Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Micklebot]

To make the cap floor

We were 12.1 mil over the cap floor the year we acquired Dadonov and Murray, we met the cap floor without adding them.

 

[swiftwin]

That's a bit weak as a black and white answer. There are shorter term options to meet the cap floor if that's the priority.

Are there? Why would a UFA accept a 1yr deal with a rebuilding team? That's a career death sentence.

Besides, we got decent value back from Dadonov anyways. For all the whining about asset management, I never see Dadonov's name pop up these days. He came in, was a good pro, wasn't a great fit, so we flipped him for Holden (another good pro), and a 3rd. These are perfect moves for a rebuilding team.

 

[Golden_Jet]

We were 12.1 mil over the cap floor the year we acquired Dadonov and Murray, we met the cap floor without adding them.

That doesn’t mean PD was trying to make the playoffs lol.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Are there? Why would a UFA accept a 1yr deal with a rebuilding team? That's a career death sentence.

Besides, we got decent value back from Dadonov anyways. For all the whining about asset management, I never see Dadonov's name pop up these days. He came in, was a good pro, wasn't a great fit, so we flipped him for Holden (another good pro), and a 3rd. These are perfect moves for a rebuilding team.

You don't have to sign a goalie and a winger to 3 and 4 year big money term. Surely, there would be some nuance in potential options that it can't be painted like that was somehow required.

They also were already at the floor so it's a moot point anyways.

I wasn't assessing the moves themselves or the cost of clean up, just the psychology behind them and the implication it was so they could make the cap floor.

That doesn’t mean PD was trying to make the playoffs lol.

No, but it does mean your response was incorrect.

 

[Micklebot]

Are there? Why would a UFA accept a 1yr deal with a rebuilding team? That's a career death sentence.

Besides, we got decent value back from Dadonov anyways. For all the whining about asset management, I never see Dadonov's name pop up these days. He came in, was a good pro, wasn't a great fit, so we flipped him for Holden (another good pro), and a 3rd. These are perfect moves for a rebuilding team.

Yes, there absolutely are.

If the goal is to tank, there are tones of filler options, we signed Murray and Dadonov because we wanted to win, Dorion said as much himself.

I didn't mind the Dadonov signing, it didn't work out but it was a good roll of the dice. Murray is more nuanced, the contract was terrible, but I didn't initially mind taking a chance onurray for a 2nd. Once that contract was signed though it made far less sense.

 

[Golden_Jet]

You don't have to sign a goalie and a winger to 3 and 4 year big money term. Surely, there would be some nuance in potential options that it can't be painted like that was somehow required.

They also were already at the floor so it's a moot point anyways.

I wasn't assessing the moves themselves or the cost of clean up, just the psychology behind them and the implication it was so they could make the cap floor.


No, but it does mean your response was incorrect.

That was incorrect your right, but it started with Brady hater, saying why they were signed , to win now, which wasn’t the case.

So this has now run its course.

 

[Micklebot]

That doesn’t mean PD was trying to make the playoffs lol.

Oh yeah, this sounds like the words of a guy not trying to make the playoffs ...

As an organization we’re climbing the charts,” Dorion told Postmedia in an interview earlier this month. “A lot of the hard work has been done. For us, now, it’s time to perform. We’re at a place where everyone’s on the same page for our immediate success and our future success.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

That was incorrect your right, but it started with Brady hater, saying why they were signed , to win now, which wasn’t the case.

So this has now run its course.

Those were not the words Dorion used, unfortunately, so while I don't always believe what I hear from a GM's mouth, I think the available evidence actually supports them in this case.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Those were not the words Dorion used, unfortunately, so while I don't always believe what I hear from a GM's mouth, I think the available evidence actually supports them in this case.

Those are the words, Zub stated was, “to win”, that’s what started this.

Oh yeah, this sounds like the words of a guy not trying to make the playoffs ...

Also said the rebuild is over, during rebuild, sorry you believe everything he says, or for that matter, any GM says.
Best to make your own opinion and separate fact from BS.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Those are the words, Zub stated was, “to win”, that’s what started this.

