Has Cale Makar already surpassed a prime Erik Karlsson in just his first 4 years?

[Muffin]

Makar in these playoffs has been on the ice for more Goals Against than Karlsson in 2017, and he's played 5 less games than him too.

You really think the league back then is comparable to the league now? GA is also a terrible stat to judge a player on, GA is a team stat.

So according to you Karlsson only put up 18 points in 19 points that year, Makar put up 22 points in 14 games. So I guess they’re not close offensively then.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

You really think the league back then is comparable to the league now? GA is also a terrible stat to judge a player on, GA is a team stat.

So according to you Karlsson only put up 18 points in 19 points that year, Makar put up 22 points in 14 games. So I guess they’re not close offensively then.

The poster said Karlsson couldn't defend like Makar, but he did better against Crosby than Makar did against McDavid. All the GA stat means is that Karlsson was a fine defender himself in his prime.

And Ottawa scored less goals than Makar. Makar has contributed to 34% of his team's goals, while Karlsson contributed to 40%

Ottawa also allowed more goals than Colorado. Karlsson was on the ice for 31% of the goals scored against Ottawa in 2017, Makar has been on the ice for 52% of goals scored against Colorado this year. If you look at the numbers, it seems like Karlsson was actually better defensively out of the two, which doesn't surprise me.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

Makar in these playoffs has been on the ice for more Goals Against than Karlsson in 2017, and he's played 5 less games than him too.

Craig Anderson with a 2.34 GAA and .922 save percentage. + League scoring was wayyy down then. Games were pretty tight. Didn't see many 8-6 games did we?

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Craig Anderson with a 2.34 GAA and .922 save percentage. + League scoring was wayyy down then.

Karlsson was on the ice for 31% of the goals scored against Ottawa in 2017. Makar has been on the ice for 52% of the goals scored against Colorado so far (and Karlsson played an extra minute than Makar per game). Try again.

 

[Romang67]

Every argument for Karlsson is about his offensive achievement, I thought the most important job of a defenseman is to defend? Would you have Karlsson matched up against McDavid head to head in a series?

The guy who didn't allow a goal against in the Olympics or the guy who with a 1.61GA/60 in the 2017 playoffs?

Either way, yes?

I'm not sure why people feel the need to pretend that Karlsson didn't show that he was fully capable of playing well defensively in his prime. He was just more offensively inclined due to the Senators' brutal excuse for a roster.

 

[Buck Naked]

Makar has been on the ice for 52% of the goals scored against Colorado so far (and Karlsson played an extra minute than Makar per game). Try again.

That's actually pretty brutal.

 

[abo9]

Karlsson was on the ice for 31% of the goals scored against Ottawa in 2017. Makar has been on the ice for 52% of the goals scored against Colorado so far (and Karlsson played an extra minute than Makar per game). Try again.

That's pretty telling lol.

Interestingly too, EK had a 59.3% offensive zone starts deployment. Makar 63.2%, so one can't even argue that EK was being sheltered from defensive assignments compared to Makar.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

That's actually pretty brutal.

It's worse than Nurse (44%) and Fox (42%).

But "He's elite defensively! Karlsson was never even close to being as good defensively as Makar!"

Lol. Clearly that's blatantly false. Not only is Makar being on the ice for over half of the 5v5 goals scored against his team a pretty bad look, but Karlsson being on the ice for only 31% while playing 28 minutes a night is absurd. Legitimately ridiculous results.

 

[josra33]

Surpassed of him being a better offensive defenseman?

Karlsson was just not a very good defenseman but Makar has better players surrounding him.

Yupp those snipes that Makar makes are just his team making him look better.

 

[Muffin]

It's worse than Nurse (44%) and Fox (42%).

But "He's elite defensively! Karlsson was never even close to being as good defensively as Makar!"

Lol. Clearly that's blatantly false. Not only is Makar being on the ice for over half of the 5v5 goals scored against his team a pretty bad look, but Karlsson being on the ice for only 31% while playing 28 minutes a night is absurd. Legitimately ridiculous results.

That happens when you’re matched up head to head against McDavid and Draisaitl all night. Crosby was never at the same level as those two offensively

2022 NHL Western Conference Finals: COL vs. EDM | Hockey-Reference.com

2022 NHL Western Conference Finals: COL vs. EDM

www.hockey-reference.com

Makar finished a +4 while McDavid was -4 in the series. Makar won his match up against McDavid 5 on 5.

 

[The Kingslayer]

22 points in 14 games as a dman this playoffs
Oof
Everyone talking about mackinnon but mackinnon own dman is outscoring him

Hes not just scoring hes also playing solid defense. 4 Games vs Mcdavid and he went toe to toe and outpointed Connor. Granted 5 of those 9 points came last night but still impressive especially in a close out game.

Yupp those snipes that Makar makes are just his team making him look better.

Yah ha nothing to do with Cale lol people are hilarious. The Avs are as good as they are because of Cale.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

Yupp those snipes that Makar makes are just his team making him look better.

You don’t understand he doesnt only snipe and is able to play that way due to a very good team ?

Okay.

 

[Slimmy]

What an arbitrary and useless metric. Karlsson "finished T-4th in league scoring" with 82 points in 2015-16. That wouldn't even crack the top-25 this year. The 2nd leading scorer in 2015-16 (Jamie Benn with 89 points) would have been #17 in the league in 2021-22.

