Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[2CHAINZ]

Kind of divisive calling people who have a different opinion than yours trolls. Everybody wants the team to succeed, when they see the team do something they think is counter to that goal, the criticize it, when they see something they feel is positive, they applaud it.

Very few posters if any criticize Dorion to try and provoke others, they just don't like what he's done. You on the other hand seem to be aiming this post as an attack at posters that disagreed with your takes. Who is being the troll in that scenario?

MickleBot for Prez

 

[Cosmix]

Sure, it's 1 trade.
After getting Joseph for Paul, after expanding the front office and continuing to search for more execs, after securing a site for the downtown arena, after working on shedding the dead weight contracts the fanbase wanted gone (White - check, Murray and Zaitsev - coming up), after locking up significant RFAs last summer and continuing that work this summer with the next crop.

It's ok to admit you guys were wrong about something. He's not a great GM but he wasn't as bad as everyone said and that's been the point this whole time.

The front office, if you mean AGMs, has not been expanded. Two AGMs have left and we have two new ones. And one of those AGMs was and remains Chief Scout. So one new manager.

Getting Joseph & a draft pick for Paul is not necessarily a win. The playoffs suggest otherwise but it is too early to say.

Buying out White was an easy decision to make.

Trading for Debrincat improves the roster and fills a key top 6 forward position which is a plus but comes with some risk if Debrincat does not sign an extension.

I agree that Dorion is not a great GM. I hope he is replaced with a better one.

 

[Micklebot]

The stat might have been referring to the time period before the player in question reaches free agency (UFA). It wasn't clear the way it was worded (imho).

Sure, that's what it was intending, but that isn't a fair comparison.

Lets say using pick 7OA gives you direct value for 7 years. You want to make a direct comparison, well it's the value you get out of DeBrincat for the same 7 years. If he's leaving as a UFA, you can bet we recoup some assets by moving him, and those need to be considered. We trade what came to be 4 OA for Duchene, and that really hurt when he left, but we didn't just get a season and a half of Duchene, we also got 19 OA and whatever value that eventually brings.

I mean, there's a potential scenario where the return we get from DeBrincat exceeds what we gave up to get him, do we still see the trade as bad if 7OA exceeds the value we get out of 2 years of DeBrincat?

 

[Big Muddy]

I think it's possible to have a foot in both camps here. Yes, Dorion made a great trade that should set us up to be competitive for the near future. But, like... we weren't competitive under his reign so far, and a few unforced errors played into that.

Life's not binary. It doesn't have to be one or the other. He was a GM who, coming into the draft, had a bad track record. He's now pulled off a heist and deserves some credit for it. This move might shape the future, but it sure doesn't erase what he's done so far.

And on that note, I have to wonder why a tweet commending the Melnyks is being posted in this thread. Feels a little off-topic for the Dorion thread.

Its so odd how the world has become so binary. Your either a hater or a lover. There is no in between. Its actually pretty sad that there's no nuance.

As the expression goes, the devil is in the details and things are often not so simple that it can be reduced to a "for" or "against". I feel sorry for people who think that way (its so simple and inaccurate), although unfortunately there is a great deal of that these days.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

The Dorion haters admitted it was a great job done by Pierre and a great step in the right direction, would be nice to see the Dorion Defenders admit when he does something bad though.

People are complimentary when he makes a good move and critical when he makes a bad move.

Weird.

it's almost like people are a fan of the team first and want good for the team first.

 

[2CHAINZ]

People are complimentary when he makes a good move and critical when he makes a bad move.

Weird.

it's almost like people are a fan of the team first and want good for the team first.

Yes the difference is there is a certain group that when he makes a bad move find ways to spin it and never put the blame on Pierre and the posters who call a spade a spade when he does something brutal are "trolls" and "haters".

 

[Sweatred]

People are complimentary when he makes a good move and critical when he makes a bad move.

Weird.

it's almost like people are a fan of the team first and want good for the team first.

