Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[DaPhazz]

Nah, peak Karlsson was the ultimate dude

 

[Peltz]

It's worse than Nurse (44%) and Fox (42%).

But "He's elite defensively! Karlsson was never even close to being as good defensively as Makar!"

Lol. Clearly that's blatantly false. Not only is Makar being on the ice for over half of the 5v5 goals scored against his team a pretty bad look, but Karlsson being on the ice for only 31% while playing 28 minutes a night is absurd. Legitimately ridiculous results.

Ummm… this could just mean that karlsson played with other d-men that defended poorly when he was off the ice. It’s a dumb stat to measure these players. It doesn’t mean Karlsson defended better than these other guys. It just means he defended better than his teammates by a bigger margin than these guys. That’s all.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Ummm… this could just mean that karlsson played with other d-men that defended poorly when he was off the ice. It’s a dumb stat to measure these players. It doesn’t mean Karlsson defended better than these other guys. It just means he defended better than his teammates by a bigger margin than these guys. That’s all.

Okay so we can't say Karlsson was on the ice for less goals against in more games and playing more minutes because league scoring is up. We can't say it also because Karlsson had Craig Anderson in nets. And now we can't say that he was on the ice for only 31% of his team's goals against because that just means his teammates were shit.

So we just have to accept Makar is far better defensively than Karlsson because... you said so? Literally no evidence to support this claim, and in fact, the only evidence being shown is evidence that suggests Karlsson is the superior defensive player. But just trust you, right?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Ummm… this could just mean that karlsson played with other d-men that defended poorly when he was off the ice. It’s a dumb stat to measure these players. It doesn’t mean Karlsson defended better than these other guys. It just means he defended better than his teammates by a bigger margin than these guys. That’s all.

And… you don’t think Makar benefits from the awesome team his on vs Karlsson who played on crap?

 

[TheRarestDangles]

Karlsson was on the ice for 31% of the goals scored against Ottawa in 2017. Makar has been on the ice for 52% of the goals scored against Colorado so far. Try again.

So what? Makar has contributed far more offensively as well as defensively. Don't have 2017 playoff possession numbers/advanced stats, but Makar is pretty damn dominant right now in every respect. Comparing playoff seasons up until now, Cale put up 5 goals vs Karlsson's 2, and is a +11 in 14 games while Karlsson was a +13 in 19 games (which is pretty much a wash). Cale's PPG is 1.57 these playoffs vs 0.95 for EK.

In the regular season, Cale scored 7 more goals than Karlsson ever has, and topped Karlsson's career high in points with 86. It is also worth mentioning, despite it being a team statistic, that Karlsson is a -77 in +/ in his career. I mean holy God you actually think this guy was the best player/defenseman in the world? Cale's peak, by virtually every metric, is higher than Karlsson's BEST season, and Cale is only 23 years old.

Oh and by the way he's about to go to the Stanley Cup finals, and may add a hell of a lot of hardware far exceeding anything EK has even come close to.

 

[Romang67]

So what? Makar has contributed far more offensively as well as defensively. Don't have 2017 playoff possession numbers/advanced stats, but Makar is pretty damn dominant right now in every respect. Comparing playoff seasons up until now, Cale put up 5 goals vs Karlsson's 2, and is a +11 in 14 games while Karlsson was a +13 in 19 games (which is pretty much a wash). Cale's PPG is 1.57 these playoffs vs 0.95 for EK.

In the regular season, Cale scored 7 more goals than Karlsson ever has, and topped Karlsson's career high in points with 86. It is also worth mentioning, despite it being a team statistic, that Karlsson is a -77 in +/ in his career. I mean holy God you actually think this guy was the best player/defenseman in the world? Cale's peak, by virtually every metric, is higher than Karlsson's BEST season, and Cale is only 23 years old.

Oh and by the way he's about to go to the Stanley Cup finals, and may add a hell of a lot of hardware far exceeding anything EK has even come close to.

I don't think anyone is denying that Makar is playing for a much better team than Karlsson ever did. In fact, I'm pretty sure I pointed this out on the first page in this thread.

Discussing postseason success between the two points to either a young poster or someone with a very poor memory.

