Has Dubas failed at his job?

[Gary Nylund]

I agree with you that it's probably more of a case of 'going for it', but I wanted to present the case. There is no way to know for sure. Whatever the case, I think everyone expects that if the team does not at least win a round this year, there will probably be major changes in the front office. There is no way to consider it anything but a failure if this team goes six straight seasons with the type of talent it has and fails to win a playoff round. As I've pointed out for comparison before, the Leafs have gone five straight seasons not winning a round while the Raptors went five straight seasons winning at least one round!

I'm amazed they're getting another kick at the can. For me it's not that we've lost 5 years in a row, it's the pathetic way that we've not even shown up for the deciding game the last 4 years. One time, I can live with that, that's where the expression "one off" comes from right? But two years in a row, that's brutal. At that point there has to be some serious discussion in the organization about what went wrong, why it went wrong and what we need to change to fix it and usually, you'd have some changes at that point. Not us though, we hear the excuse about what on "elite" opponent we were up against (or would have been up against had we showed up to play) and we kept on rolling the same way. Then we lost to CLB, a far less scary opponent, certainly not an "elite" team and once again, we didn't show up to play in the deciding game so that's it, some heads have to roll It's only a matter of figuring out who's heads are rolling but there's no way we can do nothing, that would send the message that there is simply no accountability in this franchise and that's just not realistic, this is the center of the hockey world and a multi billion dollar franchise. Wait what, no major changes, you have to be kidding me!!??!

Ok then, hard to believe but here we go again, on to year four, this time a peach of a schedule, not one top 10 opponent to face all year or in the first two rounds of the playoffs. We were gift wrapped an appearance in the final four so that distracted everyone's focus and allowed management to get away with changing nothing. So what happened, the season ends in the biggest disgrace yet for this core as we couldn't even beat a team against whom we were massive favourites. Even Zeke, the biggest fanboy here who has never seen a failure he can't spin in a positive direction to show how awesome this team is, called it the worst loss in franchise history and said our star players are "choking dogs".

Well that has to be the end of it, there's just no way that you can basically maintain the status quo, let everyone keep their jobs and stay the course, that kind of thing just doesn't happen in a multi billion dollar organization with the eyes of the hockey world on it 24 hours a day.

Well hell, as it turns out, it can happen. Or should I say - it can, and it will. Coming soon to a Scotia Bank Center near you, it's Groundhog Day take 5. You can't make this shit up. Well, I guess maybe you can but at best, it would be a very bad novel that hardly anyone would buy because let's face it, the story is simply not believable.

 

[Racer88]

I'm amazed they're getting another kick at the can. For me it's not that we've lost 5 years in a row, it's the pathetic way that we've not even shown up for the deciding game the last 4 years. One time, I can live with that, that's where the expression "one off" comes from right? But two years in a row, that's brutal. At that point there has to be some serious discussion in the organization about what went wrong, why it went wrong and what we need to change to fix it and usually, you'd have some changes at that point. Not us though, we hear the excuse about what on "elite" opponent we were up against (or would have been up against had we showed up to play) and we kept on rolling the same way. Then we lost to CLB, a far less scary opponent, certainly not an "elite" team and once again, we didn't show up to play in the deciding game so that's it, some heads have to roll It's only a matter of figuring out who's heads are rolling but there's no way we can do nothing, that would send the message that there is simply no accountability in this franchise and that's just not realistic, this is the center of the hockey world and a multi billion dollar franchise. Wait what, no major changes, you have to be kidding me!!??!

Ok then, hard to believe but here we go again, on to year four, this time a peach of a schedule, not one top 10 opponent to face all year or in the first two rounds of the playoffs. We were gift wrapped an appearance in the final four so that distracted everyone's focus and allowed management to get away with changing nothing. So what happened, the season ends in the biggest disgrace yet for this core as we couldn't even beat a team against whom we were massive favourites. Even Zeke, the biggest fanboy here who has never seen a failure he can't spin in a positive direction to show how awesome this team is, called it the worst loss in franchise history and said our star players are "choking dogs".

Well that has to be the end of it, there's just no way that you can basically maintain the status quo, let everyone keep their jobs and stay the course, that kind of thing just doesn't happen in a multi billion dollar organization with the eyes of the hockey world on it 24 hours a day.

Well hell, as it turns out, it can happen. Or should I say - it can, and it will. Coming soon to a Scotia Bank Center near you, it's Groundhog Day take 5. You can't make this shit up. Well, I guess maybe you can but at best, it would be a very bad novel that hardly anyone would buy because let's face it, the story is simply not believable.