Not true - there were 4000 critical Dorion’s an idiot posts off the EK. trade … it was an excellent trade and everyone called for his head. same goes for most deals he makes … most recently was the Hamonic one. Lots of negative noise that calms down once he plays a game.

We have threads devoted for those to proclaim they are smarter then him…



Look at yesterday …

 

[Bileur]

Yes the difference is there is a certain group that when he makes a bad move find ways to spin it and never put the blame on Pierre and the posters who call a spade a spade when he does something brutal are "trolls" and "haters".

The DeBrincat move was definitely exciting and I very much like that the main assets are known quantities, he had an idea of what would be available at 7 and chose to pull the trigger. I’d definitely file this one in the « good trade » side of the ledger.

Heck I don’t see anyone in this draft becoming a repeat 40 goal scorer. DeBrincat is a huge get. Hopefully they can extend him.

 

[BankStreetParade]

His track record shows he was in the Bennington/McCrimmon class (bottom). Everything has been fairly good since the Brady signing. People grow into their jobs sometimes and maybe he has improved but it doesn’t erase the horrible move after horrible move he made.

Or maybe he was handcuffed by a terrible boss who was clearly meddling in every day affairs? Melnyk dies and all of sudden everything is turning up roses? You guys honestly think it was a coincidence this whole time? He did what his boss asked him to do knowing he would have been fired and replaced with the next yes man if he didn't.

The bolded bits have nothing to do with Dorion. I'll give credit to Anna & Olivia and/or the 3 member board for that. The biggest difference makers will come from the very top of the organization (above Dorion) which is more typical than surprising, and a bunch of things you mentioned (like signing RFAs) aren't big accomplishments.

As for the Debrincat trade, using an over-simplistic summary, call it a good trade that will be excellent if he resigns.

The Balcers and Hamonic are irrelevant red herrings of course other than the fact that Vancouver didn't have any offers for Hamonic and we overpaid. He's a decent enough stop gap though given the state of our blueline at the time.

You don't think Dorion had anything to do with firing McGuire (a Melnyk hire) and promoting Mann? You don't think he was involved in the selection process for Bowness?

The bolded part - I have no idea what you're talking about. I didn't mention either guy by name or even by alluding to them so I don't know why that factors in to your response to me.

 

[Big Muddy]

Sure, that's what it was intending, but that isn't a fair comparison.

Lets say using pick 7OA gives you direct value for 7 years. You want to make a direct comparison, well it's the value you get out of DeBrincat for the same 7 years. If he's leaving as a UFA, you can bet we recoup some assets by moving him, and those need to be considered. We trade what came to be 4 OA for Duchene, and that really hurt when he left, but we didn't just get a season and a half of Duchene, we also got 19 OA and whatever value that eventually brings.

I mean, there's a potential scenario where the return we get from DeBrincat exceeds what we gave up to get him, do we still see the trade as bad if 7OA exceeds the value we get out of 2 years of DeBrincat?

OK. I wasn't sure how you (or anybody) was interpreting what was written (not what you wrote, but what you responded to) as it was a little unclear/murky.

Just to dig in to this a little more, if we do have to trade Debrincat, I think the return may depend a lot on when we make the trade. If the trade is made at the deadline of the 2nd year (the QO year), if its picks we get back as the main piece, those will be later picks from teams that are already playoff bound (or very close to making the playoffs).

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Or maybe he was handcuffed by a terrible boss who was clearly meddling in every day affairs? Melnyk dies and all of sudden everything is turning up roses? You guys honestly think it was a coincidence this whole time? He did what his boss asked him to do knowing he would have been fired and replaced with the next yes man if he didn't.

It's possible that'll turn out to be the case, and if it does I'll gladly eat my share of crow here. But we're not looking at possibilities, we're looking at track record. And the track record is largely not good. He can absolutely prove the narrative you're suggesting by keeping it up, but I'm not ready to call that one yet.

