Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Montreal Shadow]

Are you trying to be funny? Come on…

Has to be. Havlat was gone for almost 10 years before Karlsson hit his prime.

 

[umma gumma]

Alfredsson
Spezza
Fisher
Kovalev
Michalik
Karlsson
Cheechoo
Phillips
Almost certain Redden and Havlat was on the team too when Karlsson was in his prime.

Loosley translated: I don't really know what I'm talking about but I'll post anyway.

 

[Vukotal Recall]

Of all the incredible, ridiculous talents that I've personally seen in the league over the last 30 years or so -- and there have been far, far too many to list here, obviously -- only three were mind-meltingly, unfathomably game-controlling at their peaks: Forsberg, Karlsson and Malkin.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Let's see him do it on his own with a bad team like Karlsson did rather than water ski on the coattails of MacKinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog

So any team with more than two good players will always water ski on the coattail?

 

[Freudian]

Makars regular season average P/G is higher than Karlssons best season P/G.
Makars playoff average P/G is higher than Karlssons best post-season P/G.

In the cap era Makar has 1.01 P/G in the regular season (100+ GP). The next two with the highest P/G (Hughes and Fox with 0.80) P/G.
In the cap era Makar has 1.08 P/G in the postseason (30+ GP). The next highest is Pronger with 0.80 P/G. (Fox has higher with 20 games played).

He's also better defensively than Karlsson ever was.

 

[abo9]

Or 11-12 Karlsson, which might be his best season. 25 points ahead of the second highest scoring Dman. 17 5v5 points ahead. Not sure we'll see that kind of dominance again.

To think that the 2013-2017 Erik Karlsson was post-achilles tendon and a "worst version" of a healthy Erik Karlsson.

This article has some good insights from the time:

Senators&amp#039; Erik Karlsson only human in return from Achilles injury

Bruce Arthur: Marc Methot calls the comeback "superhuman," but Karlsson is feeling distressingly mortal, most of the time

nationalpost.com

Heck, even his teammates and coach acknowledged that his play was worst than before. “I don’t think he’s close to what he was,” says Ottawa coach Paul MacLean.

He went on to win another Norris and finish top 5 in scoring in the NHL the year after.

And after his other ankle injury, it's almost ridiculous that he can still play and play at around 50 pts pace for a defenseman:

 

[SuperScript29]

The word potential shouldn't be used for Makar anymore unless you're talking about "He's got the potential to be one of the best players to ever play the game."

He's a superstar of this game and the Conn Smythe favorite right now.

You can say that the Avs are a great team, but you can also say that the Avs became this consistently elite team ever since Makar joined them.

Being a great player on a great team shouldn't discredit what he's done because he's a big reason why they are so good.

Let me be clear then, Makar is a young superstar in today's game, but he's nowhere near the great dmen that ppl seem to be throwing around in this thread.

 

[Fanatik]

22 points in 14 games as a dman this playoffs
Oof
Everyone talking about mackinnon but mackinnon own dman is outscoring him

To be fair, with the way the game is going its not unbelievable to think that defenseman will start having more of a production line with the scoring play coming out of the defensive zone more often

In theory, its not wild if you have a defenseman outscoring a forward in 20ish games, especially in the playoffs where games are tighter in the dzone. And one who moves the puck like Makar

 

[abo9]

Makars regular season average P/G is higher than Karlssons best season P/G.
Makars playoff average P/G is higher than Karlssons best post-season P/G.

In the cap era Makar has 1.01 P/G in the regular season (100+ GP). The next two with the highest P/G (Hughes and Fox with 0.80) P/G.
In the cap era Makar has 1.08 P/G in the postseason (30+ GP). The next highest is Pronger with 0.80 P/G. (Fox has higher with 20 games played).

He's also better defensively than Karlsson ever was.

That makes no sense. You can't just compare points/game in two completely different contexts. Makar has yet to finish 5th in leaguewide scoring as far as I know, which Karlsson did.

