Goalie controversy thread

[TheDizee]

will be curious as to who starts vs the lowly coyotes at home. last time binner played them at home, we lost.

 

[EastVillageBlues]

Well if often stuff like a goaltending or quarterback controversy may be a construct of fans ire, it seems the team and coach are certainly feeling the same this time.

Berube's post-game interview ():

Reporter: "Craig, how do you explain that first period?"
Berube: "We need saves."
Q: "Anything else there?"
Berube: "... Nothing. Nothing. That's it."
"How does Binnington get his confidence back?"
Berube: "I don't know. Play better. I mean, you gotta play better." We don't... but I dunno, that's... a tough question."
Q: "Also, uh... maybe defensemen or forwards, need to share some of the blame there?"
Berube: "Yeah, there's mistakes. I'm not saying there's not mistakes, but, you know, mistakes happen in games."
Q: "And you gotta make saves."
Berube: "Yes."
"So how about the 4-1 against these guys is a big hill to climb, how about the comeback?"
Berube: "I felt like, I said in the first period, after the first period, you know, we're going to get opportunities. We stayed with it and we got a big point... We talked about shooting the puck tonight and we did that, and we were rewarded with five goals.
Q: "A little disappointment though that, five goals, should be enough to..."
Berube: "One hundred percent."

There was a lot of disappointment at the play in our end during the first period last night with good reason, but sometimes the puck rolls over your stick no matter how focused you are, and sometimes it happens a couple times in a row. You can't expect the goalie to bail you out in every one of those situations but they need to in some of them. Binnington did that in the Stanley Cup Finals for us, after all. But last night, and in every game this season, he's not ever able to do that, he's pouring more gasoline onto the fire.

Binnington has clearly lost his confidence for whatever reason, and we're now at the point where the coach and likely the team has also lost their confidence in him. It's hard for me to believe we've reached this point but it really feels like we need to make a difficult move here as it'd be best for all parties involved. I don't know much about the logistics of waiving Binnington or whatnot, but it really feels like something needs to give, and it's hard to imagine the team relying on him even as a backup for the rest of the season.

I said about 5-6 weeks ago that Binnington should be given the rest of the season to prove himself, to see whether he can complete a turn around. Then we should make a decision based on that. And if he didn't show significant improvement by then, then all options should be on the table.

Since that point, he had gotten slightly better playing against a few bottom of the barrel teams, but really has again regressed. We are getting dangerously close to that breaking point now. If he doesn't do a complete 180 in the next few starts, a buy-out this summer should be on the table.

I know, in that case, it would be an extremely tough pill to swallow. But that would be far preferable than having a goalie like what he currently is, taking up the space that he does; and throwing away perfectly winnable games because of his precipitous decline.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

I said about 5-6 weeks ago that Binnington should be given the rest of the season to prove himself, to see whether he can complete a turn around. Then we should make a decision based on that. And if he didn't show significant improvement by then, then all options should be on the table.

Since that point, he had gotten slightly better playing against a few bottom of the barrel teams, but really has again regressed. We are getting dangerously close to that breaking point now. If he doesn't do a complete 180 in the next few starts, a buy-out this summer should be on the table.

I know, in that case, it would be an extremely tough pill to swallow. But that would be far preferable than having a goalie like what he currently is, taking up the space that he does; and throwing away perfectly winnable games because of his precipitous decline.

As undesirable a buy-out would be (and extremely rare with the Blues), for the sake of conversation, what would a buy-out look like? I'm not sure of the rules/procedures and whether negotiation plays a role at all.

 

[EastVillageBlues]

As undesirable a buy-out would be (and extremely rare with the Blues), for the sake of conversation, what would a buy-out look like? I'm not sure of the rules/procedures and whether negotiation plays a role at all.

It would be highly unappetizing, but then again, we seldomly see a goalie contract this bad, if his regression is permanent. Like I said, let's give it a few more games; if he doesn't improve by then, then it would be very likely that he is no longer the goalie that he was when we won the cup, or even the bubble season. It may be a gradual erosion of confidence, may be some change of mentality or professional habits over time, may be that he has been "figured out" by opposing scorers in the league as goalies sometimes are, or for a variety of other reasons.

The preferable thing at that point would be to move him with somewhat less of an impact. It might be possible that we can ship him off to a team that isn't competing soon, and need to hit the cap floor, retaining 30-40%, and then throwing an asset. Targets may be Arizona, Philly, Seattle, Buffalo. Even then, the chances are pretty low that such a team would agree to that, unless it's a primo asset. There are no good choices at that point, all we are left with are the best among a board of terrible choices.

