Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I dunno man, I feel like they'll be a first round exit team at best. Not enough elite guys that are young enough, and too many players approaching the wrong side of 30. Toffoli, Lindholm, Hanifin, Tanev and Zadarov all need new contracts and aren't worth what they'll ask for their last payday.

If CGY management still wants to be competitive and not do a rebuild and Cat would be okay with there, I would've loved it if we got some of their guys that could be signed to reasonable deals (Toffoli comes to mind).

Well, I'm meaning that I expect them to re-tool and make a couple relatively big moves. I'm cautiously optimistic about the new regime there. I think the advantage they have is that they don't have boat anchors for the players that would be getting moved. Hanifin, Toffoli, Lindholm, Tanev, Anderson, etc. all bring a lot still and should be desirable to the league. All these guys expiring can still bring it relative to their pay, so I think they're well positioned to move some pieces and have the assets to build a competitive team. They may need to take futures and make other moves, but it sounds like they're committed. Could be wrong of course and there could still be some lean years, but I think they have an advantage that a team like say Vancouver doesn't because they're thin on assets.

And being a 1st round type exit team or winning a round and that's is may not be the best conclusion, but the other option is throwing away a half a decade at minimum to hopefully be competitive one day, and statistically, still unlikely to win it all ever, so I can understand the hesitancy for organizations to blow it up. These last 5 years in Ottawa were the worst since I started following in 96.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Well, I'm meaning that I expect them to re-tool and make a couple relatively big moves. I'm cautiously optimistic about the new regime there. I think the advantage they have is that they don't have boat anchors for the players that would be getting moved. Hanifin, Toffoli, Lindholm, Tanev, Anderson, etc. all bring a lot still and should be desirable to the league. All these guys expiring can still bring it relative to their pay, so I think they're well positioned to move some pieces and have the assets to build a competitive team. They may need to take futures and make other moves, but it sounds like they're committed. Could be wrong of course and there could still be some lean years, but I think they have an advantage that a team like say Vancouver doesn't because they're thin on assets.

And being a 1st round type exit team or winning a round and that's is may not be the best conclusion, but the other option is throwing away a half a decade at minimum to hopefully be competitive one day, and statistically, still unlikely to win it all ever, so I can understand the hesitancy for organizations to blow it up. These last 5 years in Ottawa were the worst since I started following in 96.

I can’t understand people who view a from the ground rebuild as the worst years. We got to watch all of our young stars develop into stars right before our eyes. It’s like we got to sit front row and watch our young squad mature into a threat. That to me is a special time in sports. I mean, if you wanted to, and expected to see wins, I guess I could see how you would be frustrated for years on end.

The biggest problem with Calgary is that they should have torn it all down when the traded Matthew. All this praise for a guy who let a prime asset go for nothing. PD gets scorn for the Stone trade, and guys in here are trying to compare that to Matthew. Here’s an idea, how about we compare EK to Matthew, and Stone to Gaudreau.

Looks a hell of a lot better for the Sens when we play fair.

Calgary should have traded Gaudreau, and they should have taken the best deal for Matthew, which may have been what they got, but then traded Hub and Weegar for the best deals they could have gotten.

Again, PD would have been roasted for not having a pulse on what guys wanted to stay and what guys weren’t extending, we’re seeing it now with DBC, and yet in Calgary it’s an acceptable surprise that the next 3-4 top players are hinting that they want out?

Now Conroy is talking getting younger, while being hamstrung by older players on massive contracts that can’t be traded. Can’t rebuild, can’t compete for a cup….

What a massive shit show. Ownership screwed up big time if the rumours are true and they refused a move to rebuild, but those contracts and letting G go for nothing are a serious blow to the flames future. They have fighting for mediocrity written all over them for the next while, which is deadly for a Canadian team looking to add talent.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I can’t understand people who view a from the ground rebuild as the worst years. We got to watch all of our young stars develop into stars right before our eyes. It’s like we got to sit front row and watch our young squad mature into a threat. That to me is a special time in sports. I mean, if you wanted to, and expected to see wins, I guess I could see how you would be frustrated for years on end.

