Has Dubas failed at his job?

[Dekes For Days]

Otherwise, just an opinion.

Nope, still a fact, just like it always has been.

Agents are going to use any means to get their player the best deal

No agent is going to waste time on something as ridiculous as attempting to use a UFA contract as a comparable for a post-ELC contract. They know it won't work, and it would just make them look foolish.

 

[Bomber0104]

Shhh, hush now. Re-read the original post, try to wrap your head around the concept of management continuity and organization building.

Run through Tampa Bay Lightning Franchise History | Hockey-Reference.com and think about all the little tantrums you would have had in early days of Yzerman's tenure.

Are those the concepts that inspired you to year-after-year preach doom and gloom for the Lou-led Islanders since he joined there even though both the team and GM have been light years better than Dubas' Leafs?

Just curious.

 

[4thline]

Are those the concepts that inspired you to year-after-year preach doom and gloom for the Lou-led Islanders since he joined there even though both the team and GM have been light years better than Dubas' Leafs?

Just curious.

No that would be the entirety of his cap era track record. Masterful short term tactical maneuvering, inexorable slow decent as he fails to infill younger talent and care for his team long term. Cup or bust, desolation in his wake.

I've said before, multiple times, that he was the better bet to deliver a cup to Toronto in the short term. But no one is a good bet against the field for a cup in the short term.

 

[Bomber0104]

No that would be the entirety of his cap era track record. Masterful short term tactical maneuvering, inexorable slow decent as he fails to infill younger talent and makes short term moves. Cup or bust, desolation in his wake.

Wow, and in spite of all that nonsense verbiage the Lou-led Islanders have been wildly more successful and far closer to a Cup with their 6 playoff round wins and conference finals appearances.

I can only imagine how you feel about Dubas with his zero playoff round wins.

I bet you're pretty upset at him since all of your predictions for both teams every year have come crashing down and been 100% completely wrong?

 

[egd27]

Nope, still a fact, just like it always has been.

No agent is going to waste time on something as ridiculous as attempting to use a UFA contract as a comparable for a post-ELC contract. They know it won't work, and it would just make them look foolish.

 

[Twine Tickler]

I see it very much (hopefully) like arguing for Yzerman and Tampa vs. Lou in NJ in the 2012, 2013 period.

New GM inheriting promising team, with a recent 1st and 2nd overall pick, delivering underwhelming short term results while building a team that can be a long term powerhouse, vs veteran tactical mastermind manouvering this way and that to keep a team that's *almost there*, almost there, but running a program that is seeing the sand inexorably head to the bottom of the glass, while being 1-2 middling contract misteps from a purgatory bubble team.

I've been meaning to post this in this thread. But Dubas as inarguably NOT failed at his job. He's failed to deliver short term objectives yes. But barring major cultural rot in the room (that none of us can no about) he's done his job well (that we can see now) that being a successful longterm steward of the organization top to bottom. We have core talent. We have disposal assets. We have a strong prospect pool. If he quit or was fired tomorrow his replacement is in an enviable position.

I HATE the "sports is a results oriented business" deliver wins or else trope that people use to assess sports management. Being a GM is a lot more than making trades, there's organizational philosophy, drafting and development hires, the actual picks themselves, all a long term game. And unless someone is doing batshit insane stuff and legitimately making the organizations position worse, they should be left in place for continuity

Well put. As a Dubas supporter, I have been open and honest about the times where I feel he has made mistakes. But he has done a good job overall at positioning this franchise to succeed for a while. Every GM in this league makes mistakes. As great as JT has been for us, it was a contract that ultimately set an internal cap for our core youth. That was a mistake. The Kadri trade felt like a mistake once Barrie left, but at this point is kind negligible. Kadri once again f***ed his team in the playoffs, and Kerf was one of our better players in the playoffs. I love Naz and think he is the better player, but its a manageable loss. It was a deal that made sense at the time, that didn't work out 1 year after, but is now beginning to look a lot better now that we used that money from letting Barrie walk to get Brodie. I was also openly critical of trading Hallander for McCann only to let McCann go. I still feel like that was poor asset management to this day. It remains to be seen if that will bite us.

At the end of the day he has mitigated these mistakes with excellent bargain hunting like Spezza, Bunting, Micheyev, Holl, Campbell all while still managing to fill voids on the back end in Muzz and Brodie. ALl of this despite having 3 players making over 10 million, his biggest undoing apparently. Our roster composition was not poor last year. Every single person on here felt this team was ready to seriously compete. Which is why everyone on here was so keen to spend at the deadline. It unfortunately as you said did not yield results. And now that team that everyone was so smitten on was constructed poorly?? Can't say that makes a lot of sense to me.