Yes, I see the words posted. I feel it supports their side of the debate more than the alternative.

 

[Micklebot]

Also said the rebuild is over, during rebuild, sorry you believe everything he says, or for that matter, any GM says.
Best to make your own opinion and separate fact from BS.

His words align with his actions but apparently only you know what's really going on in his head.

Stop gaslighting, Dorion made moves to challenge for a playoff spot, they didn't work out and as a result we didn't challenge for a spot, sometimes the simple straight forward answer is the right one.

 

[swiftwin]

Yes, there absolutely are.

If the goal is to tank, there are tones of filler options, we signed Murray and Dadonov because we wanted to win, Dorion said as much himself.

I didn't mind the Dadonov signing, it didn't work out but it was a good roll of the dice. Murray is more nuanced, the contract was terrible, but I didn't initially mind taking a chance onurray for a 2nd. Once that contract was signed though it made far less sense.

The goal is rarely ever to tank outright, especially not multiple years in a row. Our "tank" year was 2019-2020, which set us up for that epic 2020 draft.

The goal in 2020-21 was to help develop the young core, DJ made a statement right off the bat by putting together Tkachuk-Norris-Batherson on the first line in the first game of the season, saying they were the line of the future. There's a difference between "wanting to win", and really wanting to win enough to make the playoffs. The goal in 2020-21 was to bring in some "good pros" who are good enough to hold their own in the NHL, but not so good that they take development minutes away from the kids. That usually means established NHLers with lots of games under their belt that can take the brunt of loses and help shelter the kids as required. That's why we went out and got Dadonov, Stepan and Gudbranson that year, who had a combined ~2000 games of professional experience (almost 3000 games if you count Coburn). Those kinds of players are not going to sign a 1 year deal with a rebuilding team. We got lucky Hainsey did it once as a favor to DJ in 2019 (probably because he already decided to retire at the end of that season), but it's very rare. You don't want AHL caliber filler when trying to ease kids like Norris, Batherson, Stutzle, etc into the NHL.

So, your only options are to give term to these declining veterans as a UFA (risky), or move assets to acquire these veterans on expiring contracts, thereby favoring risk management over asset management. Dadonov was the former, Stepan and Gudbranson were the latter. Murray was a reclamation project, and a different thing altogether.

You can go back to Dorion's press conference at the end of that season, and he explain quite plainly the importance of bringing in what he calls "character veterans", which is not the same thing as "quality veterans", and goes on to explain, and I quote "At some point at time, when we feel we're ready to win, we might have to package a pick or a prospect to make that next step". and later says "At some point and time, we might have to do that, I don't think we're there yet". As it turns out, "that point and time" was last summer when we went and got Giroux, DeBrincat, and eventually Chychrun.

Almost everything we've seen so far in this rebuild has been telegraphed by Dorion years in advance, if you're actually paying attention.

 

[Ice-Tray]

You're bordering on areas I don't really care to get into if I'm honest. People can fan however they want and there's no right or wrong in how they choose to do it. I don't fault anyone for choosing to spend their time doing other things while their team is not attempting to be competitive at pro sports and are instead preparing to be competitive. I noted the happenings of it, but peoples choices are their own. Personally, I had a kid right at the onset and took care of my mom to end of life, all during the rebuild, so it was as much lack of interest as lack of availability.

I am not trashing anyone here but you talk like I am. The Stone trade was just a point of reference for comparable deal under the terms, but not value. Treliving has a job so anyone wanting to bring him to Ottawa is out of luck. It's a valid point either way though. Rebuilds are difficult and franchises obviously do not take them lightly and try to avoid them. It's not just me. It's a trendy word when things aren't going well that I think has gotten just a bit too casual. I just don't think its that simple, especially knowing how often it doesn't really work out anyways.

And my other main point has been about the position I think Calgary is in. Agree or disagree, I think they have a lot of good pieces to shuffle and are primed for a re-tool over a rebuild that a lot of other teams didn't have. I could be wrong, but that's what I'd do if I were them.