 

[Sweatred]

OK. I wasn't sure how you (or anybody) was interpreting what was written (not what you wrote, but what you responded to) as it was a little unclear/murky.

Just to dig in to this a little more, if we do have to trade Debrincat, I think the return may depend a lot on when we make the trade. If the trade is made at the deadline of the 2nd year (the QO year), if its picks we get back as the main piece, those will be later picks from teams that are already playoff bound (or very close to making the playoffs).

Or prospects they drafted over the past few years …

 

[BankStreetParade]

Yes the difference is there is a certain group that when he makes a bad move find ways to spin it and never put the blame on Pierre and the posters who call a spade a spade when he does something brutal are "trolls" and "haters".

Funny how you say the group you dislike "spin" everything but the people you align with are just calling "a spade a spade". I bet that mentality has nothing to do with the reason things are so polarized here. Stick to the jokes and memes, homie.

It's possible that'll turn out to be the case, and if it does I'll gladly eat my share of crow here. But we're not looking at possibilities, we're looking at track record. And the track record is largely not good. He can absolutely prove the narrative you're suggesting by keeping it up, but I'm not ready to call that one yet.

You can't separate the two, so what does your point even matter? His boss meddled in everything.

 

[2CHAINZ]

The DeBrincat move was definitely exciting and I very much like that the main assets are known quantities, he had an idea of what would be available at 7 and chose to pull the trigger. I’d definitely file this one in the « good trade » side of the ledger.

Heck I don’t see anyone in this draft becoming a repeat 40 goal scorer. DeBrincat is a huge get. Hopefully they can extend him.

It is a great move at such a pivotal time, we could end up losing him for less than we paid obv, but the sens don't need another prospect and this draft was meh. The fact we didn't give up next years first in this deal is a W. This trade has injected so much life into the fanbase as well it is very well done at the perfect time. I am no Dorion lover but like I said I got dunked on. I thought Pierre was going to f*** everything up and he went Jordan on me. Does it fix all his blunders ? No but if the team is winning no one gives a rat's ass about past blunders.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

You can't separate the two, so what does your point even matter? His boss meddled in everything.

Sure, that was true. But now we have a clear line of demarcation post-Eugene and he's starting off this side of the ledger on the positive. We'll see if he can keep it up.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The DeBrincat move was definitely exciting and I very much like that the main assets are known quantities, he had an idea of what would be available at 7 and chose to pull the trigger. I’d definitely file this one in the « good trade » side of the ledger.

Heck I don’t see anyone in this draft becoming a repeat 40 goal scorer. DeBrincat is a huge get. Hopefully they can extend him.

Nice win for Dorion imo; It will be a huge win if we can extend him. I had my share of doubts we could get him. We jumped in the deep end with the big fish. Lets hope he just loves playing here. Still we have to expect a resign to be expensive. Forsberg just went 8.5x8.

 

[Big Muddy]

Or maybe he was handcuffed by a terrible boss who was clearly meddling in every day affairs? Melnyk dies and all of sudden everything is turning up roses? You guys honestly think it was a coincidence this whole time? He did what his boss asked him to do knowing he would have been fired and replaced with the next yes man if he didn't.

1. You don't think Dorion had anything to do with firing McGuire (a Melnyk hire) and promoting Mann? You don't think he was involved in the selection process for Bowness?

2. The bolded part - I have no idea what you're talking about. I didn't mention either guy by name or even by alluding to them so I don't know why that factors in to your response to me.

1. We don't know who made those decisions. I guess we could guess and I'd guess that Dorion would have some input on the Bowness hiring. We don't really know about the inner workings of the Board now and who does what, so I guess I'm not particularly prone to speculating.

Also, I was also pretty specific about what my comments were directed at, whereas you are taking a much broader definition on what I was referring to with your post.