 

[execwrite1]

JR in the Athletic speaks with two goalie coaches. The first compares him to Hammond (uh oh)

He goes in there in 2019, plays really well and wins the Stanley Cup. God Bless him! We all wish we could play like that for that kind of a stretch. But in reality, he’s not that good.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

I said about 5-6 weeks ago that Binnington should be given the rest of the season to prove himself, to see whether he can complete a turn around. Then we should make a decision based on that. And if he didn't show significant improvement by then, then all options should be on the table.

Since that point, he had gotten slightly better playing against a few bottom of the barrel teams, but really has again regressed. We are getting dangerously close to that breaking point now. If he doesn't do a complete 180 in the next few starts, a buy-out this summer should be on the table.

I know, in that case, it would be an extremely tough pill to swallow. But that would be far preferable than having a goalie like what he currently is, taking up the space that he does; and throwing away perfectly winnable games because of his precipitous decline.

Buyout is terrible idea. Goalies are inconsistsnt year to year. Buyout would be hitting us with cap for 10 years. Thats insane. He could easily rebound to closer to average mext year.

Additionally, as bad as binny is thisnyear, he isnt costing us playoff birth and wont start in playoffs. Dont shortaidedly panick.

Give him another year as backup tp try and make comtract less costy to move. Buyout wont be on table til last few years. We dont want a cap hot for 10 years imstead of 5. We are more likely tp flip a pick like we did with lehtera than buyout. Heck itd be better to trade for nothing and retaim half for remaimder of confract than rake buyout.

 

[EastVillageBlues]

Buyout is terrible idea. Goalies are inconsistsnt year to year. Buyout would be hitting us with cap for 10 years. Thats insane. He could easily rebound to closer to average mext year.

Additionally, as bad as binny is thisnyear, he isnt costing us playoff birth and wont start in playoffs. Dont shortaidedly panick.

Give him another year as backup tp try and make comtract less costy to move. Buyout wont be on table til last few years. We dont want a cap hot for 10 years imstead of 5. We are more likely tp flip a pick like we did with lehtera than buyout. Heck itd be better to trade for nothing and retaim half for remaimder of confract than rake buyout.

You would be right if he was backup materiel, which he might have been prior to the most recent spade of games. Right now, he is not just not an average starter in the league, he is not a capable backup. What you propose is just not feasible if he does not rebound in some form, unless we are willing to risk next season as well.

If he continues this pace, he would be costing games even if we would give him 20 games next year. And we would have to somehow find the space for Husso or another legit starter.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

You would be right if he was backup materiel, which he might have been prior to the most recent spade of games. Right now, he is not just not an average starter in the league, he is not a capable backup. What you propose is just not feasible if he does not rebound in some form, unless we are willing to risk next season as well.

If he continues this pace, he would be costing games even if we would give him 20 games next year. And we would have to somehow find the space for Husso or another legit starter.

hes not backup material during this stretch. that doesnt mean he wont be next year. hes 28 years old and while his first 2 months in the league were an aberration, hes had about 2.5 seasons worth of average nhl goalie play until january this year. hes only 28. he can easily be fine next year. goalies have disater seasons only to be fine the next year all the time. theres no reason to panic. even if he does end up sucking next year, itd be better to waive him and seee if he could work things out in minors and eat big cap hit for another year rather than pushing panic button and buying him out putting us with 10 year cap hit. Cuz if he rebounds at all to be playable in the nhl, then that buyout was just a disasterous misstep. gms arent gonna panic year 1 into a 6 year contract. it was a bad contract from get go, but no use in worsening it buy panicking and hitting buyout.

and if he costs us games next season? so what. good teams can salvage a few wins with terrible goalies. yeah its hard with games like that against edmonton but hes not that terrible every game. we got some wins with him in february. 50% of the teams make the playoffs so unless you are a border team that really doesnt deserve to make the playoffs, you have some margin for error and we can always trade for another goalie midseason. There is no reason to not at least see if fresh offseason gives him more life next year. Buying a guy out after year 1 in a 6 year deal would be unprecedented for almost any gm. Even new jersey decided to tough it out and deal with cory schneiders cap hit rather than buying him out and handicapping themselves for longer time.