The biggest problem with Calgary is that they should have torn it all down when the traded Matthew. All this praise for a guy who let a prime asset go for nothing. PD gets scorn for the Stone trade, and guys in here are trying to compare that to Matthew. Here’s an idea, how about we compare EK to Matthew, and Stone to Gaudreau.

Looks a hell of a lot better for the Sens when we play fair.

Calgary should have traded Gaudreau, and they should have taken the best deal for Matthew, which may have been what they got, but then traded Hub and Weegar for the best deals they could have gotten.

Again, PD would have been roasted for not having a pulse on what guys wanted to stay and what guys weren’t extending, we’re seeing it now with DBC, and yet in Calgary it’s an acceptable surprise that the next 3-4 top players are hinting that they want out?

Now Conroy is talking getting younger, while being hamstrung by older players on massive contracts that can’t be traded. Can’t rebuild, can’t compete for a cup….

What a massive shit show. Ownership screwed up big time if the rumours are true and they refused a move to rebuild, but those contracts and letting G go for nothing are a serious blow to the flames future. They have fighting for mediocrity written all over them for the next while, which is deadly for a Canadian team looking to add talent.

It sucks. I'm sorry but the hockey itself is garbage. Draft is fun, trades are fun, some of the prospect development is fun, but I can do without the hockey itself. Just doesn't hold my attention when there's no stakes to it and the team isn't competitive. And those first 2 or 3 years was basically Chucky, Chabot who we already knew were players and a squad of filler. All the power to you if you actually enjoyed the hockey but obviously the amount of people that tune out during the rebuild period tells you something.

And Brad Treliving just got fired, in large part for what you describe, so tell me again about the Dorion roasting comparison since he is still employed. Now, he's got a chance to learn in Toronto from his choices in Calgary, or not, but that initial trade he made was a massive home run, 3 or 4 times the value we got for an extended Stone, and that's not arguable, it's just the choice of the big extensions that can be questioned. That said, he did get those acquisitions to sign, wise or not, which is another situation Dorion is facing now with DeBrincat refusing.

I'm willing to wait and see what happens in Calgary. Could be wrong about their competitiveness, but he's not hamstrung because their players are all still good and worth their contracts for the most part. This isn't washed up veterans getting moved. He has 2 big ones he probably can't move as a positive in Hubs and Kadri, maybe Markstrom & Coleman, but that's it, and they all still belong in an important spot on an NHL team, so we aren't talking guys totally washed like say Ryan or Z. Smith was for us. Toffoli, Tanev, Backlund, Lindholm, Andersson, Mangiapane, Hanifin, Zadorov & Weegar are all guys with positive value if they move them. I know it's trendy these days to slam them and make it seem like an impossible situation with the only outcome possible being to throw away so many years to a rebuild, but I think people are a little too jumpy with the term in general and how hard it is on franchises and their fan bases. It basically signals to their entire casual base, see you in 5+ years. It's officially not the hot ticket in Calgary. It doesn't have to be the only route. Hell, it doesn't even seem to lead to anything much half the time. Odds are against your team ever winning it all anyways and if we're being realistic, we're unlikely to see a cup in Ottawa from this rebuild either.

 

[Ice-Tray]

It sucks. I'm sorry but the hockey itself is garbage. Draft is fun, trades are fun, some of the prospect development is fun, but I can do without the hockey itself. Just doesn't hold my attention when there's no stakes to it and many nights are lopsided losses. And those first 2 or 3 years was basically Chucky, Chabot who we already knew were players and a squad of filler. All the power to you if you actually enjoyed the hockey but obviously the amount of people that tune out during the rebuild period tells you something.

And Brad Treliving just got fired, in large part for what you describe, so tell me again about the Dorion roasting comparison since he is still employed. Now, he's got a chance to learn in Toronto from his choices in Calgary, or not, but that initial trade he made was a massive home run, 3 or 4 times the value we got for an extended Stone, and that's inarguable, it's just the choice of the big extensions that can be questioned. That said, he did get those acquisitions to sign, wise or not, which is another situation Dorion is facing now with DeBrincat refusing.