Lol, whatever dude. I'm as tenured here as you are. I put in my time discussing the team and personnel decisions throughout the rebuild, I buy the merch, but ya, I guess I decided I had better things to do with my time than watch guys like Ron Hainsey and Nikita Zaitsev collect post expiry pay cheques, or see Chris Tierney man our top line. The last couple years have been more interesting and I've watched a bit more, but it is still relatively boring with no stakes to the games themselves.



Rebuilding in basketball just isn't a comparable. Their CBA and salary cap structure complicates so much and they don't even really have long term contracts with 3/4 being the max they ever sign with maybe an almost always declined option year tacked on. The owners did that to themselves. And really, the league has more parity to it right now than has been seen in decades. The best competition this year for the champs was a 7th and 8th seed. You should watch some time since you obviously don't pay attention. We're not in the GSW vs. Cleveland era anymore and the new CBA is built to try to punish teams compiling stars.

Dude, I wasn’t trashing you, or anyone. Being a fan is a personal thing with personal goals.

I agree with your point on basketball rebuilding which is why I said it. Fans usually don’t have to go through protracted rebuild periods, especially fans of the big teams that live in the luxury tax area, so it’s a much more rewarding sport to be a fan of if you hate rebuilds. Not knocking you or anyone at all.

My point was to highlight the differences between two groups of fans, not rank or rate them, and how they can diverge during a long rebuild and reconnect during the good times.

You‘re the one claiming the last 5 years sucked for you, and I’m cool with that, it explains a lot in terms of patience levels and points of view. People who have found a way to enjoy the process should also be afforded the space to have reasonable takes given their different perspective.

Make no mistake, being a hard core
fan of any stripe is a colossal waste of time, emotion, and money in my opinion, and I am
one. We seem to need the escapism, and the soap opera, and life is short, so whatever!

I’ll be very clear to you if/when I decide to trash you man.

 

[Ice-Tray]

The goal is rarely ever to tank outright, especially not multiple years in a row. Our "tank" year was 2019-2020, which set us up for that epic 2020 draft.

The goal in 2020-21 was to help develop the young core, DJ made a statement right off the bat by putting together Tkachuk-Norris-Batherson on the first line in the first game of the season, saying they were the line of the future. There's a difference between "wanting to win", and really wanting to win enough to make the playoffs. The goal in 2020-21 was to bring in some "good pros" who are good enough to hold their own in the NHL, but not so good that they take development minutes away from the kids. That usually means established NHLers with lots of games under their belt that can take the brunt of loses and help shelter the kids as required. That's why we went out and got Dadonov, Stepan and Gudbranson that year, who had a combined ~2000 games of professional experience (almost 3000 games if you count Coburn). Those kinds of players are not going to sign a 1 year deal with a rebuilding team. We got lucky Hainsey did it once as a favor to DJ in 2019 (probably because he already decided to retire at the end of that season), but it's very rare. You don't want AHL caliber filler when trying to ease kids like Norris, Batherson, Stutzle, etc into the NHL.

So, your only options are to give term to these declining veterans as a UFA (risky), or move assets to acquire these veterans on expiring contracts, thereby favoring risk management over asset management. Dadonov was the former, Stepan and Gudbranson were the latter. Murray was a reclamation project, and a different thing altogether.

You can go back to Dorion's press conference at the end of that season, and he explain quite plainly the importance of bringing in what he calls "character veterans", which is not the same thing as "quality veterans", and goes on to explain, and I quote "At some point at time, when we feel we're ready to win, we might have to package a pick or a prospect to make that next step". and later says "At some point and time, we might have to do that, I don't think we're there yet". As it turns out, "that point and time" was last summer when we went and got Giroux, DeBrincat, and eventually Chychrun.

Almost everything we've seen so far in this rebuild has been telegraphed by Dorion years in advance, if you're actually paying attention.