Comparing to the next best is pretty solid though, but during Makar's career scoring has been much higher. During the period of 2011-2017, Karlsson was first in pts/game for D's, with 0.91. The next best was Kris Letang at 0.85. Drop off after was 0.74 and 0.69 pts/game (Burns and Byfuglien).

From 2019-20 to 2021-22, Cale Makar leads defensemen in pts/game, but the 2nd best is Roman Josi at 0.98 pts/game and 3rd best is John Carlson at 0.95 pts/game. Even the 4th best (Hedman) is 0.92 pts/game.

The margin between prime Karlsson and his closest competition gets even wider if you shorten his prime (2011-2017 is a pretty long timeline). Take any comparable, prime Karlsson surpass what Makar has done to date offensively. Makar is better at scoring goals though.

 

[filinski77]

Makars regular season average P/G is higher than Karlssons best season P/G.
Makars playoff average P/G is higher than Karlssons best post-season P/G.

In the cap era Makar has 1.01 P/G in the regular season (100+ GP). The next two with the highest P/G (Hughes and Fox with 0.80) P/G.
In the cap era Makar has 1.08 P/G in the postseason (30+ GP). The next highest is Pronger with 0.80 P/G. (Fox has higher with 20 games played).

He's also better defensively than Karlsson ever was.

Also worth considering league scoring averages (unless you believe that 7 players this year would have beat McDavid for the Ross in 2017, and 15 would beat Crosby for #2 that year).

Karlsson peaked with league-wide scoring finishes of 4th, 10th, and 17th. The best Makar has done is 20th so far.

 

[KingAlfie11]

Karlsson and Makar are two phenomenal player, but I would say that what Karlsson did with a very average Ottawa Senators hockey club is more impressive then what Makar is doing surrounded by many superstar players. And let's not forget that when EK was at his best the league was way more low scoring league too. Imagine what a prime Karlsson would be able to do playing with this year Colorado team? I think Karlsson would have cross the 100pts plateau! I don't think that Makar would have been able to do what Karlsson did if Makar was playing with Ottawa.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

Electric, fun yes but he was also watching how opponents were scoring.

Than you are not one of the best.

I think that his defensive lapses were overblown. I think it was magnified when he had issues in his own end, but man that guy was possessing the puck like crazy and was a point-machine!

 

[MadLuke]

I feel it is very possible to have surpassed prime Karlsson, peak 2017 playoff Karlsson is less obvious.

+48, 86 points in 77 games, is maybe better than the average prime Karlsson season.

Peak Karlsson could still be a step above that, few player in the 2008 and up changed the pace and event rate of a game like peak Karlsson did, maybe none, very often it only rised both the goal for and goal against at the same time on a harsh situation to win.

But sometime it clicked in both direction like the 2017 playoff and he was completely changing the result of games by himself and a rare to be such ostensibly visible way (well outside goaltenders).

During the 2017 playoff with Karlsson on the ice, Ottawa at 5v5 was 23 GF, 11 GA, without him they were 12 GF, 25 GA, that a complete 180, 183 shot fors vs 173 shots againts with him, 276 sf vs 313 shots against without him.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

Karlsson and Makar are two phenomenal player, but I would say that what Karlsson did with a very average Ottawa Senators hockey club is more impressive then what Makar is doing surrounded by many superstar players. And let's not forget that when EK was at his best the league was way more low scoring league too. Imagine what a prime Karlsson would be able to do playing with this year Colorado team? I think Karlsson would have cross the 100pts plateau! I don't think that Makar would have been able to do what Karlsson did if Makar was playing with Ottawa.