This is well put and exactly how I feel. It’s like there is no leadership from ownership to hold these guys accountable. Shanny, Dubas and Keefe just seem to plod along like nothings wrong.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

In all honesty there wasn't a whole lot he could have done to f*** things up. He was hired in 2015 after the Leafs had already selected Mitch, Willy and Mo. He and Shanny acquired a HHOF level coach who served as a major building block in our early development IMO. Together they devised an all time level tank job to have a chance at AM34. It worked. The Freddy deal was great for what it was worth. Freddy really gave us stability for 3.5 out of those 5 years. Something we hadn't had for over a decade prior. He made a couple deadline acquisitions in Boyle and Plecanec I believe. Both high prices, but the deals made sense to reward the team at the time. The Marleau deal was idiotic, and the Zaitsev Contract was a calculated risk that failed. I am less upset about Zaitsev as he did perform really well as a rookie, and just shit himself thereafter. It was a swing and a miss, but it really could have been a home run at the time. Marleau was a contract that was a known issue the day it was signed as it had that 3rd year. It did end up f***ing us as expected, and we lost draft capital to offload it. All n all I am not sure what he did that was so ground breaking in either direction. The best thing he ever did was orchestrate a tank job for a chance to win a lottery to select Matthews. I wouldn't say his tenure was poor either, he did set a culture I think we could use a bit more of nowadays. But he was not the savant some people make him out to be.

His work on the island is hella impressive no question. But lets not forget he was prepared to sign JT to that exact same deal. The same deal the Dubas haters criticize to no end. Ultimately the best thing he did was hire Trotz. Trotz gets the absolute most out of every player. Its remarkable. Together they have made a strong team, but its really a case of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. A great team mindset to have, but there will come a time when that mindset shifts, and the talent on paper is just not good enough to keep them afloat. The culture they have created and enforce needs to be applauded, not necessarily the team that has been assembled. Because if you put that roster with any other coach and GM, I am not even sure they make the playoffs.

Good post.

Should also add about his drafting. He was only apart of 2 drafts for the Leafs but under Lou/Hunter we really have nothing to show for their drafts outside of Matthews. All that's left from their tenure in the system is Liljegren and Brooks and why the Marlies were very weak last year. Everyone one else has either busted or have been moved. There is an outside chance for Scott and Woll but they are both looking like long shots now. Even looking at Lou's 3 drafts with the Isles its not looking good there either. Their top prospects are probably Raty and Wilde at this point. Raty could be very good as he had top 5 pedigree going into the year but fell all the way to the middle of the 2nd round. Wilde is an interesting player but has question marks. Their pool is incredibly weak which won't bode well for them having an aging team.

 

[Bomber0104]

He's failing at his job but as long as he's the active GM of the Maple Leafs he hasn't yet failed.. always an opportunity at redemption.

The only redemption will be a deep playoff run.

Their easiest conceivable path ever was last year playing Montreal and Winnipeg/Edmonton and they couldn't even get past hurdle one.

Humiliating.

Imagine when the competition is now Tampa/Boston/Florida/NYI ?

I know Matthews thought Montreal was funny and all but how about those teams?

 

[Marmoset]

I'm amazed they're getting another kick at the can. For me it's not that we've lost 5 years in a row, it's the pathetic way that we've not even shown up for the deciding game the last 4 years. One time, I can live with that, that's where the expression "one off" comes from right? But two years in a row, that's brutal. At that point there has to be some serious discussion in the organization about what went wrong, why it went wrong and what we need to change to fix it and usually, you'd have some changes at that point. Not us though, we hear the excuse about what on "elite" opponent we were up against (or would have been up against had we showed up to play) and we kept on rolling the same way. Then we lost to CLB, a far less scary opponent, certainly not an "elite" team and once again, we didn't show up to play in the deciding game so that's it, some heads have to roll It's only a matter of figuring out who's heads are rolling but there's no way we can do nothing, that would send the message that there is simply no accountability in this franchise and that's just not realistic, this is the center of the hockey world and a multi billion dollar franchise. Wait what, no major changes, you have to be kidding me!!??!

Ok then, hard to believe but here we go again, on to year four, this time a peach of a schedule, not one top 10 opponent to face all year or in the first two rounds of the playoffs. We were gift wrapped an appearance in the final four so that distracted everyone's focus and allowed management to get away with changing nothing. So what happened, the season ends in the biggest disgrace yet for this core as we couldn't even beat a team against whom we were massive favourites. Even Zeke, the biggest fanboy here who has never seen a failure he can't spin in a positive direction to show how awesome this team is, called it the worst loss in franchise history and said our star players are "choking dogs".