 

[EastVillageBlues]

hes not backup material during this stretch. that doesnt mean he wont be next year. hes 28 years old and while his first 2 months in the league were an aberration, hes had about 2.5 seasons worth of average nhl goalie play until january this year. hes only 28. he can easily be fine next year. goalies have disater seasons only to be fine the next year all the time. theres no reason to panic. even if he does end up sucking next year, itd be better to waive him and seee if he could work things out in minors and eat big cap hit for another year rather than pushing panic button and buying him out putting us with 10 year cap hit. Cuz if he rebounds at all to be playable in the nhl, then that buyout was just a disasterous misstep. gms arent gonna panic year 1 into a 6 year contract. it was a bad contract from get go, but no use in worsening it buy panicking and hitting buyout.

and if he costs us games next season? so what. good teams can salvage a few wins with terrible goalies. yeah its hard with games like that against edmonton but hes not that terrible every game. we got some wins with him in february. 50% of the teams make the playoffs so unless you are a border team that really doesnt deserve to make the playoffs, you have some margin for error and we can always trade for another goalie midseason. There is no reason to not at least see if fresh offseason gives him more life next year. Buying a guy out after year 1 in a 6 year deal would be unprecedented for almost any gm. Even new jersey decided to tough it out and deal with cory schneiders cap hit rather than buying him out and handicapping themselves for longer time.

While a buyout would be very painful, it's not nearly as intractable as you described. Here is what the numbers would be:

For most of the years when our window is open, it would be 4-5M savings each year. In the out years, when we would likely be rebuilding, it is a deficit of 2M, but in those years the cap would likely be much higher anyways.

 

[bleedblue1223]

While a buyout would be very painful, it's not nearly as intractable as you described. Here is what the numbers would be:

For most of the years when our window is open, it would be 4-5M savings each year. In the out years, when we would likely be rebuilding, it is a deficit of 2M, but in those years the cap would likely be much higher anyways.

The big issue with a buyout is, how willing is our ownership to essentially exceed the cap in real dollars, especially with revenues down from the pandemic. It's one thing that they've always been willing to spend to the cap, it's another to spend more real dollars than the cap because of buyouts.

 

[Brian39]

The cap numbers of a buyout are favorable because the structure of his contract is buyout-friendly. A $633k cap hit in 2023/24 and 2024/25 would offer maximum cap relief in the two biggest cap-crunch years we have and then 2025/26 would see a cap hit at $1.6M. By the time the cap hit balloons up to $3.6M and then years of $2.13M on a buyout, the cap will make a significant jump. The cap consequences of a buyout absolutely offer the Blues a more appealing cap consequence than trading him with $2M+ retained. Adding 5 years of a $2.13M hit after the cap has ballooned up near $100M is absolutely worth the major cap savings for the next 4 years. But the real-world finances make a buyout very unlikely this summer.

I don't think a buyout this summer is remotely on the table for Binner. I can't recall any NHL team buying out a player just 1 year into a 5+ year deal and Army has never bought a player out during his tenure as a GM. None of us know ownership's willingness to spend money on a buyout, but I have a pretty hard time believing that they are willing to pay Binner $21.3M to get him off the roster and still spend to the cap every year. Committing the organization to a $2.13M expense every July for a decade is a pretty large financial liability and would very much be a "last option on the table" kind of move.

I think Army will try (and fail) to move him this summer and hope for a bounce-back next year. We can swallow his cap hit next season and still field a damn good team around it (including paying Husso or another goalie that you pencil in as the starter). If he bounces back, then you figure out your net from there. If he doesn't, then next summer is the year you consider eating the buyout. A buyout next summer still gets you major cap relief from 2023-2026, the same cap hits after that and it shaves a year of the total years you are paying him.

We signed him to a 6 year deal with full trade protection for 3 years and robust trade protection beyond that. Teams don't cut bait on that type of financial commitment based on a few months. In the eyes of the organization, he was worth the money at the time he signed it. He put up a .912 after signing the deal last year, which is right in line with the goalie the team signed. He then put up a .911 before the New Year to start this season. Through 2021, he was the goalie that the organization wanted to give $6M a year to. The wheels have completely fallen off since, but we are talking about a span of months. Stable organizations don't spend $21M to get a guy off their roster based on a few months.

If Army can get out of the contract without forcing a lot of pain, I'm sure he'll take the opportunity. If not, then you hope Binner finds his game this offseason, you pencil him in for 25+ starts next year and then you make the decision at that point.

 

[TruBlu]

I'm a huge DA fan, but this signing was even worse than the Lehtera signing. At least we had a much larger sample size when that contract was handed out. Binny was in the right place at the right time. He came out of obscurity and played very well having never been scrutinized in game prep videos. He's done nothing but regress since that initial year. I hope this lesson is only learned once. Just because a guy was in net for a cup win doesn't mean it was because he was in net.

 

[TheDizee]

Before I go to bed tonight and say my prayers, will be asking God to give Coach Berube the wisdom, confidence and guts to start Chuckie Sideburns in G5.

 

[Moose and Squirrel]

I'm confused.. is Binnington still unmovable and Husso the future?

