Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Micklebot]

Which preseason are you talking about? I posted his end of season presser from the 2020-21 season, where he says he wouldn't make a big splash for the following season, saying "At some point at time, when we feel we're ready to win, we might have to package a pick or a prospect to make that next step". and later says "At some point and time, we might have to do that, I don't think we're there yet".

He signaled BEFORE the 2021-22 season that it was likely to be another "development year".

I posted his comments in 2020 after acquiring Murray and Dadonov above, probably on the previous page, he was signaling that the 2020-21 season was a transition from previous years where now they expected to perform, here's the link

Newsmakers 2020: Senators' Pierre Dorion hopes he's built a contender

“A lot of the hard work has been done. For us, now, it’s time to perform."

ottawacitizen.com

Dorion blew his budget on Dadonov and Murray, so of course they weren't making any big acquisitions the next year, they had to hope murray bounced back,

 

[swiftwin]

I posted his comments in 2020 after acquiring Murray and Dadonov above, probably on the previous page, he was signaling that the 2020-21 season was a transition from previous years where now they expected to perform, here's the link

Newsmakers 2020: Senators' Pierre Dorion hopes he's built a contender

“A lot of the hard work has been done. For us, now, it’s time to perform."

ottawacitizen.com

Dorion blew his budget on Dadonov and Murray, so of course they weren't making any big acquisitions the next year, they had to hope murray bounced back,

Okay? I don't see the issue here. What Dorion is explaining is a transition from the teardown phase to the build up phase.

 

[Micklebot]

Okay? I don't see the issue here. What Dorion is explaining is a transition from the teardown phase to the build up phase.

That's an interesting interpretation of "now, it’s time to perform. We’re at a place where everyone’s on the same page for our immediate success"

 

[swiftwin]

Dorion truthers are the flat earthers of the hockey world.

Ask anyone around the league, and they'll tell you the rebuild is going well. You're living in denial. You're doubling and tripling down because you refuse to admit you were wrong.

 

[PlayersLtd]

That's an interesting interpretation of "now, it’s time to perform. We’re at a place where everyone’s on the same page for our immediate success"

And then COVID hit. A young team was never going to navigate that new reality well and thus the decision to prolong the tank was made.

People overlook that it would have been futile for us to try to compete during those two seasons.

edit- article was late 2020 (10 months into COVID) but I maintain my point.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

Ask anyone around the league, and they'll tell you the rebuild is going well. You're living in denial. You're doubling and tripling down because you refuse to admit you were wrong.

Who “around the league” have you asked? Serious question.

 

[PlayersLtd]

Who “around the league” have you asked? Serious question.

Probably just comparing it to league average by which standard it is undeniably going well.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Who “around the league” have you asked? Serious question.

Could be referring to every pundit, coach, GM, opposing player, or the multitude of away team broadcasters who all make similar comments about how we’re a good young team that’s on the up and up.

Only on this forum do I see negative comments about the team. Every hockey friend I have out here, all Canucks fans, are envious of our teams future and gush over Brady and Stu.

Seems like posters from other teams who come in here also always seem to make similar comments.

Who knows, maybe they’re all wrong, some of us too apparently

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

The Ottawa Senators media and others who pay no attention to Ottawa give vague praise and hope to a fanbase.

The serious journalists and people in hockey circles are not talking about how great things are in Ottawa under Pierre Dorion.

That is pure bullshit.

No one has a hate-on for PD other than the haters.

PD was highly touted last season. We'll see what happens this season.

 

[bicboi64]

You're bordering on areas I don't really care to get into if I'm honest. People can fan however they want and there's no right or wrong in how they choose to do it. I don't fault anyone for choosing to spend their time doing other things while their team is not attempting to be competitive at pro sports and are instead preparing to be competitive. I noted the happenings of it, but peoples choices are their own. Personally, I had a kid right at the onset and took care of my mom to end of life, all during the rebuild, so it was as much lack of interest as lack of availability.

I am not trashing anyone here but you talk like I am. The Stone trade was just a point of reference for comparable deal under the terms, but not value. Treliving has a job so anyone wanting to bring him to Ottawa is out of luck. It's a valid point either way though. Rebuilds are difficult and franchises obviously do not take them lightly and try to avoid them. It's not just me. It's a trendy word when things aren't going well that I think has gotten just a bit too casual. I just don't think its that simple, especially knowing how often it doesn't really work out anyways.

Lol, whatever dude. I'm as tenured here as you are. I put in my time discussing the team and personnel decisions throughout the rebuild, I buy the merch, but ya, I guess I decided I had better things to do with my time than watch guys like Ron Hainsey and Nikita Zaitsev collect post expiry pay cheques, or see Chris Tierney man our top line. The last couple years have been more interesting and I've watched a bit more, but it is still relatively boring with no stakes to the games themselves.

You've already addressed this but I want to add my 2 cents in. No one has the right to tell any other sens fan here how to be a fan. We get to participate in fandom in whatever way that suits us. Whether we watch 82 games live, record them, only highlights, read articles, buy or don't buy merch, etc...

We're here discussing ideas that are just for fun, and I hope I keep seeing posts like yours regardless of anyone telling you that you need to switch teams at any point.

 

[bicboi64]

You seem to be thinking of 2019-20, there was no play in round in 2020-21, 4 teams from each division made it.

Hers the thing, we bought out Ryan, and signed Dadonov, you've be rewriting history since the start of this conversation, fist saying we needed to hit the cap floor with those pickups, we didn't, now saying it was the playin round we were 8 pts out from, it wasn't,

This was the year where the purse strings opened up, there was a clear change in expectations, and Dorion's moves telegraphed it.

Moves like that are what irk me from Dorion. We had leadership on the team and contracts that we just had to wait out. Why spend even more than what we initially did when the roster is going to be just as week.