It has all been reasonably explained along the way, including EM wanting to cut salary as low as possible during the rebuild years In order to ‘bank’ that money to be spent all at once to ice a cap team for his now infamous FYOUS.

This rebuild not only followed a development plan, but it all had to happen on a cap floor ish budget each year.

Some people aren’t interested in how or why things occurred the way they did, they just want to try and gather bits a pieces here and there that support their prepackaged narratives that are usually hate based.

Its weird to me because that has nothing to do with getting a better understanding of things, that’s just getting personal about pro sports.

 

[Ice-Tray]

His words align with his actions but apparently only you know what's really going on in his head.

Stop gaslighting, Dorion made moves to challenge for a playoff spot, they didn't work out and as a result we didn't challenge for a spot, sometimes the simple straight forward answer is the right one.

Wait, are you saying that adding Daddy and Murray were moves to challenge for a playoff spot or do you mean last year?

Daddy was added to score some goals, he said that I remember, and Murray looked like an opportunistic move for our goalie of the future given his age and the contract… Which didn’t work out, but I don’t remember anyone mentioning the playoffs.

 

[Micklebot]

The goal is rarely ever to tank outright, especially not multiple years in a row. Our "tank" year was 2019-2020, which set us up for that epic 2020 draft.

The goal in 2020-21 was to help develop the young core, DJ made a statement right off the bat by putting together Tkachuk-Norris-Batherson on the first line in the first game of the season, saying they were the line of the future. There's a difference between "wanting to win", and really wanting to win enough to make the playoffs. The goal in 2020-21 was to bring in some "good pros" who are good enough to hold their own in the NHL, but not so good that they take development minutes away from the kids. That usually means established NHLers with lots of games under their belt that can take the brunt of loses and help shelter the kids as required. That's why we went out and got Dadonov, Stepan and Gudbranson that year, who had a combined ~2000 games of professional experience (almost 3000 games if you count Coburn). Those kinds of players are not going to sign a 1 year deal with a rebuilding team. We got lucky Hainsey did it once as a favor to DJ in 2019 (probably because he already decided to retire at the end of that season), but it's very rare. You don't want AHL caliber filler when trying to ease kids like Norris, Batherson, Stutzle, etc into the NHL.

So, your only options are to give term to these declining veterans as a UFA (risky), or move assets to acquire these veterans on expiring contracts, thereby favoring risk management over asset management. Dadonov was the former, Stepan and Gudbranson were the latter. Murray was a reclamation project, and a different thing altogether.

You can go back to Dorion's press conference at the end of that season, and he explain quite plainly the importance of bringing in what he calls "character veterans", which is not the same thing as "quality veterans", and goes on to explain, and I quote "At some point at time, when we feel we're ready to win, we might have to package a pick or a prospect to make that next step". and later says "At some point and time, we might have to do that, I don't think we're there yet". As it turns out, "that point and time" was last summer when we went and got Giroux, DeBrincat, and eventually Chychrun.

Almost everything we've seen so far in this rebuild has been telegraphed by Dorion years in advance, if you're actually paying attention.

Your moving the goal posts a bit here, you questioned whether there were other ways to meet the cap floor that Dadonov and Murray acquisitions, there absolutely are, we didn't even need them to meet the cap floor, so its somewhat moot but they were both brought in to help the team win now and in the future, not guarantee the team make the playoffs, but certainly with the goal of making it possible and being competitive in an admittedly tough division play season.

A post season press conference where the team clearly didn't live up to the expectations he set at the start of the year is going play up the development aspects over the on ice impact of the acquisitions, but you're right that we weren't trying to outright tank, nor were we trying to guarantee playoffs with the mves, but they were absolutely made with the intent of winning more games now, not just to meet the cap floor.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Your moving the goal posts a bit here, you questioned whether there were other ways to meet the cap floor that Dadonov and Murray acquisitions, there absolutely are, we didn't even need them to meet the cap floor, so its somewhat moot but they were both brought in to help the team win now and in the future, not guarantee the team make the playoffs, but certainly with the goal of making it possible and being competitive in an admittedly tough division play season.