 

[Xerloris]

I'm a huge DA fan, but this signing was even worse than the Lehtera signing. At least we had a much larger sample size when that contract was handed out. Binny was in the right place at the right time. He came out of obscurity and played very well having never been scrutinized in game prep videos. He's done nothing but regress since that initial year. I hope this lesson is only learned once. Just because a guy was in net for a cup win doesn't mean it was because he was in net.

Talk about shit that didn't age well.

 

[TruBlu]

Talk about shit that didn't age well.

Weren't you just complaining not even two pages ago about not looking at small sample sizes in regards to Husso? If you want to take a small group of games that Binnington played and completely disregard the last few seasons where he has consistently put up worse and worse numbers, that's on you. I still stand by my words. Take an objective look at your own before you criticize others...

 

[Xerloris]

Weren't you just complaining not even two pages ago about not looking at small sample sizes in regards to Husso? If you want to take a small group of games that Binnington played and completely disregard the last few seasons where he has consistently put up worse and worse numbers, that's on you. I still stand by my words. Take an objective look at your own before you criticize others...

I really doubt that was me. I've been arguing that Husso only ever played one crazy good month and the rest has been kind of trashy and that's for his whole career. He's been on a downward spiral since the all star break. Binnington has always in his career been a 910-915 sv% goalie so acting like his "worse and worse" numbers yearly just shows that you don't know much about his career. He's been perfectly average for who he is. He's paid for what he can do in the playoffs. Husso should be reminding you all right now what it's always been like for us, great regular season goalie that flops in the playoffs.

 

[TruBlu]

I really doubt that was me. I've been arguing that Husso only ever played one crazy good month and the rest has been kind of trashy and that's for his whole career. He's been on a downward spiral since the all star break. Binnington has always in his career been a 910-915 sv% goalie so acting like his "worse and worse" numbers yearly just shows that you don't know much about his career. He's been perfectly average for who he is. He's paid for what he can do in the playoffs. Husso should be reminding you all right now what it's always been like for us, great regular season goalie that flops in the playoffs.

That's funny...All I had to go to was go to a little known site called NHL.com and look at this year's stats and it shows him at .901 and over 3 gaa for the season. weird. It has to be wrong though, because he's a career .910 to .915 goalie. It also shows his numbers have dropped every year...but what do I know.

 

[Xerloris]

That's funny...All I had to go to was go to a little known site called NHL.com and look at this year's stats and it shows him at .901 and over 3 gaa for the season. weird. It has to be wrong though, because he's a career .910 to .915 goalie. It also shows his numbers have dropped every year...but what do I know.

Clearly not much of anything. I'm not talking NHL career but his entire career. He hovers around 910-915 but sure go ahead and nitpick this current year where he had covid and literally was not the same after getting it. I'm absolutely positive that covid had nothing to do at all with this poor play and clear as day fatigue. Maybe nhl.com can help you find a f***ing clue so you stop making a fool of yourself.

 

[TruBlu]

Clearly not much of anything. I'm not talking NHL career but his entire career. He hovers around 910-915 but sure go ahead and nitpick this current year where he had covid and literally was not the same after getting it. I'm absolutely positive that covid had nothing to do at all with this poor play and clear as day fatigue. Maybe nhl.com can help you find a f***ing clue so you stop making a fool of yourself.

reckless optimism indeed...

 

[TheDizee]

resign Chuckie army and make him 1B goalie.

He has shown that you can give him 30-35 starts a year and not miss a beat.

 

[Xerloris]

View attachment 553682

resign Chuckie army and make him 1B goalie.

He has shown that you can give him 30-35 starts a year and not miss a beat.

You don't just hand someone the 1b role. His career has proven he can't stay in the NHL and no matter how good he is in the AHL it's not the same as NHL skill. He would be a perfectly fine backup IMO but trying to anoint him as 1B before he earns it both with his play and Poor starter play would be akin to Armstrong signing Allen to his 4m+ contract before he ever played as a starter.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

View attachment 553682

resign Chuckie army and make him 1B goalie.

He has shown that you can give him 30-35 starts a year and not miss a beat.

Um no. He has absolutely not showed that.. michael hutchinson another career minor leaguer had great numbers in 8 starts with. toronto last year. This year he was back to sucking. Lindgren has proven nothing.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

I'll always find people gushing over a goalie playing well for 4 starts against 3 bottom of the league offensive teams hilarious. Did we really not learn anything from Hutch, Hammond. Or a large amount of other goalies?

 

[TheDizee]

I'll always find people gushing over a goalie playing well for 4 starts against 3 bottom of the league offensive teams hilarious. Did we really not learn anything from Hutch, Hammond. Or a large amount of other goalies?

chuckie is the real deal