Well that has to be the end of it, there's just no way that you can basically maintain the status quo, let everyone keep their jobs and stay the course, that kind of thing just doesn't happen in a multi billion dollar organization with the eyes of the hockey world on it 24 hours a day.

Well hell, as it turns out, it can happen. Or should I say - it can, and it will. Coming soon to a Scotia Bank Center near you, it's Groundhog Day take 5. You can't make this shit up. Well, I guess maybe you can but at best, it would be a very bad novel that hardly anyone would buy because let's face it, the story is simply not believable.

I understand the sentiment. For example, I think the Leafs should be actively exploring deals for Marner and Rielly, for different reasons. Marner to try and balance the roster, Rielly because we either lose him for nothing next summer or sign him to a contract likely much larger than he will be worth. (Moving JT would be better but that is just not realistic right now.) This doesn't mean I'd move either guy as it depends on what is out there, but they should not be untouchable - only 34 is worthy of that status right now. Dubas said he will stick by his core - that's not really a surprise, and I think even he knows he will live or die with how it plays out this season.

Having said that, it's rare to fire someone like Dubas in what is still a fairly short tenure. It's basically been three seasons. He wasn't GM for the first two losses. He was absolutely GM during CBJ and MTL. I'm not thrilled with what he has/hasn't done going into the season, but I think he should have this season to demonstrate progress. BUT, one thing I definitely hope ownership/Shanahan ensure is that if the season takes a turn for the worse (injuries, general ineptitude, whatever), and they are borderline or out of the playoffs, Dubas is not allowed to mortgage the future approaching the deadline in an attempt to salvage the season. Hopefully we never get there.

If next season is a failure, I don't think the buck should stop with Dubas. I think every single member of the front office should be up for review, including Shanahan.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Dubas wasn't wrong to go all in at the TDL. He was wrong with who he targeted though.

 

[DarkKnight]

no one is cheering for a GM dude.

First day here?

 

[ULF_55]

I'm amazed they're getting another kick at the can. For me it's not that we've lost 5 years in a row, it's the pathetic way that we've not even shown up for the deciding game the last 4 years. One time, I can live with that, that's where the expression "one off" comes from right? But two years in a row, that's brutal. At that point there has to be some serious discussion in the organization about what went wrong, why it went wrong and what we need to change to fix it and usually, you'd have some changes at that point. Not us though, we hear the excuse about what on "elite" opponent we were up against (or would have been up against had we showed up to play) and we kept on rolling the same way. Then we lost to CLB, a far less scary opponent, certainly not an "elite" team and once again, we didn't show up to play in the deciding game so that's it, some heads have to roll It's only a matter of figuring out who's heads are rolling but there's no way we can do nothing, that would send the message that there is simply no accountability in this franchise and that's just not realistic, this is the center of the hockey world and a multi billion dollar franchise. Wait what, no major changes, you have to be kidding me!!??!

Ok then, hard to believe but here we go again, on to year four, this time a peach of a schedule, not one top 10 opponent to face all year or in the first two rounds of the playoffs. We were gift wrapped an appearance in the final four so that distracted everyone's focus and allowed management to get away with changing nothing. So what happened, the season ends in the biggest disgrace yet for this core as we couldn't even beat a team against whom we were massive favourites. Even Zeke, the biggest fanboy here who has never seen a failure he can't spin in a positive direction to show how awesome this team is, called it the worst loss in franchise history and said our star players are "choking dogs".

Well that has to be the end of it, there's just no way that you can basically maintain the status quo, let everyone keep their jobs and stay the course, that kind of thing just doesn't happen in a multi billion dollar organization with the eyes of the hockey world on it 24 hours a day.

Well hell, as it turns out, it can happen. Or should I say - it can, and it will. Coming soon to a Scotia Bank Center near you, it's Groundhog Day take 5. You can't make this shit up. Well, I guess maybe you can but at best, it would be a very bad novel that hardly anyone would buy because let's face it, the story is simply not believable.

Agree with the sentiment, but not the facts involved.