I'm willing to wait and see what happens in Calgary. Could be wrong about their competitiveness, but he's not hamstrung because their players are all still good and worth their contracts for the most part. This isn't washed up veterans getting moved. He has 2 big ones he probably can't move as a positive in Hubs and Kadri, maybe Markstrom & Coleman, but that's it, and they all still belong in an important spot on an NHL team, so we aren't talking guys totally washed like say Ryan or Z. Smith was for us. Toffoli, Tanev, Backlund, Lindholm, Andersson, Mangiapane, Hanifin, Zadorov & Weegar are all guys with positive value if they move them. I know it's trendy these days to slam them and make it seem like an impossible situation with the only outcome possible being to throw away so many years to a rebuild, but I think people are a little too jumpy with the term in general and how hard it is on franchises and their fan bases. It basically signals to their entire casual base, see you in 5+ years. It's officially not the hot ticket in Calgary. It doesn't have to be the only route. Hell, it doesn't even seem to lead to anything much half the time. Odds are against your team ever winning it all anyways and if we're being realistic, we're unlikely to see a cup in Ottawa from this rebuild either.

Well that makes sense. A rebuild isn’t for everyone, but it is the way to go if you want to have a sustained run at being a top team.

If bandwagon fans can’t stomach the stretch, so be it, they will all be back once the team is good again, and the roster is cheap during the rebuild years anyways. The other thing is that there are still thousands of fans who love the live event, and have been excited to watch the kids develop, it’s just not for everyone.

Thankfully the management team and coaching staff had the longevity to see their vision and process through instead of ownership bending to the will of the impatient mob, they would have had us draft like dogshit and then rush the process. We all know they’ll be back claiming never having left when the winning starts anyways so let them enjoy their timeout where they can enjoy themselves!

As for Calgary, Treivling left, he wasn’t fired because of how he handled MT and Gaudreau. Apparently it was more to do with culture and Sutter.

Also, the point was more that imagine the bitter responses if we lost Stone for nothing? Don’t like the last minute deal when we tried to keep him? Fine, and fair, but not trading him at all is soooooooo much worse. It’s Tavares all over again, pretty much the worst asset management sin out there lol. Some guys in here want to bring him in to replace PD…. Laughable in my opinion.

In the end the “see you in 5+ years” is exactly why no one in hockey management cares at all about fickle fan opinions, many of us are just leaves in the wind who will settle back and open our wallets once the rebuild is over. It also illustrates a source of the divisiveness in here as there are lots of fans who are enjoying the hardships of living through the process, a shared journey of growth, while others spit venom from the ‘sidelines’ bitter that they can’t watch a winner with their beer for a few years.

Different strokes for different folks. Either way, these two groups are starting to converge whether we like it or not because the winning has started.

 

[Golden_Jet]

It sucks. I'm sorry but the hockey itself is garbage. Draft is fun, trades are fun, some of the prospect development is fun, but I can do without the hockey itself. Just doesn't hold my attention when there's no stakes to it and the team isn't competitive. And those first 2 or 3 years was basically Chucky, Chabot who we already knew were players and a squad of filler. All the power to you if you actually enjoyed the hockey but obviously the amount of people that tune out during the rebuild period tells you something.

And Brad Treliving just got fired, in large part for what you describe, so tell me again about the Dorion roasting comparison since he is still employed. Now, he's got a chance to learn in Toronto from his choices in Calgary, or not, but that initial trade he made was a massive home run, 3 or 4 times the value we got for an extended Stone, and that's not arguable, it's just the choice of the big extensions that can be questioned. That said, he did get those acquisitions to sign, wise or not, which is another situation Dorion is facing now with DeBrincat refusing.