We were 2 high and hard's off the glass by Sandin in game 5 away from advancing. We were 2 turnovers in OT in games 5 and 6 away from advancing. We were 1 good game of MM and AM away from advancing. The margin of error was very minimal. And we beat ourselves yet again. But the team was good enough to win then, and it remains that way today.

When, not if, when AM and MM finally figure out how to take over games in the playoffs, we will be serious contenders. If it doesn't end up happening in TO for them, it will at some point in their careers. They are too good of players not to have success at some point. Our window is still very much wide open. I would have loved to see results by now as well, but we cannot overlook the fact that we still have a very talented team, no anchor contracts, and a very deep prospect pool. If that is not a sign of doing a good job I am not sure what is.

 

[4thline]

Wow, and in spite of all that nonsense verbiage they're wildly more successful and far closer to a Cup than the Leafs with their 6 playoff round wins and conference finals appearances.

I can only imagine how you feel about Dubas with his zero playoff round wins.

Where is this place where you redeem last years playoff round wins for a cup? I don't give two shits about playoff success that doesn't end in a cup. That is what will decide Lou's legacy on the Island, or cement as the same as post cap Devil's Lou (all that nonsense verbiage)

 

[hotpaws]

Shhh, hush now. Re-read the original post, try to wrap your head around the concept of management continuity and organization building.

Run through Tampa Bay Lightning Franchise History | Hockey-Reference.com and think about all the little tantrums you would have had in early days of Yzerman's tenure.

again what does that have to do with Dubas ?

i have no idea why people think bringing up Tampa or Wash or any other team has anything to do with what Dubas has done here and i doubt ownership will be looking for excuses o justify keeping Dubas employed as our GM

but like i said , keep having your fun while you can because Dubie's and your time is almost up

 

[4thline]

again what does that have to do with Dubas ?

i have no idea why people think bringing up Tampa or Wash or any other team has anything to do with what Dubas has done here and i doubt ownership will be looking for excuses o justify keeping Dubas employed as our GM

but like i said , keep having your fun while you can because Dubie's and your time is almost up

Are you f***ing serious? What does pointing to the payoff of showing faith despite lack of short term success have to do with arguing against reactionary short term decision making?

I'm sure the bolded is something that comes up a lot in your life.

 

[Beville]

Well,

It all depends what he said he’d achieve when he joined the org.

 

[hotpaws]

Are you f***ing serious? What does pointing to the payoff of showing faith despite lack of short term success have to do with arguing against reactionary short term decision making?

I'm sure the bolded is something that comes up a lot in your life.

the point your ignoring is why you believe Dubas is building a cup contender in the future when he hasn't added 1 full time player in his first 3 years as our GM

basically we have Dubie inheriting 3 high end forwards and burning through assets and adding older players to try to win now but you believe it's all a plan to build a powerhouse in the future ?

lol , this is your weakest argument yet , i know you need some new material but this is just sad

 

[4thline]

the point your ignoring is why you believe Dubas is building a cup contender in the future when he hasn't added 1 full time player in his first 3 years as our GM

basically we have Dubie inheriting 3 high end forwards and burning through assets and adding older players to try to win now but you believe it's all a plan to build a powerhouse in the future ?

lo , this is your weakest argument yet , i know you need some new material but this is just sad

The point your ignoring is why you believe Yzerman is building a cup contender in the future when he hasn't added 1 full time player (that will be around 3-7 years from now according to a crystal ball) in his first 3 years as our GM

basically we have Stevie inheriting 3 high end forwards and a high end defender, burning through assets and adding older players to try to win now, missing the playoffs multiple years, but you believe it's all a plan to build a powerhouse in the future

 

[Twine Tickler]

Dubie's time is almost up and it'll be up to the next GM to clean up the shit show he left behind

Dubas very well may be the victim in all of this if MM and AM once again can't turn the dial up when it matters the most. But what shit show would any new GM have to clean up? this team has a very clearly defined 4 year plan. If this shit show is to clean house, I am positive our new GM will have no issues finding homes for Mitch, Auston, and Willy. With zero retention, and we would acquire massive hauls for all of them. JT on the other hand is the only tougher one to part with, but if we were moving out core pieces, my assumption would be that we would be entering some form of a rebuild? certainly it would not be to remain competitive. So having JT's money on the books is really not an issue for a team that would be rebuilding and actually might help reaching the cap floor.