Roman Josi had significantly more points this year than Karlsson ever scored in any year of his career.

Makar >> Karlsson

Scoring is up league wide.

 

[SPF6ty9]

Karlsson was on the ice for 31% of the goals scored against Ottawa in 2017. Makar has been on the ice for 52% of the goals scored against Colorado so far (and Karlsson played an extra minute than Makar per game). Try again.

Good stat. Karlsson's defense gets a bad name because he did seem to loaf and conserve energy at times during the season. Probably because he was on the ice so much. But when it was an important game or situation, he was excellent at both ends of the ice.

The best answer is Karlsson probably had the higher peak so far. But in a decade and barring injury, Makar will probably be recognized as the better defenseman.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

That happens when you’re matched up head to head against McDavid and Draisaitl all night. Crosby was never at the same level as those two offensively

2022 NHL Western Conference Finals: COL vs. EDM | Hockey-Reference.com

2022 NHL Western Conference Finals: COL vs. EDM

www.hockey-reference.com

Makar finished a +4 while McDavid was -4 in the series. Makar won his match up against McDavid 5 on 5.

Okay? Nobody ever said that Makar was bad against McDavid. The claim was that Karlsson couldn't defend at the level Makar has been so far. The extreme difference on their Goals Against heavily suggests otherwise.

Btw, their GA% for the first two rounds (no McDavid and no Crosby) were 28% for Karlsson, and 55% for Makar. Pretty close to the same (a difference of 3% for both, which is less than a one goal difference). So no, that's not what happens when you're matched up against McDavid. That's what happens when one dman was clearly a bit better defensively than the other.

 

[Buck Naked]

That happens when you’re matched up head to head against McDavid and Draisaitl all night. Crosby was never at the same level as those two offensively

I thought he shut them down though?

 

[Romang67]

That happens when you’re matched up head to head against McDavid and Draisaitl all night. Crosby was never at the same level as those two offensively

2022 NHL Western Conference Finals: COL vs. EDM | Hockey-Reference.com

2022 NHL Western Conference Finals: COL vs. EDM

www.hockey-reference.com

Makar finished a +4 while McDavid was -4 in the series. Makar won his match up against McDavid 5 on 5.

Did he? Makar finishing +4 while McDavid finished -4 doesn't mean that Makar won his matchup against McDavid.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

www.naturalstattrick.com

According to this, McDavid actually outscored Makar 5 on 5. According to that, Makar slowed McDavid down from his GF/60 of 6.56 5 on 5 all the way down to 6.25.

It doesn't really seem like your claims hold up to scrutiny.

 

[koyvoo]

Makar can play defense so yes.

Im not gonna say that Makar cant play defence. But he is very easily put off that side of the game by a relentless forecheck, particularly behind his goal line. In those instances, he’s not as effective a defender.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Good stat. Karlsson's defense gets a bad name because he did seem to loaf and conserve energy at times during the season. Probably because he was on the ice so much. But when it was an important game or situation, he was excellent at both ends of the ice.

The best answer is Karlsson probably had the higher peak so far. But in a decade and barring injury, Makar will probably be recognized as the better defenseman.

I’d like to see the relative possession numbers to get a better sense of things and help to eliminate variables like goaltending.

Regardless, I think threads like this to a disservice to the up and coming player. Clearly he has not surpassed Karlsson as of now.

That doesn’t mean he can’t get there though. Great young player. I just don’t get why people need to jump the gun on stuff like this. If the thread were phrased as a future hypothetical ie: Will Makar surpass Karlsson, it would’ve made for a more interesting discussion.

It’s the same with the Vasilevski threads… he’s on the most stacked team since the Wings in the late 90s and people just ignore it as though it’s irrelevant to his play. BEST SINCE HASEK!!!

These guys are early in their careers - off to great beginnings. Let’s wait to see what they do before declaring them all-time greats.

 

[Muffin]

Did he? Makar finishing +4 while McDavid finished -4 doesn't mean that Makar won his matchup against McDavid.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

www.naturalstattrick.com

According to this, McDavid actually outscored Makar 5 on 5. According to that, Makar slowed McDavid down from his GF/60 of 6.56 5 on 5 all the way down to 6.25.

It doesn't really seem like your claims hold up to scrutiny.

I’m not seeing it in your link?

 

[Buck Naked]

I’m not seeing it in your link?

I'm counting 5-4 McDavid according to that link.

 

[Romang67]

I’m not seeing it in your link?

Not sure if the link worked. It's supposed to show that Makar (with Byram) has 1 goal against in 4 and a half minutes against McDavid, and Makar without Byram has 4 goals against in 43 minutes, for a total of 5 goals against in 48 minutes.

Byram is a placeholder. I just needed to get all the Makar minutes against McDavid in there, and NaturalStatTrick doesn't do strict head-to-head on that tool.

 

[Slimmy]

Every argument for Karlsson is about his offensive achievement, I thought the most important job of a defenseman is to defend? Would you have Karlsson matched up against McDavid head to head in a series?

Yes. Karlsson was a take-away machine, shot blocking machine and could control the play like no defenseman I have ever seen.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Makar can play defense so yes.

I would have thought the "Karlsson can't play defense" narrative would have died after the 2017 Sens run, but HFboards gonna Hfboards.

 

[TippinOn44s]

There has been 4 instances of a defenseman scoring 9 or more points in a 4 game playoff series in NHL history.

Cale Makar has 2 of them, this year.