While yes, the main players were unchanged, if you're looking at Matthews, marner, Nylander, Tavares, Rielly and Muzzin.
However, Tavares didn't play, Nylander was over point a game, Muzzin out-goaled Rielly.
They brought in grit, at a high cost in Foligno, boostered defense with Hutton and Rittich for backup. Nash for a conditional pick.
To be completely Leaflike neither Foligno nor Nash were 100% and were wasted assets. Bruins signed 33 year old Foligno for 2 years at 3.8, so it isn't like he's considered done, just he got Leafed.

I'm not sure if Tavares wasn't a handy excuse they'd have had this last opportunity. Not sure where you'd peg him, but I'd say Tavares is their 2nd. most important forward, though neck and neck with marner. They bring different tools to the game. But again, Tavares has 37 career NHL post season games and 30 post season points, marner 32 games 25 points, so neither has had a Kessel like influence post-season.

I'm not sure where I have my break even point this year? I think it depends on who they play in the 2nd. round. A competitive 2nd. round might be enough to say tweak the line-up, maybe not? Maybe they have to make the 3rd. round?

Not many players I'd hate to see leave, but there are a few.

 

[4thline]

I agree and I'm sick of reading the Dubas hate like he's the worst GM in the league, just complete nonsense. The bolded is a big question mark though, at least for me. Why don't we show up to compete when the series is down to one game? It's either some sort of rot or ... what other explanation is there really? They're still too young and "haven't figured it out" yet? I don't know the answer but it's my biggest concern for sure. Had we the same playoff record but battled hard in losing deciding games, I'd be a lot more optimistic about the future. Just my 2c.

Sorry missed this yesterday. It all comes down to the handling of the core. If he drew a hard line on Marner and moved on from those salary negotiations for something in the ballpark of second tier OS comp (1st+1st+2nd+3rd- whether by OS or trade) - there would be no discussion to be had. Young team finding it's way, rolling with the punches, making moves, and establishing a strong pipeline of talent to be that second wave. But his insistence on banking on them - the overpay to Marner, unwilling to look at moving on when it doesn't work- will either make him a legend if his faith is vindicated or end his tenure prematurely.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

For me it boils down to this...

So much promise before Tavares....

Prior to the Tavares signing I saw a team on the rise/big time promise and all that was missing was some solid D to set them up for long term success. I admit Tavares was exciting but knew it was the wrong decision / direction knowing the D was critical and two key contracts to be finalized.

Dubas failed the day Tavares was signed and he continues to fail because you simply can't build a solid well rounded team with 3 11 million dollar players. Adding cast offs and end of career players is simply holding on not moving forward.

His next big failure will come the time Marner/Matthews contracts are up and when the very soon to be Tavares contract nightmare hit's the team.

Then comes the soon to be exiting Mike Rielly...

I still disagree. You take the asset and then if you need to reshuffle, you do that. They got him for nothing except money. For me the worst case scenario was always grab Tavares and if you have to, trade Nylander. Ask yourself at the time (not looking back now, at the time) if you would have traded Nylander for prime John Tavares + whatever picks Nylander would have returned. Say, Nylander for John Tavares plus a first and a second or a good prospect and a second.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm not sure if Tavares wasn't a handy excuse they'd have had this last opportunity. Not sure where you'd peg him, but I'd say Tavares is their 2nd. most important forward, though neck and neck with marner. They bring different tools to the game. But again, Tavares has 37 career NHL post season games and 30 post season points, marner 32 games 25 points, so neither has had a Kessel like influence post-season.

I'm not sure where I have my break even point this year? I think it depends on who they play in the 2nd. round. A competitive 2nd. round might be enough to say tweak the line-up, maybe not? Maybe they have to make the 3rd. round?

Not many players I'd hate to see leave, but there are a few.

Again, it's not that they keep losing, it's the way they do it (not showing up for series deciding games).

There is no excuse for that, period. Not Tavares, not Muzzin, not anything else. No matter what, if you're a pro athlete you compete, you play hard and if you can't do it in the most important game of the year for four years in a row, you should be ashamed to show your face in public. The fact that this keeps happening and we're headed for the 5th kick at the can with no significant changes is mind boggling. I've been following pro sports for 50+ years and I can't remember seeing anything like it.

You can look at the Rocket trophy, Marner's 1st all-star selection and expected this and stats until your blue in the face and you can talk yourself into thinking that there are reasons for optimism. However, when I step back and look at the big picture, I see a once proud franchise that had so much promise just a few short years ago turning into a mickey mouse operation that has become the laughing stock of the entire hockey world. This is now officially an embarrassing shit show, I wish I could say otherwise but as the saying goes - it is what it is.

 

[Havoc]

If Rielly signs for Parayko money this thread better get deleted from existence.