There are zero contracts on this team that are immovable other than JT's. So there really isn't much of a shit show to clean up. In fact, JT's deal could be retained on our end, and moved for assets as well, because I am confident he would not want to be a part of a rebuild either.

Still struggling to see the shit show someone would have to clean up. Usually when you refer to a shit show it would be like Buffalo or SJ. Those have no promise, and some of the worst contracts in hockey, that cannot be moved. they are locked into dogshit for what appears to be a long time. If the Leafs had an opening, the potential GM's would be creaming their pants just at the thought of picking up where KD has left things

 

[DarkKnight]

I see it very much (hopefully) like arguing for Yzerman and Tampa vs. Lou in NJ in the 2012, 2013 period.

New GM inheriting promising team, with a recent 1st and 2nd overall pick, delivering underwhelming short term results while building a team that can be a long term powerhouse, vs veteran tactical mastermind manouvering this way and that to keep a team that's *almost there*, almost there, but running a program that is seeing the sand inexorably head to the bottom of the glass, while being 1-2 middling contract misteps from a purgatory bubble team.

I've been meaning to post this in this thread. But Dubas as inarguably NOT failed at his job. He's failed to deliver short term objectives yes. But barring major cultural rot in the room (that none of us can no about) he's done his job well (that we can see now) that being a successful longterm steward of the organization top to bottom. We have core talent. We have disposal assets. We have a strong prospect pool. If he quit or was fired tomorrow his replacement is in an enviable position.

I HATE the "sports is a results oriented business" deliver wins or else trope that people use to assess sports management. Being a GM is a lot more than making trades, there's organizational philosophy, drafting and development hires, the actual picks themselves, all a long term game. And unless someone is doing batshit insane stuff and legitimately making the organizations position worse, they should be left in place for continuity

Sorry you’re last paragraph is hilarity personified. You hate that sports is results orientated? Is that why they keep scores and have trophies? Results are all that matters in sports, that’s why it’s competition, win or lose, there is no other metric. Geezus. This isn’t the arts.

 

[4thline]

are you starting to lose it ?

Your post, almost verbatim (edits for Stevie Y's WORSE short term performance), could be used to rail against someone arguing that Yzerman should be given more time in Tampa circa 2013.

 

[4thline]

Sorry you’re last paragraph is hilarity personified. You hate that sports is results orientated? Is that why they keep scores and have trophies? Results are all that matters in sports, that’s why it’s competition, win or lose, there is no other metric. Geezus.

Games yes. Management, no. Managers don't play games, they manage multi-million dollar organizations from the top down. Changing the course of multi-million dollar organizations every couple years based on the results of a couple of games at the end of the year is terrible practice.
Hence the qualifier "that people use to assess sports management". Legacy's are decided by championships, but making decisions based on short term "round wins" is asinine.

 

[hotpaws]

Dubas very well may be the victim in all of this if MM and AM once again can't turn the dial up when it matters the most. But what shit show would any new GM have to clean up? this team has a very clearly defined 4 year plan. If this shit show is to clean house, I am positive our new GM will have no issues finding homes for Mitch, Auston, and Willy. With zero retention, and we would acquire massive hauls for all of them. JT on the other hand is the only tougher one to part with, but if we were moving out core pieces, my assumption would be that we would be entering some form of a rebuild? certainly it would not be to remain competitive. So having JT's money on the books is really not an issue for a team that would be rebuilding and actually might help reaching the cap floor.

There are zero contracts on this team that are immovable other than JT's. So there really isn't much of a shit show to clean up. In fact, JT's deal could be retained on our end, and moved for assets as well, because I am confident he would not want to be a part of a rebuild either.

Still struggling to see the shit show someone would have to clean up. Usually when you refer to a shit show it would be like Buffalo or SJ. Those have no promise, and some of the worst contracts in hockey, that cannot be moved. they are locked into dogshit for what appears to be a long time. If the Leafs had an opening, the potential GM's would be creaming their pants just at the thought of picking up where KD has left things

Dubas a victim . lol .

and your solution is too sell off the kids and do a full rebuild because Dubas overpaid everyone and now can't add solid pieces to compliment the young core he inherited ?

Dubas f***ed this team and he has no one to blame but himself , signing JT ruined whatever potential this team had and that's on him .

