear it.
I just don’t agree with anyone that wants to trade him. Easy to say trade him. Easier said than done and makes no sense to me. I just don’t agree with the concept in its most basic thought.

I've explained in depth why I'd like to trade him, wasn't that hard really. You don't agree and that's fine.

I've been meaning to post this in this thread. But Dubas as inarguably NOT failed at his job. He's failed to deliver short term objectives yes. But barring major cultural rot in the room (that none of us can no about) he's done his job well (that we can see now) that being a successful longterm steward of the organization top to bottom. We have core talent. We have disposal assets. We have a strong prospect pool. If he quit or was fired tomorrow his replacement is in an enviable position.

I agree and I'm sick of reading the Dubas hate like he's the worst GM in the league, just complete nonsense. The bolded is a big question mark though, at least for me. Why don't we show up to compete when the series is down to one game? It's either some sort of rot or ... what other explanation is there really? They're still too young and "haven't figured it out" yet? I don't know the answer but it's my biggest concern for sure. Had we the same playoff record but battled hard in losing deciding games, I'd be a lot more optimistic about the future. Just my 2c.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Opinion, not fact.

No, it's fact. UFA contracts aren't relevant to post-ELC contracts, and there's absolutely no reason to think anything was different here. Tavares' contract doesn't even align with the RFA contracts, so not sure where this false idea came from.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

You only trade players if it helps you win.

It would be a failure on Dubas if he didn't want to ice the best team he can because he's more in love with the individual players. Taking into consideration of course trying to win it more than once, so yeah trading marner for MacKinnon might not be the best long term option if he bolts after 2023.

Dubas has to put the team first, over his buddy coach and favorite players.

I asked for the trade parameters that will make us better. People seriously have more to say than they show up for and back up these days.
Walk the walk or talk the talk is always the bottom line. Talk is cheap man in that there is no such deal. Why would i agree with that.
That said, i would trade any one of them on the team if they choked again next playoff of god forbid missed the playoffs entirely.
There is no way a fan can come up with a trade that is anything but complete pie in the sky speculation. They all have to be good trades regardless in my simple take.

Why even do it. Why not trade Matthews first. He’s over paid too. Chances are you get picks and prospects and lift up the white flag by trading either. Hard to rationalize that being the case. It’s just not making sense.
The team added some needs this off season and I don’t really trust all of the additions to be a upgrade but there are some good adds. Lets just have at it again with the core. Losing isn’t a option is the expectation. Hell they might be smart to want out if that happens ha

 

[Tripledeke333]

I believe he has. Would love to hear why he hasn’t. When you look at what he inherited the results havnt been good enough. Not many GMs begin their tenure with 3 game breaking offensive talents including a guy who at the time was widely viewed as the second most valuable asset in the league all on their ELC and Rielly on an amazing contract.

I don’t think any other post lockout GM has inherited such a strong team and he has done nothing with it. IMO he is one of the worst GMs in the league (and there are some pretty bad one). I have no idea how anyone can think he did a good job.

 

[ACC1224]

Opinion, not fact.

Unless you claim to be privy to, and can provide evidence of, what was specifically discussed in each of the RFA negotiations.

Agents are going to use any means to get their player the best deal, it's only common sense.
There are no rules laid out stating 'you can't use this or that'.

 

[egd27]

No, it's fact. UFA contracts aren't relevant to post-ELC contracts, and there's absolutely no reason to think anything was different here.

Please provide examples of NHL RFA contract negotiations that you have participated in that can support your assertion.

Otherwise, just an opinion.

 

[egd27]

Agents are going to use any means to get their player the best deal, it's only common sense.
There are no rules laid out stating 'you can't use this or that'.

Of course.

 

[hotpaws]

I see it very much (hopefully) like arguing for Yzerman and Tampa vs. Lou in NJ in the 2012, 2013 period.

New GM inheriting promising team, with a recent 1st and 2nd overall pick, delivering underwhelming short term results while building a team that can be a long term powerhouse, vs veteran tactical mastermind manouvering this way and that to keep a team that's *almost there*, almost there, but running a program that is seeing the sand inexorably head to the bottom of the glass, while being 1-2 middling contract misteps from a purgatory bubble team.

I've been meaning to post this in this thread. But Dubas as inarguably NOT failed at his job. He's failed to deliver short term objectives yes. But barring major cultural rot in the room (that none of us can no about) he's done his job well (that we can see now) that being a successful longterm steward of the organization top to bottom. We have core talent. We have disposal assets. We have a strong prospect pool. If he quit or was fired tomorrow his replacement is in an enviable position.

so Dubas is building a long term powerhouse in your opinion even though none of the pieces who are full time players currently will be part of that future powerhouse outside of the 3 high end forwards he inherited ?

 

[4thline]

so Dubas is building a long term powerhouse in your opinion even though none of the pieces who are full time players currently will be part of that future powerhouse outside of the 3 high end forwards he inherited ?

How many players on the 2013 Lightning (other than the inherited Stamkos and Hedman) won the cup with them / have been a part of their dominance over the last 4 seasons?

 

[4thline]

Agents are going to use any means to get their player the best deal, it's only common sense.
There are no rules laid out stating 'you can't use this or that'.

Yeah but using a guy a tier or two down in value from what you want is a stupid "means"

 

[ACC1224]

Yeah but using a guy a tier or two down in value from what you want is a stupid "means"

We have no idea. I would guess that things are brought up that all the time that those of us not in the know would consider stupid.

 

[hotpaws]

How many players on the 2013 Lightning (other than the inherited Stamkos and Hedman) won the cup with them / have been a part of their dominance over the last 4 seasons?

and what has that to do with you saying Dubas is building for the future when after 3 plus years on the job he hasn't added one player to the current roster that will be part of the this so called future powerhouse ?

seems like just another excuse and why trade all the picks as well keeping his own rentals and then letting them walk for free if he isn't trying to win now but build for the future ?

 

[4thline]

and what has that to do with you saying Dubas is building for the future when after 3 plus years on the job he hasn't added one player to the current roster that will be part of the this so called future powerhouse ?

seems like just another excuse and why trade all the picks as well keeping his own rentals and then letting them walk for free if he isn't trying to win now but build for the future ?

Shhhh, the adults are talking. It's not my responsibility to connect very simple dots for you

BTW, the answer is zero opening day regulars