 

[ACC1224]

If Rielly signs for Parayko money this thread better get deleted from existence.

You believe that Rielly taking a discount is down to some Dubas' negotiating whizardry or is it something else?

 

[ULF_55]

Again, it's not that they keep losing, it's the way they do it (not showing up for series deciding games).

There is no excuse for that, period. Not Tavares, not Muzzin, not anything else. No matter what, if you're a pro athlete you compete, you play hard and if you can't do it in the most important game of the year for four years in a row, you should be ashamed to show your face in public. The fact that this keeps happening and we're headed for the 5th kick at the can with no significant changes is mind boggling. I've been following pro sports for 50+ years and I can't remember seeing anything like it.

You can look at the Rocket trophy, Marner's 1st all-star selection and expected this and stats until your blue in the face and you can talk yourself into thinking that there are reasons for optimism. However, when I step back and look at the big picture, I see a once proud franchise that had so much promise just a few short years ago turning into a mickey mouse operation that has become the laughing stock of the entire hockey world. This is now officially an embarrassing shit show, I wish I could say otherwise but as the saying goes - it is what it is.

Oh, once proud franchise? This franchise's pride has been the money it makes for decades, not what it has accomplished after they expanded from 6 teams.

Original 6 pride, even those of us who watched those last Cups don't feel "Proud" should be used today.

In the earlier disasters, you could look at the players and say, there're little more than kids.

The core will all be 24 and older this season, and with all having played more than 300 games, are far removed from rookie.

If they have any pride, we'll see a different team this year or we'll see a different team next year!

 

[Gary Nylund]

Oh, once proud franchise? This franchise's pride has been the money it makes for decades, not what it has accomplished after they expanded from 6 teams.

Once proud, yeah it was a long time ago. Still sad though.

If they have any pride, we'll see a different team this year or we'll see a different team next year!

This is the third summer that we've been saying such things and it wouldn't surprise me the least bit to be saying the same things next summer.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

No Dubas supporter is saying that he hasn't made mistakes. We are saying he is not the problem. He has always exercised his reasoning with the purpose of sustained success. Which is something no GM prior has even given an ounce of thought to. They'd much rather mortgage the future for the now. Despite the ramifications.

If we are going to go in a different direction, I'd much rather it be from a GM that has always had the future of this organization as the priority and not making shoot from the hip decisions to prolong their own tenure.

Not sure where this is coming from, Doobler burns through 1st round picks faster than Evander Kane burns through his moneyphones. Remember the Foligno debacle?

 

[All Mod Cons]

Once proud, yeah it was a long time ago. Still sad though.



This is the third summer that we've been saying such things and it wouldn't surprise me the least bit to be saying the same things next summer.

If we fail in embarassing, pathetic fashion again, I hope Kyle and the core get another season and they just tinker with the bottom 6.

Why? I don't know. Just seems to be the thing to say.

 

[zeke]

Think it's funny that a GM who brings in Tavares, Muzzin, Brodie, and 2 starting goalies is accused of "just tinkering with the bottom 6".

 

[Gary Nylund]

If we fail in embarassing, pathetic fashion again, I hope Kyle and the core get another season and they just tinker with the bottom 6.

Why? I don't know. Just seems to be the thing to say.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Think it's funny that a GM who brings in Tavares, Muzzin, Brodie, and 2 starting goalies is accused of "just tinkering with the bottom 6".

 

[kb]

Think it's funny that a GM who brings in Tavares, Muzzin, Brodie, and 2 starting goalies is accused of "just tinkering with the bottom 6".

Yup. There is a whole pile of delusion that has to go into that line of thinking. Or willful discrediting to double down on a failing agenda.

 

[zeke]

Compare that list to all the core pieces Lou or Burke added in their time here.

Go.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Compare that list to all the core pieces Lou or Burke added in their time here.

Go.

Not interested in wasting my time like that. But you go ahead and knock yourself out if you're so desperate to distract yourself from facing the truth.

 

[zeke]

Not interested in wasting my time like that. But you go ahead and knock yourself out if you're so desperate to distract yourself from facing the truth.

Oh hey look Gary can't answer a simple question again.

Yuge surprise.

 

[Racer88]

Think it's funny that a GM who brings in Tavares, Muzzin, Brodie, and 2 starting goalies is accused of "just tinkering with the bottom 6".

Tavares was the domino that started this unbalanced team.
I like Muzzin and Brodie but do you really think either of those goalies are starting goalies up a cup contender?