If he wins Stanley Cup, I'd say he was the best player this year.
Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?
- Thread starter SeanMoneyHands
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Mackinnon and Rantanen have yet to finish T-4th in league scoring. Karlsson has.
By the way, huge Makar fan, and he's within reach to surpass Karlsson with the Calder and his current skillset. But Karlsson has two Norrises, an assist title, and two top ten scoring finishes, while leading his team in scoring five times.
abo9
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What Karlsson did in those playoffs is akin to what Price did last year or what McDrai have done this year. Except from the D.
people forget how dominant he was. Best skater in the league at his peak, and perhaps the most valuable player in terms of on ice impact.
Case in point, he finishes 19th in defebseman scoring in his first year with the Sharks (while missing 29 games!!!) and people cal'ed him toast. The year after he was 20th while missing 26 games.
To say that league top-scoring D is a shadow of himself should tell people how good he was in his prime....
Makar just shut down the best player in hockey while producing at the other end. Makar is not potential. He is inevitable.No he hasn't....
People seem to ignore the teams these guys play on. Karlsson was on trash. And he dominated at a level Makar has not reached... yet.
Last week the same guys on HNIC said he wasn't as good as Karlsson, now they're saying Bobby Orr...
Makar is a special player with ridiculous potential. Let's wait and see before declaring him the next Lidstrom or Harvey or... Orr.
Can’t watch raw stats, gives example of raw stats. Lol.
Just by eye test Makar is probably the 2nd best skater in the NHL under only McDavid. He actually plays defense. And has a better scoring touch than Karlsson. If we’re trying to avoid raw
Stats we can just look at eye test. And Makar is the most dynamic defender I’ve seen in 30 years of watching hockey.
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What an arbitrary and useless metric. Karlsson "finished T-4th in league scoring" with 82 points in 2015-16. That wouldn't even crack the top-25 this year. The 2nd leading scorer in 2015-16 (Jamie Benn with 89 points) would have been #17 in the league in 2021-22.
Roman Josi had significantly more points this year than Karlsson ever scored in any year of his career.
Makar >> Karlsson
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
Let's see him do it on his own with a bad team like Karlsson did rather than water ski on the coattails of MacKinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog
orby
Registered User
Makar is astoundingly good, but I agree with those saying that it's hard to judge objectively when Karlsson was playing for much worse teams in a lower-scoring era. In any event, if Makar stays heathy, he will surpass Karlsson by far.
SillyRabbit
Trix Are For Kids
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Yes, scoring finishes are an "arbitrary and useless metric" but raw point totals completely ignoring league scoring rates is the end-all-be-all.
Scoring finishes is a significantly more accurate measurement of a player's offensive ability than raw point totals.
You don't seem to understand how league-wide scoring trends work.
Everything you said just makes Karlsson's 4th place finish more impressive compared to Makar this season, not less, as you seem to be implying.
Skinnyjimmy08
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dr robbie
Let's Go Pens!
Stephen
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No he hasn't....
People seem to ignore the teams these guys play on. Karlsson was on trash. And he dominated at a level Makar has not reached... yet.
Last week the same guys on HNIC said he wasn't as good as Karlsson, now they're saying Bobby Orr...
Makar is a special player with ridiculous potential. Let's wait and see before declaring him the next Lidstrom or Harvey or... Orr.
Makar is the brightest light on a powerhouse.
Tralfamadore
Don't Panic.
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I get wanting to use the poor teams EK played on as an argument especially when comparing those teams to Colorado but I guarantee Makar would also be the top scorer on those teams. More of the teams offense would have to flow through Makar rather than his teammates so maybe he'd put up better numbers. All hypothetical of course but I'm just pointing out that simply stating that those Sens were worse than these Avs isn't an amazing argument for EK.
I think it's undebatable that Makar is a stronge defensive player than EK so that holds some weight.
I think it's undebatable that Makar is a stronge defensive player than EK so that holds some weight.
cudi
Mojo So Dope
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Idk if he's there yet, but he's close.
Some forget how dominant Karlsson was before his Achilles slice. Its a good debate. Both guys were/are special players we're lucky as f*** to get to watch
Some forget how dominant Karlsson was before his Achilles slice. Its a good debate. Both guys were/are special players we're lucky as f*** to get to watch
OKR
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I’d say he was the best player on the best team this year, he clearly isn’t the best player in the NHL tho.
Buck Naked
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Didn't McDavid just score 7 points in 4 games? Makar was on the ice on for 4 goals against last night with a negative xGF%. Is that really shutting down the best player in hockey?
The team argument only makes sense if they're getting roughly the same results. How is making a mediocre team good any better than making a good team dominant?
Cootsfanclub
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People seriously underrate Karlsson's defensive abilities when he was in his prime due to recency bias. His defensive game was more cerebral than someone clearing a net, but he was definitely elite in defending zone entries and routinely was in the top 3 in takeaways. He had the most total over the 6 season stretch from 11-12 through 16-17 while missing nearly a full season in 12-13. You could chalk that up to him eating 30 minutes a night, but he still had the second most per 60 minutes over that span for players with over 200 games played.
A 4th place finish in scoring completely arbitrary in comparing Karlsson and Makar. Connor McDavid scored 48 points in 45 games in 2015-16 and was/is a much better player than Karlsson.
Ice time also factors heavily into scoring. In 2015-16 Karlsson played 2375 minutes total. The highest forward (Kopitar) played 1690 minutes. In 2021-22 Makar played 1976 minutes total.
Being on a bad team also meant that Karlsson was on the ice for hundreds more minutes than usual. Karlsson's 5v5 Points Per 60 in 2015-16 was #185 in the league (1.55 5v5 P/60) tied with Tom Kuhnhackl, Chris Stewart and Alex Killorn.
86 points in 1976 minutes >> 82 points in 2375 minutes
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
Until you account for teammates (Mackinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog) and scoring era. Let's not act like Karlsson's peak was in some high flying era like the current one. This season, league scoring average as .40 gpg higher than during Karlsson's peak.
Also, 86 pts doesn't mean much when you arent even the highest scoring defenseman, Josi bested him by 10 with 96 points and Hedman was 1 behind at 85. Karlsson outscored the #2 defenseman (Burns) by 10
Puckstop40
Registered User
Makar just had 9 in 4 as a defenseman and yes, he kept McDavid at bay overall.
WarriorOfGandhi
Was saying Boo-urns
Voight
#winning
Certainly... Karlsson was a blackhole defensively while Makar is strong at both ends.
Conspiracy Theorist
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