A post season press conference where the team clearly didn't live up to the expectations he set at the start of the year is going play up the development aspects over the on ice impact of the acquisitions, but you're right that we weren't trying to outright tank, nor were we trying to guarantee playoffs with the mves, but they were absolutely made with the intent of winning more games now, not just to meet the cap floor.

I’m not so sure this is true. People often choose to interpret the season ending conferences in whatever way suits their personal narratives, it’s natural.

There is no available evidence to support changing the veracity of their statements though, so really all we are left with is what they said, and what it means. Not what they said, and what we THINK they mean.

There was talk of adding scoring, taking steps, nothing about making the playoffs. Simply looking at that team and the age of the key players makes it extremely difficult for me to make assumptions that we were trying to push for the playoffs, or even close to be honest. better than the previous year though, that’s a reasonable goal.

Daddy showing the core how to score, especially on the PP is a reasonable goal. Murray giving the young team some confidence from the net out is definitely a reasonable goal.

We didn’t need either to meet the cap floor, but we weren’t venturing far with hopes of season success. Daddy and Murray don’t convince anyone that that squad was a threat.

Now, DBC, and G this last off season certainly did, and we saw what that looked like as fans and media. Still the players, coaches, and management were cautious.

 

[Micklebot]

Wait, are you saying that adding Daddy and Murray were moves to challenge for a playoff spot or do you mean last year?

Daddy was added to score some goals, he said that I remember, and Murray looked like an opportunistic move for our goalie of the future given his age and the contract… Which didn’t work out, but I don’t remember anyone mentioning the playoffs.

I posted what Dorion said at the time. It was always going to be a long shot given the divisional play format, but the team intended to be competitive that year, far more so than they were, and maybe challenge for a spot.

The reality is there is a lot of parity in the league, it doesn't take a lot for a team to slide or rise, especially in a shortened season. Had Murray bounced back to his early days form, Dadonov played like he did in Florida, how far off do you think we'd have been from MTL for the final playoff spot?

Things went about as bad as they could with our acquisitions.

 

[swiftwin]

Your moving the goal posts a bit here, you questioned whether there were other ways to meet the cap floor that Dadonov and Murray acquisitions, there absolutely are, we didn't even need them to meet the cap floor, so its somewhat moot but they were both brought in to help the team win now and in the future, not guarantee the team make the playoffs, but certainly with the goal of making it possible and being competitive in an admittedly tough division play season.

A post season press conference where the team clearly didn't live up to the expectations he set at the start of the year is going play up the development aspects over the on ice impact of the acquisitions, but you're right that we weren't trying to outright tank, nor were we trying to guarantee playoffs with the mves, but they were absolutely made with the intent of winning more games now, not just to meet the cap floor.

First of all, I'm not the one who brought up the cap floor argument.

My argument is simply that we brought in those players that offseason because they were good pros that would help develop our young players. If we got more wins because of those players, then that's a bonus, but that's not the core reason we brought them in.

Also, that Dorion presser is relevant because he didn't just say this was his goal in 2020-21, but that it was also going to be his goal in the following season.

2018-2020: Teardown and tank
2020-2022: Focus on development of young players
2022-present: Focus on actually winning and making the playoffs

 

[Micklebot]

I’m not so sure this is true. People often choose to interpret the season ending conferences in whatever way suits their personal narratives, it’s natural.

There is no available evidence to support changing the veracity of their statements though, so really all we are left with is what they said, and what it means. Not what they said, and what we THINK they mean.

It's funny, because you've got preseason Dorion saying we've done the hard work, now's the time to win, and post season Dorion saying it was always about development.

What I'm saying is the truth is it was a bit of both, we wanted to win now, but development was still the primary goal. The thing is, winning helps development, you got to learn what it takes to win by winning so.e games.

 

[DaveMatthew]

First of all, I'm not the one who brought up the cap floor argument.

