CBC Hot Stove: Habs looking for top 4 D

[Positive Vibes]

Scandella + Granlund/Haula +
for
Galchenyuk

no thanks, i do have intrest in Scandella but isnt Haula your 3rd line C? we need a 2nd line C if anything, Grandlund is still young but hes been in the nhl for 4 seasons and the most goals hes gotten so far is 13, again habs cant give up a guy like chucky im sure other habs fans would but i know i wouldnt as much as a top 4-D man is a need for us. chucky had 30 goals last year and its not his peak and hes part of our future i really dont think there is a trade to be made between the teams like ive said a number of times before.

 

[Agalloch]

"Consider one's audience."

* * *​

Well, mostly it's been about overvaluing Beaulieu. And McCarron. And Scherbak.

Beaulieu has no real value for a team looking to win the cup this year. He could have value to a rebuilding team like Vancouver.

 

[Peter Griffin]

I would do this. With Markov's contract up this year, adding Edler this season would be a great move. Would Edler agree to a trade though?

Edler has said in the past he wouldn't waive his NTC, but continually losing can have an affect on that for sure. I believe Kevin Bieksa said something similar, and when it came time to discuss the idea of moving on he was open to it.

 

[Positive Vibes]

Beaulieu has no real value for a team looking to win the cup this year. He could have value to a rebuilding team like Vancouver.

disagree, i think he needs a new team and you will see a new Beaulieu, hes not getting along with management and its not a new thing. He may not have as much worth as others think he does but he has more value than you think he does for sure,hes only young yet and while he was only with weber a very short time im sure it benefited him he would certainly shine on a cup contender on a 2nd line pairing.

 

[Agalloch]

disagree, i think he needs a new team and you will see a new Beaulieu, hes not getting along with management and its not a new thing. He may not have as much worth as others think he does but he has more value than you think he does for sure,hes only young yet and while he was only with weber a very short time im sure it benefited him he would certainly shine on a cup contender on a 2nd line pairing.

Beaulieu isn't a top 4 on a contender team. Not a chance. So to acquire a top 4, you need more than Beaulieu and a pick/prospect.

 

[Spazkat]

disagree, i think he needs a new team and you will see a new Beaulieu, hes not getting along with management and its not a new thing. He may not have as much worth as others think he does but he has more value than you think he does for sure,hes only young yet and while he was only with weber a very short time im sure it benefited him he would certainly shine on a cup contender on a 2nd line pairing.

You know all the reasons the Habs want to trade him for an actual top 4? Yeah, those are the same reasons a contender isn't going to want him back as the main piece. Contenders don't generally invest in "maybes" - especially when it means giving up one of their bona fide top 4 D to do so. That's not how you stay a cup contender.

Yes, I'm sure there is a team that's willing to take the time and risk to see if there's more there or if this is what he's always going to be. But the're probably not going to give you a ton for a mystery box either

 

[Readytostart]

This is why we are fans and not coaches ... while playing with Weber, Beaulieu had only 31% successful passes out of his zone while Weber's percentage was in the 70s, thereby creating too many turnovers.

You are quick at bashing the coach but fail to go beyond your "was very impressed", "signs of offensive flair" perceptions.

Anyhow, If I look at the minutes played by newcomers like Radulov, Lekkonen and Danault there's plenty of room for excellent skating and signs of offensive flair don't you think?

That may be true (31 per cent? Really? What's the source for that, please), but if you watched them together, Weber would invariably let Beaulieu do the heavy lifting as far as moving the puck up the ice, whether via pass or carrying it up. Weber would defer to Beaulieu 's mobility, and Beaulieu may have been guilty of trying to do too much.
As far as Radulov goes, he's not a young player. He's a veteran and has been playing like one. He's been amazing. But given the money invested in him, Therrien has no choice but to give him opportunities.
Lehkonen will go back to Finland if he's cut. Therrien has no choice but to give him chances, even though he's bounced him all over the lineup.
Beaulieu 's always been in Therrien 's doghouse. Never given a real chance to make a difference. Four games with Weber and he's done.

 

[Positive Vibes]

Beaulieu isn't a top 4 on a contender team. Not a chance. So to acquire a top 4, you need more than Beaulieu and a pick/prospect.

i never said otherwise so i dont know why your acting like i did,the habs aren't giving up chucky or gally for a top 4 D-Man no you can forget that. Beaulieu isnt a top 4 because he isnt playing that role in Montreal, that doesnt mean he won't be one, he isnt on good terms with the habs and as long as hes there i dont really see him be able to live up to his full potential where as on another contending team he would shine, he can skate and move the puck,yes he makes mistakes but every D-man does, he doesnt turn over the puck he only makes poor hockey decisions and that may have to do with his situation.