That would be nuts. With this year's scoring prime Karlsson would be in heaven. 35 year old Kris Letang put up 10g-58a this season on a mediocre Penguins team. Prime Karlsson could legit push 90-100 points.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

Karlsson and Makar are two phenomenal player, but I would say that what Karlsson did with a very average Ottawa Senators hockey club is more impressive then what Makar is doing surrounded by many superstar players. And let's not forget that when EK was at his best the league was way more low scoring league too. Imagine what a prime Karlsson would be able to do playing with this year Colorado team? I think Karlsson would have cross the 100pts plateau! I don't think that Makar would have been able to do what Karlsson did if Makar was playing with Ottawa.

Yeah but Karlsson couldn't ever defend like Cale can. Cale puts up insane offensive numbers and is excellent defensively.

 

[abo9]

That would be nuts. With this year's scoring prime Karlsson would be in heaven. 35 year old Kris Letang put up 10g-58a this season on a mediocre Penguins team. Prime Karlsson could legit push 90-100 points.

Prime Karlsson was 4-5th and 11th in league scoring - top in assists as well.

He'd be sitting at around 95-105 points, realistically something like 80 assists and 20 goals.

 

[Muffin]

Every argument for Karlsson is about his offensive achievement, I thought the most important job of a defenseman is to defend? Would you have Karlsson matched up against McDavid head to head in a series?

 

[KingAlfie11]

That would be nuts. With this year's scoring prime Karlsson would be in heaven. 35 year old Kris Letang put up 10g-58a this season on a mediocre Penguins team. Prime Karlsson could legit push 90-100 points.

I totally agree, Karlsson was a phenominal talent, and did that dealing with some awful injuries too, so listen Makar is a great talent no doubt, but Karlsson did not have the supporting cast that Makar has right now.

 

[Masked]

Every argument for Karlsson is about his offensive achievement, I thought the most important job of a defenseman is to defend? Would you have Karlsson matched up against McDavid head to head in a series?

Considering he did a better job shutting down Crosby in the conference finals than Makar did McDavid, I'd say yes.

Assen na yo!

 

[KingAlfie11]

Every argument for Karlsson is about his offensive achievement, I thought the most important job of a defenseman is to defend? Would you have Karlsson matched up against McDavid head to head in a series?

Yes I would, Karlsson was fast enough and a magnificent skater, I would have no problem playing him against McDavid

 

[Muffin]

Yes I would, Karlsson was fast enough and a magnificent skater, I would have no problem playing him against McDavid

So much more to defending than just being a good skater, by that logic Barrie should be a good defender as well. I don’t think defensively Makar and Karlsson are close at all.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Every argument for Karlsson is about his offensive achievement, I thought the most important job of a defenseman is to defend? Would you have Karlsson matched up against McDavid head to head in a series?

Yup,

Makar vs Ottawa Karlsson:

ESGA/60: Makar 2.6 - Karlsson 2.5
GA/60: Makar 2.3 - Karlsson 2.2
o-zone%: Makar 66.4% - Karlsson 61.6%
CFrel: Makar 12.3 - Karlsson 11.8

With Makar topping out at 25min/gm so far vs 27-29 min/gm for Karlsson in Ottawa

 

[Muffin]

Yup,

Makar vs Ottawa Karlsson:

ESGA/60: Makar 2.6 - Karlsson 2.5
GA/60: Makar 2.3 - Karlsson 2.2
o-zone%: Makar 66.4% - Karlsson 61.6%
CFrel: Makar 12.3 - Karlsson 11.8

With Makar topping out at 25min/gm so far vs 27-29 min/gm for Karlsson in Ottawa

You’re really comparing the league back then to the league now? How many 100 point scorer was there back then compared to now? It’s not the same league anymore.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Yeah but Karlsson couldn't ever defend like Cale can. Cale puts up insane offensive numbers and is excellent defensively.

Makar in these playoffs has been on the ice for more Goals Against than Karlsson in 2017, and he's played 5 less games than him too.

 

[Slurpeelover27]

Let me be clear then, Makar is a young superstar in today's game, but he's nowhere near the great dmen that ppl seem to be throwing around in this thread.