Grade Cheveldayoff's offseaon
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WolfHouse
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- Oct 4, 2020
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WolfHouse
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Very real chance that DeMelo is taken over copp... and that is a more significant loss
If we had a legit RH prospect, no one would notice Appleton is gone... harkins and Ves are same skill level
If we had a legit RH prospect, no one would notice Appleton is gone... harkins and Ves are same skill level
Skidooboy
Registered User
this is the problem. why extend Copp? he is a great player...on a fourth line. the kid can't score. for years the problem with the Jets was secondary scoring. Copp hasn't exactly light it up and isn't showing much ability to. last years playoffs were a great example. he needed to step up after #55 was booted, and couldn't . why do we need him again?
Copp is 6th among Jets players in 5v5 points per 60 minutes over the past 3 years. He's not a top echelon player, but he's a very good and versatile player for the next tier, which I think good teams need.
Here's where he stands in GAR and xGAR for the Jets' forwards over the past 3 years.
He has a strong PK impact, and is no slouch at 5v5.
WolfHouse
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The fancy stats sure make it look like Copp should be in our top six...
But I'm still a huge proponent of using Stats as our 4C to win faceoffs and mentor Harkins/Ves or even Perfetti/Ves
Connor-Scheifele-Wheeler
Perfetti-Dubois-Ehlers
Copp-Lowry-Nash
Harkins-Stastny-Vesalainen
nom nom nom
WolfHouse
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Still concerned that Ehlers and Perfetti are too small to play on the same line - although Perfetti setting up Ehlers is pretty enticing...
I'd still use a fourth line of Perfetti-Stats-Ves for 10-12 mins a game - and get Perfetti eased into the NHL with powerplay time, etc
PP1
Connor-Scheif-Wheeler
Ehlers-Schmidt
PP2
Dubois-Statsny-Ves
Perfetti-Pionk
[QUOTE="WolfHouse, post: 179875365, member: 329615"]Still concerned that Ehlers and Perfetti are too small to play on the same line - although Perfetti setting up Ehlers is pretty enticing...
I'd still use a fourth line of Perfetti-Stats-Ves for 10-12 mins a game - and get Perfetti eased into the NHL with powerplay time, etc
PP1
Connor-Scheif-Wheeler
Ehlers-Schmidt
PP2
Dubois-Statsny-Ves
Perfetti-Pionk[/QUOTE]
Maybe. But Ehlers is hard to catch and even harder to hit, and Perfetti is a terrier who can hold his own on the puck against much larger players, and will only get better. A quick, strong smart centre who can play an effective 2-way game and shoot when he can would be a nice piece to build that line around -- PLD, is that you?
I'd still use a fourth line of Perfetti-Stats-Ves for 10-12 mins a game - and get Perfetti eased into the NHL with powerplay time, etc
PP1
Connor-Scheif-Wheeler
Ehlers-Schmidt
PP2
Dubois-Statsny-Ves
Perfetti-Pionk[/QUOTE]
Maybe. But Ehlers is hard to catch and even harder to hit, and Perfetti is a terrier who can hold his own on the puck against much larger players, and will only get better. A quick, strong smart centre who can play an effective 2-way game and shoot when he can would be a nice piece to build that line around -- PLD, is that you?
best line last year was copp-stsatny-ehlers. copp put up over 3pts ev pts/60 on that line, and just a shade under 2pts/60 when paired with scheifele.
copp is substance-over-style. he doesn't have the skill-set of a top-6er, but seems like each line has a boost in producing shots and chances when he was on there last season. not to mention his individual production was really good given his TOI in that role.
we've seen him carry rookies at C (appleton and lemieux in 18-19) and put up good 5v5 production too.
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I don't have any stats to support this, but I seem to recollect that Copp was instrumental in making Lowry more effective on the ice ... . It's my opinion that this played a key role in assessing what to do with Copp this season, at least. Jet's probably concerned that they would see a sub-standard Lowry if they have to let Copp go in future.
without looking up the stats my memory is that 2-3 years ago Lowry played a decent amount without Copp and his numbers didnt look so good at the start of the season, however Copp was playing with the Jets top 6 and Lowry was playing with gabriel bourque, mark letestu etc...
hard to say if copp makes lowry more effective. i don't doubt they have good stats together (asides from this year where copp-lowry-appleton were no bueno). They are 2 good stand-alone players, and typically have good chemistry when paired together. but we've seen copp be very effective away from lowry in a couple years (18-19 and 20-21 for example)
Historically, Copp and Lowry have had better shot metrics together than apart, but last season Copp's best partner (by far) was Stastny. The Copp-Stastny duo seemed to work particularly well.