2. It was not a response to you. It was "aimed" elsewhere. Try to not get your face in a knot about this. I just added that idea or tagged your post for convenience (or other reasons).

And yes, I think Melnyk was a factor in how things went in Senator land. I have publicly stated this many times, so not sure why you felt compelled to ask this question.

This goes back to my point (#904) about the inability to see nuance these days. In general, it's likely that the person's you see as being on the opposite side likely grasp and realize many things they are otherwise not given much credit for seeing & realizing.

 

[swiftwin]

The Dorion haters admitted it was a great job done by Pierre and a great step in the right direction, would be nice to see the Dorion Defenders admit when he does something bad though.

The thing is most of his good moves are big moves, and most of his "bad" moves are minor.

 

[Micklebot]

Nice win for Dorion imo; It will be a huge win if we can extend him. I had my share of doubts we could get him. We jumped in the deep end with the big fish. Lets hope he just loves playing here. Still we have to expect a resign to be expensive. Forsberg just went 8.5x8.

It's pretty wild, I assumed we couldn't get him because the ask would be insane. His cap hit is very friendly, granted only for one year and the next one likely won't be, and the acquisition cost was pretty modest for the quality of player.

To me, this is pretty similar to Toronto acquiring Kessel, DeBrincat is obviously further along than Kessel was but both are/were young wingers that could be a part of the core long term. Kessel cost the leafs far more than what we gave up. We finally hit the perfect year to be trying to add to the team, it's a buyers market and we did really well so far.

 

[2CHAINZ]

The thing is most of his good moves are big moves, and most of his "bad" moves are minor.

I disagree with you. His biggest win was very lucky imo, the Karlsson trade. I feel we are very lucky to have had that one work out the way it did but you gotta get lucky sometimes. Other than that where are his big wins ?

 

[2CHAINZ]

Funny how you say the group you dislike "spin" everything but the people you align with are just calling "a spade a spade". I bet that mentality has nothing to do with the reason things are so polarized here. Stick to the jokes and memes, homie.


You can't separate the two, so what does your point even matter? His boss meddled in everything.

I don't dislike anyone we are all here cause we want the team to win. I also don't align with anyone I speak for myself and myself only I should have worded my post that way originally. Sorry I will stick to jokes and memes, my apologies I will leave the hockey talk to you and Sweat. I will just watch you guys and hope to be half as knowledgeable as you guys in the future.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I don't dislike anyone we are all here cause we want the team to win. I also don't align with anyone I speak for myself and myself only I should have worded my post that way originally. Sorry I will stick to jokes and memes, my apologies I will leave the hockey talk to you and Sweat. I will just watch you guys and hope to be half as knowledgeable as you guys in the future.

dare to dream... I feel absolutely privileged to get such a broad education in perspectives.

 

[Big Muddy]

Or prospects they drafted over the past few years …

It could be prospects as well. But, just like we did with Pinto, Grieg, etc., teams are often loathe to give those up.

And there was that "operative" word "if" inserted deliberately before the word "picks".

Copied from my # 910 post: "if its picks we get back as the main piece, ......."

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Kind of divisive calling people who have a different opinion than yours trolls. Everybody wants the team to succeed, when they see the team do something they think is counter to that goal, the criticize it, when they see something they feel is positive, they applaud it.

Very few posters if any criticize Dorion to try and provoke others, they just don't like what he's done. You on the other hand seem to be aiming this post as an attack at posters that disagreed with your takes. Who is being the troll in that scenario?

Give me a break. The usual Sens Twitter suspects that were squawking doom and gloom before the trade. Why are people so sensitive? Just like PD, they want to be public figures by having their public platform on social media.

 

[Samsquanch]

Okay this is actually kind of badass.

I've never seen them do anything other show up to a game before. But this is like interesting to see that they're obviously involved in the running if the team to some capacity.

Like clearly they're seeing on Twitter how invigorated the fan base is right now after the DeBrincat trade. And that has to be exciting as an owner.