 

[hotpaws]

Your post, almost verbatim (edits for Stevie Y's WORSE short term performance), could be used to rail against someone arguing that Yzerman should be given more time in Tampa circa 2013.

who gives a damn about Yzerman and what happed in Tampa? and again , why do you believe that has any bearing on what will happen with the Leafs ?

your just grasping at straws at this point and if/when this team fails again Dubie will be shown the door regardless of how many fairy tales you can invent to amuse yourself on these boards

 

[Twine Tickler]

again what does that have to do with Dubas ?

i have no idea why people think bringing up Tampa or Wash or any other team has anything to do with what Dubas has done here and i doubt ownership will be looking for excuses o justify keeping Dubas employed as our GM

but like i said , keep having your fun while you can because Dubie's and your time is almost up

Comparative Analysis

Comparative Study analyzes and compares two or more objects or ideas. Comparative studies are the studies to demonstrate ability to examine, compare and contrast subjects or ideas. ... Comparing things is essential to basic scientific and philosophic inquiry, which has been done for a long time.

People can compare historical trends and occurrences to suggest a plausible future outcome. It is the same reason why Dubas detractors bring up the fact that no team with a 10 Million dollar player has ever won a cup. They see the data, and they use that as the basis of their argument.

That is how people formulate opinions. Based on logic and reasoning. Hopefully at least

 

[4thline]

who gives a damn about Yzerman and what happed in Tampa? and again , why do you believe that has any bearing on what will happen with the Leafs ?

your just grasping at straws at this point and if/when this team fails again Dubie will be shown the door regardless of how many fairy tales you can invent to amuse yourself on these boards

One last try.

Do you or do you not agree, that for the same reasons you want Dubas gone (lack of short term success despite strong inherited talent and assets being spent on short term adds), that you Hotpaws would have wanted Yzerman fired in 2013 (if you were a lightning fan)?

Do you or do you not agree, that now with the benefit of hindsight that making that decision based on short term results would have been a mistake?

Can you, or can you not see the potential connection?

Three one word answers please

 

[hotpaws]

Comparative Analysis

Comparative Study analyzes and compares two or more objects or ideas. Comparative studies are the studies to demonstrate ability to examine, compare and contrast subjects or ideas. ... Comparing things is essential to basic scientific and philosophic inquiry, which has been done for a long time.

People can compare historical trends and occurrences to suggest a plausible future outcome. It is the same reason why Dubas detractors bring up the fact that no team with a 10 Million dollar player has ever won a cup. They see the data, and they use that as the basis of their argument.

That is how people formulate opinions. Based on logic and reasoning. Hopefully at least

that's great but Tampa and Tor have nothing in common outside of us both having a first overall pick which 1 team gets every year so basically every team which has drafted first overall can say "look at Tampa" and believe they'll win multiple cups in the future which we know by historical trends is highly unlikely

 

[ULF_55]

I asked for the trade parameters that will make us better. People seriously have more to say than they show up for and back up these days.
Walk the walk or talk the talk is always the bottom line. Talk is cheap man in that there is no such deal. Why would i agree with that.
That said, i would trade any one of them on the team if they choked again next playoff of god forbid missed the playoffs entirely.
There is no way a fan can come up with a trade that is anything but complete pie in the sky speculation. They all have to be good trades regardless in my simple take.

Why even do it. Why not trade Matthews first. He’s over paid too. Chances are you get picks and prospects and lift up the white flag by trading either. Hard to rationalize that being the case. It’s just not making sense.
The team added some needs this off season and I don’t really trust all of the additions to be a upgrade but there are some good adds. Lets just have at it again with the core. Losing isn’t a option is the expectation. Hell they might be smart to want out if that happens ha

I think this is their last opportunity.
marner for example is just one player, who is great at getting assists and is good for 20 goals, he's used on the PP and PK.
I think many players could get assists playing with Matthews, so I don't really have a great concern with Matthews falling off a cliff if marner wasn't on his wing.
Now here is a chose 1 below option:

1. marner is a very good player, with a very good cash/real dollar cost next 4 years and therefore quite a few teams would line up to land him
2. marner is overrated and very few teams would have an interest, even with his cash price of $6.25mm for the next 4 years

If you go with 1, Dubas should investigate to see if he can make the team better, especially in the post season where it matters.
If you go with 2, Dubas should investigate to see if he can make the team better, especially in the post season where it matters.

Going with 1 above the return would be pretty good because All Star Wingers always have good value, and marner is young and a large portion of his salary has been paid upfront.
Going with 2 above the return might not be as good, but he's not shown well in the playoffs and his value is inflated playing with Matthews.

We can't argue he's invaluable but no one else would want him in a trade. The cake got ate, there is no cake.