My memory tells me that when Copp plays apart from Lowry, he’s with top 6 quality players and when Lowry is apart from Copp, he’s with 4th liners or worse.
wpgfishfan
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- Apr 1, 2014
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18-19 copp was primarily between appleton+lemieux when away from lowry, then perreault-roslovic. combined with those 2 lines they were 16gf 4ga.
19-21 you're right. but we've seen bottom-6 players not produce when inserted in a top-6 role - ie: Roslovic, who is more of a skill-player than Copp imo.
but yea Lowry typically doesn't get top-6 looks. He is not usurping any of the Cs ahead of him. and idk if his game is best suited on the Wing. Ehlers or Connor shouldn't be bumped down in TOI so doubtful if they'd ever be relegated in 3rd line TOI
just to clarify - im not suggesting lowry or copp are carrying one or the other. but we've seen copp in various roles and positions (C or W, playing with bottom-6ers or rookies, or top-6ers) and produce solid results.
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oldunclehue
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- Jun 16, 2010
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This is my concern, we need a coach that get the team to buy in in all situations....I'd prefer we play a little more defensive minded, a Barry Trotz type style with our offence capatalizing on our chances would be nice.
I don't know how Maurice will get the most it can out of this team.
Skidooboy
Registered User
lovely chart. don't care much for imaginary numbers or the fancy stats. I don't care what his Xvs gar/pmt/fenwick on the side and a CORSI for desert says. I like real numbers....points and overall team success....including in the Playoffs. Fancy stats are helpful but hardly definitive. hockey is a complex dynamic game and stats are only so usefull.
If your stats say Copp is top six on a winning team in the NHL? Then I say your methodology is wrong, and you probably havent accounted for background noise and errors properly(something no fancy stats proponents want to ever talk about...the ONLY BRANCH OF STATS THAT DOESN"T it seems cuz every other stat I read has error bars, and acknowledges significance of deviations from the mean in the data.)
Fancy stats like that can shelter a guy like Copp and make him seem more valuable than he is.
Truth is, he doesn't produce much in the way of points. night after night after night he misses good chances to score. His finish is atrocious. He has had lots of ice time, lots of good chances, lots of grade A opportunities to bury pucks and just cannot. 1 15 goal season out of 6 years pro? and fancy stats say he's in our top six? see how much BS fancy stats can be.
This team has had a real problem with secondary scoring and after 411 games and pretty damned good ice time in those games and a LOT of trust from the coach in key times in games.........less than 150 points. when he SHOULD HAVE STEPPED UP IN THE PLAYOFFS LASDT YEAR? 0 POINTS in the second round.
and you are trying to tell me He's top six? nuh unh.
Copp is replaceable, for less than we are paying him. bad moves by Chevy.
MardyBum
Registered User
Even if the Pulock rumor is true, we can't waste another year of our window waiting for him. Management can trade Schmidt (or whoever) next year if Pulock is available and management thinks he's a good fit.
MrBoJangelz71
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- Jan 14, 2014
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Yet we constantly hear over and over, unsolicited by many players he's coached, that he is a great communicator, motivator and has the full respect and attention of the dressing room.
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Well GAR and xGAR metrics including counting stats, but since you only seem interested in goals/points.
Copp was 5th on the Jets in total points (10 points ahead of Stastny and 14 points ahead of Appleton).
At 5v5, he was 6th on the Jets, just 3 points behind Wheeler.
Do I think Copp is a top 6 talent? No. Do I think he's a very good 3rd liner who can move up the lineup in a pinch? Yes. Do I think he offers considerable value defensively and on the PK? Absolutely. Will he be worth 4.5-5M? It depends on the options.
Overall, I think he's a better player than Appleton is, or will be. As long as the Jets can fit his cap space without compromising too much elsewhere, he'll be an asset.
MrBoJangelz71
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Yup, plus you waste another year of your window to finally realize a fact most should have realized several years prior, that most rumors are bullshit.
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