I'm willing to wait and see what happens in Calgary. Could be wrong about their competitiveness, but he's not hamstrung because their players are all still good and worth their contracts for the most part. This isn't washed up veterans getting moved. He has 2 big ones he probably can't move as a positive in Hubs and Kadri, maybe Markstrom & Coleman, but that's it, and they all still belong in an important spot on an NHL team, so we aren't talking guys totally washed like say Ryan or Z. Smith was for us. Toffoli, Tanev, Backlund, Lindholm, Andersson, Mangiapane, Hanifin, Zadorov & Weegar are all guys with positive value if they move them. I know it's trendy these days to slam them and make it seem like an impossible situation with the only outcome possible being to throw away so many years to a rebuild, but I think people are a little too jumpy with the term in general and how hard it is on franchises and their fan bases. It basically signals to their entire casual base, see you in 5+ years. It's officially not the hot ticket in Calgary. It doesn't have to be the only route. Hell, it doesn't even seem to lead to anything much half the time. Odds are against your team ever winning it all anyways and if we're being realistic, we're unlikely to see a cup in Ottawa from this rebuild either.

You should switch teams every time a team goes into a rebuild then, might enjoy it more.

 

[Ice-Tray]

You should switch teams every time a team goes into a rebuild then, might enjoy it more.

He does enjoy basketball though, where many teams never rebuild but simply regroup a super trio each summer to try and beat the other five teams doing the same.

I suppose it sucks being a fan of the other 25 teams though….

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

its not about rebuilding, its about Dorion trying to win for 3 years and utterly failing.

 

[Beech]

deleted

 

[Golden_Jet]

its not about rebuilding, its about Dorion trying to win for 3 years and utterly failing.

Lol
Less than 3 years ago they drafted Stutzle and Sanderson.

 

[Beech]

hey @swiftwin if I could sit with Dorion and have him drink about 6 beers in reasonably fast fashion.. so that the truth serum part kicks in.. and I asked him about Eugen Melnyk. What would I get?

1) shocking stuff that will have me peeing in my pants
2) spewing of hatred towards Eugene
3) spewing of love. Like Eugene is a Father to him
4) middle ground..

and all of this in the context of the hockey team, interference, none interference.

I always though an evening out with Eugene at some bar in South beech, with 6 beers and Caribbean/Cuban music blaring, would be Nixon/Frost. By the time the evening was done, he would be speaking Ukrainian and I would understand.

Since the Eugene has passed.. Nixon/Frost has to be Dorion/Beech.

 

[Beech]

Lol
Less than 3 years ago they drafted Stutzle and Sanderson.

and Kleven, and Greig and Jarventie (sorry about the spelling) and Merlinian...

f*** what that draft has a chance to be!!!! 6 deep with an outside chance of being 7 or 8. EeeeeH, if it had come in 2015-2018..

2 dmen, 1 center, 2 wingers, 1 goalie... a whole line-up.. One draft.

 

[Puikiou]

Let's see how they all do without Sutter as the coach. He literally played Huberdeau out of position. Listen to the interviews of Calgarys players.... Players don't just forget how to play. You conveniently ommited Weegar who is a great player and was amazing in the second half once he got used to his surroundings. You also forgot the 1st round pick and Cole Schwimd. It was an amazing value deal for a player leaving. Looking forward to re visiting this post. In comparison Ottawa got Brannstrom and a 2nd for an extended Stone.

Even after years, reading this trade gets worse and worse everytime.

For how much of a size queen Ottawa management has been over the years, it's weird how often they've taken on tiny players in return for their high end talent.

- Bishop for Conacher
- Stone for Brännström
- Giving up a top 10 pick for 5'7" Debrincat while barely being a bubble team. With no insurance of a contract extension. Despite getting burned in a similar scenario with Duchene and having to trade Stone for peanuts when the roles were reversed.

 

[DueDiligence]

Lol
Less than 3 years ago they drafted Stutzle and Sanderson.

Well AZ never lets the facts get in the way of his point of view.

 

[swiftwin]

hey @swiftwin if I could sit with Dorion and have him drink about 6 beers in reasonably fast fashion.. so that the truth serum part kicks in.. and I asked him about Eugen Melnyk. What would I get?

1) shocking stuff that will have me peeing in my pants
2) spewing of hatred towards Eugene
3) spewing of love. Like Eugene is a Father to him
4) middle ground..

and all of this in the context of the hockey team, interference, none interference.

I always though an evening out with Eugene at some bar in South beech, with 6 beers and Caribbean/Cuban music blaring, would be Nixon/Frost. By the time the evening was done, he would be speaking Ukrainian and I would understand.