 

[Positive Vibes]

You know all the reasons the Habs want to trade him for an actual top 4? Yeah, those are the same reasons a contender isn't going to want him back as the main piece. Contenders don't generally invest in "maybes" - especially when it means giving up one of their bona fide top 4 D to do so. That's not how you stay a cup contender.

Yes, I'm sure there is a team that's willing to take the time and risk to see if there's more there or if this is what he's always going to be. But the're probably not going to give you a ton for a mystery box either

the habs Dont have to trade with a condtending team for a top 4 D-Man in fact its very unlikely that they do,its going to be with a re building team where a guy like him will be wanted and will be part of a deal for a top 4 -Dman, maybe for Edler and if that doesnt work out theres other teams out there that would have interest in him.

 

[Agalloch]

i never said otherwise so i dont know why your acting like i did,the habs aren't giving up chucky or gally for a top 4 D-Man no you can forget that. Beaulieu isnt a top 4 because he isnt playing that role in Montreal, that doesnt mean he won't be one, he isnt on good terms with the habs and as long as hes there i dont really see him be able to live up to his full potential where as on another contending team he would shine, he can skate and move the puck,yes he makes mistakes but every D-man does, he doesnt turn over the puck he only makes poor hockey decisions and that may have to do with his situation.

He *could* be one. That's why I said that contending team will not want him right now.

I expect him to be part of a trade to a rebuilding team for a Vet D.

 

[KingTux]

I would trade Beaulieu. Sergachev is 100% on the team next year.

 

[Positive Vibes]

He *could* be one. That's why I said that contending team will not want him right now.

I expect him to be part of a trade to a rebuilding team for a Vet D.

i just said that in the previous comment to somebody else lol

 

[Sojourn]

No. We do not need to mortgage more of our future. Weber was able to help other defensemen look much better when in Nashville. He helped them develop. He can do the same here. Emelin is not a long term top 2 option, agreed, but Beaulieu and Barberio can both be trained to do the job if Therrien could simply accept that young players need to make some mistakes to get better.

Interesting. Times change, I guess.

Yes, Perry for Beaulieu is ridiculous. So is Fowler for Pacioretty. 30-40 point defencemen are not that rare. Yes, Fowler is top pairing on your team. He would be 2nd pairing on Montreal. Fowler is more comparable to Petry, and neither would get you a Pacioretty or Perry. I also do not think Fowler is better than Beaulieu. Beaulieu has not been given significant top pairing duties like Fowler, yet, because we have more depth on defence than Anaheim. Beaulieu will probably replace Markov when he leaves. Comparing him to Fowler is not an insult, it is a compliment...to Fowler.

Fowler has been your #1 defence man because you have not had any other. Perry was a #1 defence man in Edmonton, it does not mean he was a top pairing defender. The same is true of Folwer. He has never produced in the top 30 defensemen in terms of points, and while he has gotten much better defensively, he is still at #2 at best. Markov and Subban are, never mind were, they both still are better than Fowler. As I said before, Fowler is far more comparable to Petry than a true top pairing guy. He is a great #3, a solid #2, an unfortunately necessary #1. Beaulieu will be at least as good as Fowler. You know, I remember having a similar argument with some Ducks fans when Fowler was drafted and some tried say he was better than Subban. I told people then that Fowler was not in Subban's class because I know hockey. I am telling you now, Fowler is far more comparable to Beaulieu than you will like once Beaulieu gets his chance.

So, the comparison is far closer, even if you ONLY "stats watch". For an old goat like me, who actually watches hockey, and has for decades, the comparison is even closer because I look at the player first, the team and the reputation of the player, second. Unlike some, I do not get blinded by a name on a jersey.

Is it still a compliment to Fowler to be compared to Beaulieu? Still 5th in ice time in Montreal, and still underwhelming?

At what point is a player not getting his chance because he doesn't deserve it?

If we are trading for a top 4 D we might as well trade Beauleu to get him as we won't be able to protect Beau in the expansion draft anymore (assuming the new guy isn't a rental).

Roll with:

new guy - Weber
Markov - Petry
Emelin - Pateryn

for the rest of the season. Protect new guy + Weber + Petry. Either re-sign Markov for much cheaper and trade Emelin to a team looking to replace a guy the lost to LV or let Markov walk and keep Emelin. Either way bring in Serg next year to replace whoever left.

Beaulieu + for Fowler may be a decent baseline for the Ducks as Beau is on a really cap friendly deal this year and he is still a promising young D, he's just not ready for prime time with Weber (if he'll ever be ready).

The + for Fowler would need to be a more valuable asset than Beaulieu himself. Pass.

 

[Sojourn]

They don't, but they would need someone to replace Fowler if they lose him.