Here is the top 10 playoff scorers for the 2016/17 Senators that made it within a goal from the Stanley Cup Finals:

1.		Erik Karlsson (D)	77	17	54	71	28	10	|	19	2	16	18	10	13
2.		Bobby Ryan (RW/LW)	62	13	12	25	24	-3	|	19	6	9	15	14	1
3.		Mike Hoffman (LW/C)	74	26	35	61	51	17	|	19	6	5	11	10	3
4.		Derick Brassard (C/W)	81	14	25	39	24	12	|	19	4	7	11	8	-3
5.		Jean-Gabriel Pageau (C)	82	12	21	33	24	13	|	19	8	2	10	16	5
6.		Kyle Turris (C/RW)	78	27	28	55	47	-3	|	19	4	6	10	25	2
7.		Clarke MacArthur (LW)	4	0	0	0	0	-1	|	19	3	6	9	12	5
8.		Mark Stone (RW)	71	22	32	54	25	12	|	19	5	3	8	20	5
9.		Zack Smith (C/LW)	74	16	16	32	61	6	|	19	1	5	6	12	-5
10.		Dion Phaneuf (D)	81	9	21	30	100	-6	|	19	1	4	5	17	-3

And make no mistake, the top 10 is not an arbitrary cutoff the leaves some big names off. The next 3 are 35 year old Burrows and two D-men.

I did.

 

[The Kingslayer]

Im not gonna say that Makar cant play defence. But he is very easily put off that side of the game by a relentless forecheck, particularly behind his goal line. In those instances, he’s not as effective a defender.

Yah he does get in trouble in that spot at times and his penalty killing still needs work. Hes still a very young dman figuring some things out. Lidstrom wasnt flawless 4 yrs in either.

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

People seriously underrate Karlsson's defensive abilities when he was in his prime due to recency bias. His defensive game was more cerebral than someone clearing a net, but he was definitely elite in defending zone entries and routinely was in the top 3 in takeaways. He had the most total over the 6 season stretch from 11-12 through 16-17 while missing nearly a full season in 12-13. You could chalk that up to him eating 30 minutes a night, but he still had the second most per 60 minutes over that span for players with over 200 games played.

He also had better xGA metrics than his peers.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

I don't think anyone is denying that Makar is playing for a much better team than Karlsson ever did. In fact, I'm pretty sure I pointed this out on the first page in this thread.


I did.

Playing better*

I agree man, Lidstrom was only great because he played for incredible Red Wings teams. Phil Housley >>> Nick Lidstrom

 

[Romang67]

Playing better*

I agree man, Lidstrom was only great because he played for incredible Red Wings teams. Phil Housley >>> Nick Lidstrom

No, people are definitely denying that Makar is playing better than Karlsson ever did.

Is anyone arguing that Lidström was great because he won the Stanley Cup 4 times? If you're going to argue against claims that I didn't make, would you mind letting me know beforehand so I can leave you to argue against your strawmen without my involvement?

Edit: Maybe I'm giving you too much credit. If you're actually comparing the difference between Karlsson and Makar to that of Housley and Lidström, then... yikes. You do you.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So what? Makar has contributed far more offensively as well as defensively. Don't have 2017 playoff possession numbers/advanced stats, but Makar is pretty damn dominant right now in every respect. Comparing playoff seasons up until now, Cale put up 5 goals vs Karlsson's 2, and is a +11 in 14 games while Karlsson was a +13 in 19 games (which is pretty much a wash). Cale's PPG is 1.57 these playoffs vs 0.95 for EK.

In the regular season, Cale scored 7 more goals than Karlsson ever has, and topped Karlsson's career high in points with 86. It is also worth mentioning, despite it being a team statistic, that Karlsson is a -77 in +/ in his career. I mean holy God you actually think this guy was the best player/defenseman in the world? Cale's peak, by virtually every metric, is higher than Karlsson's BEST season, and Cale is only 23 years old.

Oh and by the way he's about to go to the Stanley Cup finals, and may add a hell of a lot of hardware far exceeding anything EK has even come close to.

Gee, I wonder why the guy on the stacked team is in the finals vs the guy who played on crap teams? What could it possibly be?

 

[TheRarestDangles]

Is anyone arguing that Lidström was great because he won the Stanley Cup 4 times? If you're going to argue against claims that I didn't make, would you mind letting me know beforehand so I can leave you to argue against your strawmen without my involvement?