Since the Eugene has passed.. Nixon/Frost has to be Dorion/Beech.

Why are you asking me? How would I know?

That said, I would guess hatred or annoyance based on the stories we've all read about how Melnyk treats his subordinates. Not to mention, the lawsuit against him.

But your guess is as good as mine.

 

[armani]

and Kleven, and Greig and Jarventie (sorry about the spelling) and Merlinian...

f*** what that draft has a chance to be!!!! 6 deep with an outside chance of being 7 or 8. EeeeeH, if it had come in 2015-2018..

2 dmen, 1 center, 2 wingers, 1 goalie... a whole line-up.. One draft.

And you forgot Sokolov

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Lol
Less than 3 years ago they drafted Stutzle and Sanderson.

exactly, we got two 1st overall talents and 3 years later Dorion still struggles to make it into a winner.

not to mention he already had chabot, brady, batherson and he traded away so many picks.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Post Dorion Habs

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Well that makes sense. A rebuild isn’t for everyone, but it is the way to go if you want to have a sustained run at being a top team.

If bandwagon fans can’t stomach the stretch, so be it, they will all be back once the team is good again, and the roster is cheap during the rebuild years anyways. The other thing is that there are still thousands of fans who love the live event, and have been excited to watch the kids develop, it’s just not for everyone.

Thankfully the management team and coaching staff had the longevity to see their vision and process through instead of ownership bending to the will of the impatient mob, they would have had us draft like dogshit and then rush the process. We all know they’ll be back claiming never having left when the winning starts anyways so let them enjoy their timeout where they can enjoy themselves!

As for Calgary, Treivling left, he wasn’t fired because of how he handled MT and Gaudreau. Apparently it was more to do with culture and Sutter.

Also, the point was more that imagine the bitter responses if we lost Stone for nothing? Don’t like the last minute deal when we tried to keep him? Fine, and fair, but not trading him at all is soooooooo much worse. It’s Tavares all over again, pretty much the worst asset management sin out there lol. Some guys in here want to bring him in to replace PD…. Laughable in my opinion.

In the end the “see you in 5+ years” is exactly why no one in hockey management cares at all about fickle fan opinions, many of us are just leaves in the wind who will settle back and open our wallets once the rebuild is over. It also illustrates a source of the divisiveness in here as there are lots of fans who are enjoying the hardships of living through the process, a shared journey of growth, while others spit venom from the ‘sidelines’ bitter that they can’t watch a winner with their beer for a few years.

Different strokes for different folks. Either way, these two groups are starting to converge whether we like it or not because the winning has started.

You're bordering on areas I don't really care to get into if I'm honest. People can fan however they want and there's no right or wrong in how they choose to do it. I don't fault anyone for choosing to spend their time doing other things while their team is not attempting to be competitive at pro sports and are instead preparing to be competitive. I noted the happenings of it, but peoples choices are their own. Personally, I had a kid right at the onset and took care of my mom to end of life, all during the rebuild, so it was as much lack of interest as lack of availability.

I am not trashing anyone here but you talk like I am. The Stone trade was just a point of reference for comparable deal under the terms, but not value. Treliving has a job so anyone wanting to bring him to Ottawa is out of luck. It's a valid point either way though. Rebuilds are difficult and franchises obviously do not take them lightly and try to avoid them. It's not just me. It's a trendy word when things aren't going well that I think has gotten just a bit too casual. I just don't think its that simple, especially knowing how often it doesn't really work out anyways.

And my other main point has been about the position I think Calgary is in. Agree or disagree, I think they have a lot of good pieces to shuffle and are primed for a re-tool over a rebuild that a lot of other teams didn't have. I could be wrong, but that's what I'd do if I were them.

You should switch teams every time a team goes into a rebuild then, might enjoy it more.

Lol, whatever dude. I'm as tenured here as you are. I put in my time discussing the team and personnel decisions throughout the rebuild, I buy the merch, but ya, I guess I decided I had better things to do with my time than watch guys like Ron Hainsey and Nikita Zaitsev collect post expiry pay cheques, or see Chris Tierney man our top line. The last couple years have been more interesting and I've watched a bit more, but it is still relatively boring with no stakes to the games themselves.