They get an upgrade on LW and a downgrade on D. As for us, we get an upgrade on D and a downgrade on LW.

You didn't offer a player to replace Fowler.

 

[Exit Dose]

Is it still a compliment to Fowler to be compared to Beaulieu? Still 5th in ice time in Montreal, and still underwhelming?

At what point is a player not getting his chance because he doesn't deserve it?

They know hockey. That's all that you need to know. Don't ask questions.

 

[Agalloch]

You didn't offer a player to replace Fowler.

Anaheim/Montreal don't make good trading partners right now because both teams are trying to contend. I don't see a trade between them this year.

 

[Viqsi]

Is it still a compliment to Fowler to be compared to Beaulieu? Still 5th in ice time in Montreal, and still underwhelming?

At what point is a player not getting his chance because he doesn't deserve it?

Depends on who you're talking to, probably. There were some Habs fans who were making similar assertions of imminent greatness about Jarred Tinordi right up to the day he was traded.

 

[Sojourn]

Depends on who you're talking to, probably. There were some Habs fans who were making similar assertions of imminent greatness about Jarred Tinordi right up to the day he was traded.

I never really got that. A player can do well in a lesser role and not be equipped for a greater one. As an example, when we had Sbisa in Anaheim, he did well, for a time, in a 3rd pairing role. Some saw it as evidence that he'd be a better defenseman than another player in a tougher role, but any time Sbisa was asked to carry more responsibilities he struggled. Just because there are times a player works his way up the line-up to take on bigger roles, successfully, doesn't mean that applies to every player.

That doesn't mean, at least to me, that a player in a lesser role can't take that next step, but some are way too quick to give them that credit before they've earned it. This is especially true when you're comparing players of similar age. The difference between Fowler and Beaulieu is one year. Exactly one year. If you're going to try to argue that the latter can be as good, or better, than the former, I think you need a damn good argument for why that is the case because he's pretty far behind him. Further behind him than the difference of one year. Much further behind, in fact, even when you consider that players develop at different rates.

It's just become a way of overvaluing your own players vs. more established ones. Somehow, your own players have all the potential in the world, while players on other teams are viewed more realistically(or pessimistically) in what their upside actually is. My player is worth as much, or more, than yours because he has the potential to be. How many top 4 defensemen out there had great potential once upon a time? Most of them, I'd wager.

 

[powerstuck]

Gallagher probably the one guy MTL shouldnt move after Galchenyuk and Price

I agree, but what CAN Habs afford to move that other teams WANT/NEED in exchange of a T4D ? The list is...bleak.

It sucks but there is currently 5 topics involving Habs and they all start the same. We want your best D/C/FW but our top 10 players and our top 10 prospects are a no go. So which garbage bag do you want for your top gem ?

 

[Legend123]

I agree, but what CAN Habs afford to move that other teams WANT/NEED in exchange of a T4D ? The list is...bleak.

It sucks but there is currently 5 topics involving Habs and they all start the same. We want your best D/C/FW but our top 10 players and our top 10 prospects are a no go. So which garbage bag do you want for your top gem ?

lol u do realize every single contending team has a 'bleak' list of players to trade away?? Contending teams dont trade their core. Like always, deals involve a package of lesser players and picks/prospects. Stop making it look like the Habs have nothing relative to other contending teams.

 

[EveryDay]

Depends on who you're talking to, probably. There were some Habs fans who were making similar assertions of imminent greatness about Jarred Tinordi right up to the day he was traded.

Nathan Beaulieu have always been ranked better then Tinordi.....


In 160 games he have 35 points and +20 at 23 years old. He's still one of the best defenceman of his draft year behind Hamilton Larsson and Brodin.

 

[Kraken Jokes]

If a deal is made, it's likely to involve Carr, Hudon, De La Rose, or Scherbak. Our 4th line is signed beyond this year, leaving little room for these guys to make their way in. I'm also not expecting miracles, there's a possibility whoever we get might be a rental and cap space needs to be considered.

 

[57special]

Depends on who you're talking to, probably. There were some Habs fans who were making similar assertions of imminent greatness about Jarred Tinordi right up to the day he was traded.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

A young top 4 D or somebody who can help right now?

If it's right now I would trade Francois Beauchemin as an Avs fan if he was willing to waive. He's major factor on our back end but as our team is building I'd almost rather get an asset for him and call up Bigras to play NHL minutes.

 

[Agalloch]

A young top 4 D or somebody who can help right now?

If it's right now I would trade Francois Beauchemin as an Avs fan if he was willing to waive. He's major factor on our back end but as our team is building I'd almost rather get an asset for him and call up Bigras to play NHL minutes.

What do the Avs need ?