"I don't think anyone is denying that Makar is playing for a much better team than Karlsson ever did."

Read what you write ever? You're arguing that Makar is benefiting from his team more than Karlsson ever did. Lidstrom was great because he was great. Karlsson was great because he was great (albeit not for his entire career).

Makar has had a better season + playoffs than Karlsson ever did--not because his team is great--but because he is a great player. He leads the Avs in points, and without him the Avs wouldn't smell the finals. And btw I dislike that notion that the Ottawa roster sucked in 2017. They had a pretty decent team, took the eventual champs to Game 7 in OT, so I find it pretty ridiculous that people act like their entire roster was a joke minus EK.

Also, Housely >>> Lidstrom

Gee, I wonder why the guy on the stacked team is in the finals vs the guy who played on crap teams? What could it possibly be?

I agree, Housley >>> Lidstrom. Lidstrom played for the unbeatable superteam Red Wings his whole career and Housley played for the measly Sabres and Jets (along with others). Your logic adds up very well Mr. Guy.

 

[abo9]

I'll keep my responses focused on the offensive stats, since as we see, defensive stats are not agreed upon.

Cale's PPG is 1.57 these playoffs vs 0.95 for EK.

Yeah? Makar is 5th in playoff points this year after 3 rounds. EK ended up 6th in playoff scoring - not sure how high he was before Ottawa was eliminated but they're pretty much a wash imo.

Makar played less games so I'll give him that, but pts totals make no sense to compare without context.

In the regular season, Cale scored 7 more goals than Karlsson ever has, and topped Karlsson's career high in points with 86.

Again, context please. Karlsson's career high, he led the league in assists and was tied at 4th in points. Makar was not even the best scoring defenseman this year, and 20th in scoring... Makar doesn't even separate himself from his peers offensively as much as Karlsson did in his prime.

It is also worth mentioning, despite it being a team statistic, that Karlsson is a -77 in +/ in his career. I mean holy God you actually think this guy was the best player/defenseman in the world?

You said it yourself, +/- is a team statistic. Makar is playing on one of the best team in the leagues. EK played on wildcard/rebuilding teams his whole career. His first year in SJ being an exception.

Cale's peak, by virtually every metric, is higher than Karlsson's BEST season, and Cale is only 23 years old.

I mean, EK finishing 20th in league scoring is something like his... 4th best season? His best season he was 4th/5th in leaguewide scoring. So no, Makar's best season to date is not better than EK's best season by EVERY metric. It's no better than Karlsson's 4th or 5th best season when compared to peers.

Oh and by the way he's about to go to the Stanley Cup finals, and may add a hell of a lot of hardware far exceeding anything EK has even come close to.

Cool, he's gonna get a... team award? How does that make him better?

As far as individual awards, EK already had a Norris at Makar's age.... and he won a second Norris by age 25. Only 8 defensemen in the history of the NHL have more Norris trophy wins. 4 have more than 3. So you're suggesting that Makar is one of the 4 best defensemen in NHL history?

He's not close to winning Art Rosses anytime soon. He's not gonna win a Rocket. Only one defenseman has ever won the Lindsay award, last D to win the Hart was Pronger in 2000.

Makar better start collecting those Norris quickly to have a "hell of a lot of hardware far exceeding anything EK has even come close to".

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I agree, Housley >>> Lidstrom. Lidstrom played for the unbeatable superteam Red Wings his whole career and Housley played for the measly Sabres and Jets (along with others). Your logic adds up very well Mr. Guy.

You’re not helping your credibility with this nonsense.

Want to say Makar is better? Cool. Make the case. Saying he’s better because he made the finals and Karlsson didn’t is a very stupid argument.

See the difference?

 

[Romang67]

"I don't think anyone is denying that Makar is playing for a much better team than Karlsson ever did."

Read what you write ever? You're arguing that Makar is benefiting from his team more than Karlsson ever did. Lidstrom was great because he was great. Karlsson was great because he was great (albeit not for his entire career).

Makar has had a better season + playoffs than Karlsson ever did--not because his team is great--but because he is a great player. He leads the Avs in points, and without him the Avs wouldn't smell the finals. And btw I dislike that notion that the Ottawa roster sucked in 2017. They had a pretty decent team, took the eventual champs to Game 7 in OT, so I find it pretty ridiculous that people act like their entire roster was a joke minus EK.