My argument is simply that we brought in those players that offseason because they were good pros that would help develop our young players. If we got more wins because of those players, then that's a bonus, but that's not the core reason we brought them in.

Also, that Dorion presser is relevant because he didn't just say this was his goal in 2020-21, but that it was also going to be his goal in the following season.

2018-2020: Teardown and tank
2020-2022: Focus on development of young players
2022-present: Focus on actually winning and making the playoffs

I don't think anyone would use the words "good pro" to describe Matt Murray. Not even in Pittsburgh, a place where he won two cups.

Erik Gudbranson was a good pro. Matt Murray is, and always has been, a head case.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I posted what Dorion said at the time. It was always going to be a long shot given the divisional play format, but the team intended to be competitive that year, far more so than they were, and maybe challenge for a spot.

The reality is there is a lot of parity in the league, it doesn't take a lot for a team to slide or rise, especially in a shortened season. Had Murray bounced back to his early days form, Dadonov played like he did in Florida, how far off do you think we'd have been from MTL for the final playoff spot?

Things went about as bad as they could with our acquisitions.

I know, I read it, and remember. It’s one of those situations where people have attached their own meaning to his words, their own expectations, and then we’re disappointed when they weren’t met (not saying you personally).

The team wanted to be MORE competitive, and wanted to take a step in development. I don’t think many people expected ‘competitive’ to mean for a playoff spot, or took his comments to mean that.

I mean this last season‘s team was much better than that team and most people still didn’t expect playoffs.

We definitly didn’t meet expectations in terms of how Daddy or Murray performed that’s for sure, and if they had we would have surly had some more wins (but not close to playoffs).

Neither trade helped in the end save for that epic leafs game from Daddy, but we did see another season of solid development from our young core players.

 

[Micklebot]

First of all, I'm not the one who brought up the cap floor argument.

My argument is simply that we brought in those players that offseason because they were good pros that would help develop our young players. If we got more wins because of those players, then that's a bonus, but that's not the core reason we brought them in.

Also, that Dorion presser is relevant because he didn't just say this was his goal in 2020-21, but that it was also going to be his goal in the following season.

2018-2020: Teardown and tank
2020-2022: Focus on development of young players
2022-present: Focus on actually winning and making the playoffs

And it went against what he said before the season. Weird how after his preseason statements prove to not be accurate, he changes the narrative,eh?

 

[swiftwin]

I don't think anyone would use the words "good pro" to describe Matt Murray. Not even in Pittsburgh, a place where he won two cups.

Neither did I:

So, your only options are to give term to these declining veterans as a UFA (risky), or move assets to acquire these veterans on expiring contracts, thereby favoring risk management over asset management. Dadonov was the former, Stepan and Gudbranson were the latter. Murray was a reclamation project, and a different thing altogether.

Murray was simply a low risk high reward move that flopped. Little ventured, nothing gained.

 

[Ice-Tray]

It's funny, because you've got preseason Dorion saying we've done the hard work, now's the time to win, and post season Dorion saying it was always about development.

What I'm saying is the truth is it was a bit of both, we wanted to win now, but development was still the primary goal. The thing is, winning helps development, you got to learn what it takes to win by winning so.e games.

But that’s not really what he said now is it?

He quantified the ‘hard work’ rather than made it an absolute like ‘done’ as you put it.

He also said it was time to ‘perform’ which again isn‘t a synonym of ‘win’.

You’re changing the quote to be more specific and absolute to suit your point.

I’ll say it again, nobody expected playoffs, and I don’t remember anyone in here talking much about it either. It seems like you have retrospectively added that expectation and tried to make quotes fit while throwing away others that don’t.

What‘s the point?

”As an organization we’re climbing the charts,” Dorion told Postmedia in an interview earlier this month. “A lot of the hard work has been done. For us, now, it’s time to perform. We’re at a place where everyone’s on the same page for our immediate success and our future success.”

Here is the quote again for context. Reads like taking another step in a process to me. Sounds like tanking is done and it’s time to start winning some games.

I agree with your second paragraph