I believe you can apply the same to Matthews, other than the fact assists don't determine games. An unassisted goal is still a thing. An assist without a goal isn't.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Dubas a victim . lol .

and your solution is too sell off the kids and do a full rebuild because Dubas overpaid everyone and now can't add solid pieces to compliment the young core he inherited ?

Dubas f***ed this team and he has no one to blame but himself , signing JT ruined whatever potential this team had and that's on him .

You suggested that there is a shit show that requires cleaning. The specifics of which you have yet to identify. I assumed the shit show you were referring to was the core. Forgive me. I am confused what else it could be. After all, we didn't lose to MTL because Micheyev, Kerfoot, simmonds or a collection of all of those players not showing up. We lost because Mitch, Auston and JT were absent. JT understandably so.

Does TB win if Point an Kuch take a series off? Surely they didn't win on the backs of the Coleman-Gourde-Goodrow line alone. They needed their stars to be stars, which they were.

I suggested selling the core because of my assumption that this was the shit show you were referring to. I identified how simple this in fact would be, because they are star players that are still very young. There would be a lineup of teams happy to give up assets for them. But it sounds like that's not something you are willing to do correct? This core is not the problem is what I am hearing? So rotating out supporting pieces while we wait for the likes of Robby, Amirov, Sandin, and Lilly to push through is not something that interests you?

To me, a shit show is something that requires major work to fix. ie. getting rid of Zaitsev's 8 year deal, that takes some finessing.. Something KD was actually able to do. Not sure that sort of thing would ever be the case for any Dubas successor. The world would really be their oyster. They could stay put with the core that is in place, and continue to do as Dubas has done by rotating in and out the support. Or they could liquidate to rebuild. They could even do a modified rebuild by parting with one core player. Look at SJ. They cannot rebuild if they wanted to. They have 5 terrible contracts that will cement them in mediocrity for 4+ seasons, if not longer. That, is a shit show

 

[hotpaws]

You suggested that there is a shit show that requires cleaning. The specifics of which you have yet to identify. I assumed the shit show you were referring to was the core. Forgive me. I am confused what else it could be. After all, we didn't lose to MTL because Micheyev, Kerfoot, simmonds or a collection of all of those players not showing up. We lost because Mitch, Auston and JT were absent. JT understandably so.

Does TB win if Point an Kuch take a series off? Surely they didn't win on the backs of the Coleman-Gourde-Goodrow line alone. They needed their stars to be stars, which they were.

I suggested selling the core because of my assumption that this was the shit show you were referring to. I identified how simple this in fact would be, because they are star players that are still very young. There would be a lineup of teams happy to give up assets for them. But it sounds like that's not something you are willing to do correct? This core is not the problem is what I am hearing? So rotating out supporting pieces while we wait for the likes of Robby, Amirov, Sandin, and Lilly to push through is not something that interests you?

To me, a shit show is something that requires major work to fix. ie. getting rid of Zaitsev's 8 year deal, that takes some finessing.. Something KD was actually able to do. Not sure that sort of thing would ever be the case for any Dubas successor. The world would really be their oyster. They could stay put with the core that is in place, and continue to do as Dubas has done by rotating in and out the support. Or they could liquidate to rebuild. They could even do a modified rebuild by parting with one core player. Look at SJ. They cannot rebuild if they wanted to. They have 5 terrible contracts that will cement them in mediocrity for 4+ seasons, if not longer. That, is a shit show

teams don't win on the backs a few players trying to carry a roster filled with bargain bin players

Tampa was a very deep team top to bottom with the best goalie in the league backstopping them , if you believe the Leafs roster looked anything like theirs then you should take a much closer look at there team .

but hey , some us are fans of the game and follow a certain team while others get their entertainment by cheering for a GM so who am i to disagree with what people find enjoyable

 

[mydnyte]

i hope your enjoying yourself because as i said your time as Duibies is almost up

and the funny part is you know Dubie is out the door and are just getting your last yuks in as a desperate attempt to direst your anger away from yourself for believing in a failure

Dubas could lose his job tomorrow and i couldnt care less, any GM is easy to replace.
but, he hasnt 'failed' at his job!
his team is one of the most competitive in the league and a cup contender, and will continue to be one for the foreseeable future.
in what world is that failing?
Buffalo would love to be as big a failure as we are.
damn, imagine if we had Holland as our GM with the $$ he's throwing at players that are not quite up to the level of an overpaid Marner/Nylander/Tavares/Matthews.
people freaked that he gave Simmonds 1.5x2 and call Lou a genius giving Cizikas 2.5+ for 6 and gave an RFA who has never hit 40 points 4.15 on a 3 year bridge