Also, Housely >>> Lidstrom

Of course Makar is benefiting from his team more than Karlsson ever did? He has a much better team than Karlsson ever did. And for some inexplicable reason, some people equate team success to player ability.

Do you understand why it doesn't help you to point to Housley and Lidström when I'm not arguing that lack of team success means that a player is better? Or do you for some reason think that's the argument I'm making?

I mean, you are free to believe that Ottawa's roster was good in 2017. It wasn't, but I understand that would help your argument. Feel free to point out specifics about who on the roster was much better than people in 2022 give them credit for.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

You’re not helping your credibility with this nonsense.

Want to say Makar is better? Cool. Make the case. Saying he’s better because he made the finals and Karlsson didn’t is a very stupid argument.

See the difference?

Well every statistical measurement, be it individual or team-based, is nullified by the exceptionally brilliant response that 'Cale plays for the Avalanche'. Cale's peak (right now) is better than Karlsson's peak because the numbers support that he's better.

You see the difference?

 

[Peltz]

And… you don’t think Makar benefits from the awesome team his on vs Karlsson who played on crap?

I'm just saying the statistic is very far from an apples to apples comparison.

I actually don't have an opinion on who is better either way. Peak Karlsson was a force. So is Makar.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

Of course Makar is benefiting from his team more than Karlsson ever did? He has a much better team than Karlsson ever did. And for some inexplicable reason, some people equate team success to player ability.

Do you understand why it doesn't help you to point to Housley and Lidström when I'm not arguing that lack of team success means that a player is better? Or do you for some reason think that's the argument I'm making?

I mean, you are free to believe that Ottawa's roster was good in 2017. It wasn't, but I understand that would help your argument. Feel free to point out specifics about who on the roster was much better than people in 2022 give them credit for.

You're right, Ottawa sucked in 2017 and their goaltending was horrible. EK single-handedly brought them to the conference finals by dent of his godly skills and flowing blonde hair. What's more, I'm sure his grand total of 2 goals in 3 series got them to Game 7 OT of the ECF.

I vehemently agree that hockey is only a team sport when Cale Makar's achievements are being accounted for, and ceases to be a team sport when EK's very brief prime is involved.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

Offensively, no.

Overall, yes.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Well every statistical measurement, be it individual or team-based, is nullified by the exceptionally brilliant response that 'Cale plays for the Avalanche'. Cale's peak (right now) is better than Karlsson's peak because the numbers support that he's better.

You see the difference?

Nonsense.

Karlsson dominated the league at a greater statistical rate than Makar has. That’s a fact. And he did it on lesser teams.

And like I said… it’s very early in Makar’s career. He has lots of time to get there. But he’s not there yet.

Just don’t try to attribute team success towards one individual player being better than the other because it won’t fly. Not in this case anyway.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

Nonsense.

Karlsson dominated the league at a greater statistical rate than Makar has. That’s a fact. And he did it on lesser teams.

And like I said… it’s very early in Makar’s career. He has lots of time to get there. But he’s not there yet.

Just don’t try to attribute team success towards one individual player being better than the other because it won’t fly. Not in this case anyway.

I agree completely my dude. Your logic adds up. Phil Housley >>> Lidstrom

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You're right, Ottawa sucked in 2017 and their goaltending was horrible. EK single-handedly brought them to the conference finals by dent of his godly skills and flowing blonde hair. What's more, I'm sure his grand total of 2 goals in 3 series got them to Game 7 OT of the ECF.

I vehemently agree that hockey is only a team sport when Cale Makar's achievements are being accounted for, and ceases to be a team sport when EK's very brief prime is involved.

Karlsson absolutely dragged them to the semis. Do you actually doubt this?

I mean seriously man have you even watched this guy play?

 

[Hisch13r]

Imagine a prime Erik Karlsson with this amount of help around him.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

Karlsson absolutely dragged them to the semis. Do you actually doubt this?

I mean seriously man have you even watched this guy play?

Of course he is an incredible player. One of the smoothest best skaters I've ever seen. He is in a very elite category with respect to his peak. But Makar is better

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I agree completely my dude. Your logic adds up. Phil Housley >>> Lidstrom

Sorry, I mistook you for someone who might be a serious poster. My mistake.

Have a nice night.