He does enjoy basketball though, where many teams never rebuild but simply regroup a super trio each summer to try and beat the other five teams doing the same.

I suppose it sucks being a fan of the other 25 teams though….

Rebuilding in basketball just isn't a comparable. Their CBA and salary cap structure complicates so much and they don't even really have long term contracts with 3/4 being the max they ever sign with maybe an almost always declined option year tacked on. The owners did that to themselves. And really, the league has more parity to it right now than has been seen in decades. The best competition this year for the champs was a 7th and 8th seed. You should watch some time since you obviously don't pay attention. We're not in the GSW vs. Cleveland era anymore and the new CBA is built to try to punish teams compiling stars.

 

[Golden_Jet]

exactly, we got two 1st overall talents and 3 years later Dorion still struggles to make it into a winner.

not to mention he already had chabot, brady, batherson and he traded away so many picks.

No Not exactly, you said ,
he was trying to win 3 years ago
Which you incorrectly stated. That’s ok we’re used to it by now.

Dorion is trying to win for 3 years and utterly failing.

 

[aragorn]

Some forget that we lost two good players last yr Formenton (32 pts) all yr because of the incident & Norris (55 pts) to injury for most of the yr, that's over 80 pts gone. Then they lose their NHL goalies on & off throughout the yr especially near the end of the season when they needed them the most. Chabot & Zub were also hurt on & off & they used numerous AHL players throughout the season to fill in temporarily & got very little secondary scoring from the bottom six. Both Sanderson a rookie & Pinto basically another rookie were both elevated to prominent roles due to injuries. Even with all of these obstacles they still came within six pts of a playoff spot carried mostly by the top two lines. And now it seems we could lose DeBrincat another 60 plus pt player although we should hopefully get a healthy Norris back, these are not excuses these are facts. Expecting a rebuilding team to also be a succesful team is wishful thinking after they have gutted the team & rebuilding teams take time (yrs) to be successful again. We are just now starting to see what our young players can do & some are starting to break out & hopefully a few more will soon too.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

No Not exactly, you said ,
he was trying to win 3 years ago
Which you incorrectly stated. That’s ok we’re used to it by now.

Dorion is trying to win for 3 years and utterly failing.

dude three years ago he traded for Matt Murray and signed him for a 25 mill contract, 15 mill contract for Dadonov. you think Dorion was spending all that money because he wanted to lose and look like a dumbass?

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

 

[Beech]

Why are you asking me? How would I know?

That said, I would guess hatred or annoyance based on the stories we've all read about how Melnyk treats his subordinates. Not to mention, the lawsuit against him.

But your guess is as good as mine.

Your guess is good enough.

Very few individuals have been at forefront of public display, that are more puzzling than Eugene.. His death brought an end to a possible exposure of stories/truths.

His daughters owning 10%, ensure permanent silence of any "youngish" individual still hoping to associate with the league in anyway....Even media will never expose, they still need the league.

and the league will always protect dirty laundry, since it is on them all.

I keep hoping for some 70 year old, no kids..so no heirs looking to work in the league..in a "f you. I am old and don't give a f***". To come forth. Some senior Sens employee, or even a junior one, but had access.

Have you ever watched the Nixon by Nixon. in his own words.. WAHHHH!!!! I mean f***ing Wahhh!!! does not leave much.

Ditto for the Vietnam documentary by Ken Burns.. they would add whitehouse tapes. "Coonskins on the wall"..Lynden B. Johnson..

ohh well. So poor Dorion was like the rest of us, Had two vacations? His own and his boss's

 

[Golden_Jet]

dude three years ago he traded for Matt Murray and signed him for a 25 mill contract, 15 mill contract for Dadonov. you think Dorion was spending all that money because he wanted to lose and look like a dumbass?

To make the cap floor

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

To make the cap floor

That's a bit weak as a black and white answer. There are shorter term options to meet the cap floor if that's the priority. Had we actually needed to get there.