The evaluation of certain players selected to be a part of the rebuild just doens't make any sense considering what we had, what Dorion ended up paying, and especially what ended up happening (paying to move players).

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Ask anyone around the league, and they'll tell you the rebuild is going well. You're living in denial. You're doubling and tripling down because you refuse to admit you were wrong.

Yea man soon as he gets fired 31 teams are gonna be killing each other to have Pierre Dorions services

 

[bert]

Treliving got 2 players with 1 year left on their contracts and signed them both to massive deals that are are certainly looking bad. He let Johnny Gaudreau walk for nothing. I'd say he's an average GM.

What did you want him to do with Gaudreau? He was a Hart nominee and they almost won the west. He told them he was going to sign.

Treliving got Huberdeau, Weegar, 1st round pick and Cole schwind who played nhl games. He signed them to extensions... that's an incredible haul for a player that was leaving. Let's be accurate here.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

What I don't get is how he's so fragile in general. Like, it's not one thing, it's a whole bunch of them. It always seems to be something different, but somehow he pulls it off one after another.

Can't help but notice that as a trend for virtually ALL of our goalies over the last, well, just about a decade now. It can't be a case of simply drafting, trading and signing frail netminders. How this team plays defensively (and not just the blueliners, but all the skaters) play a role in it. A netminder has to make hard save after hard save after hard save, with multiple shots on net before we regain possession, and do that game after game after game.....that puts one hell of a lot more strain on our netminders. It's no wonder they're all falling apart.

 

[DueDiligence]

The Ottawa Senators media and others who pay no attention to Ottawa give vague praise and hope to a fanbase.

The serious journalists and people in hockey circles are not talking about how great things are in Ottawa under Pierre Dorion.

What I don't understand is why you either have to love or hate PD's work. Compared to other GMs he has been average. People might view his overall performance below that but I gave him some slack when you factor in the penny pinching and interference from EM.
Basically he has one more kick at the can this summer and his job and future will depend on how he does.

 

[DueDiligence]

Ask anyone around the league, and they'll tell you the rebuild is going well. You're living in denial. You're doubling and tripling down because you refuse to admit you were wrong.

Rebuild is going OK but not "well". This year is critical.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Ask anyone around the league, and they'll tell you the rebuild is going well. You're living in denial. You're doubling and tripling down because you refuse to admit you were wrong.

Well this is obviously not within reach for most of us. We can’t ask people around the league.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

Could be referring to every pundit, coach, GM, opposing player, or the multitude of away team broadcasters who all make similar comments about how we’re a good young team that’s on the up and up.

Only on this forum do I see negative comments about the team. Every hockey friend I have out here, all Canucks fans, are envious of our teams future and gush over Brady and Stu.

Seems like posters from other teams who come in here also always seem to make similar comments.

Who knows, maybe they’re all wrong, some of us too apparently

Honestly I was just nitpicking his use of the phrase "ask anyone around the league", which I would interpret as having a real conversation with someone who's actually employed by an NHL team.

As in "I was having beers with Jim Montgomery and some of the Bruins pro scouts the other day and all they kept talking about is how Parker Kelly is the ideal 4th line energy player!"

I may be in the minority in this board, but if someone suggests to me I should "ask anyone around the league"... well, there's nothing I can do because I don't know anyone to ask.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Can't help but notice that as a trend for virtually ALL of our goalies over the last, well, just about a decade now. It can't be a case of simply drafting, trading and signing frail netminders. How this team plays defensively (and not just the blueliners, but all the skaters) play a role in it. A netminder has to make hard save after hard save after hard save, with multiple shots on net before we regain possession, and do that game after game after game.....that puts one hell of a lot more strain on our netminders. It's no wonder they're all falling apart.

At 5on5, we averaged 2.76 high danger shots against per 60, which was fairly average relatively speaking. We were 4th worst in high danger goals against per 60. Another major problem this year was low danger shots, 5on5. There were 20 teams with a higher amount of low danger shots against per 60 but only 7 teams with a higher goals against on low danger shots per 60.

The proposal you're making of high volume, high danger scoring chances leading to injuries is kinda not true, specific to last year. Our goalies saw a relatively average amount of high danger shots against per 60, in the same grouping with Tampa, Florida and others. The results on goals against though, for both high danger and low danger, was significantly worse than expected. The argument for considerable underperformance by goaltenders this year is more compelling - although you could certainly say that getting into goalies #5, #6 and #7 on the depth chart did absolutely nothing to help those numbers.

 

[Beech]

Honestly I was just nitpicking his use of the phrase "ask anyone around the league", which I would interpret as having a real conversation with someone who's actually employed by an NHL team.

As in "I was having beers with Jim Montgomery and some of the Bruins pro scouts the other day and all they kept talking about is how Parker Kelly is the ideal 4th line energy player!"

I may be in the minority in this board, but if someone suggests to me I should "ask anyone around the league"... well, there's nothing I can do because I don't know anyone to ask.

~83 M salary cap. ~ 80 M operating budget.. The Sens will fly to approximately 41 away games all told (pre-season and regular season). A charter is ~ 500 K a trip.. So ~ 20 M for flights alone.

so ~ 163 M to operate the team... That money does not drop from the sky like rain in October, or snow in Januray! It has to come from fans. ~ 75 M from TV deals. ~ 15 M from other. That leaves a whopping 73 M that must come from fans.

That means... Asses in seats.. cars in the parking lot...hands around $20 beers. That means 18,000-19,000 fans a game.

If less than 18,000 fans... loses.. The Melnyk's found that out. In extreme cases, the loses are $30M/year.

so, what is important?.. get fans in seats.... make sure they are happy and not QUESTIONING...NOT wondering if the team is good or not. Not Questioning decisions/actions.. Happy and ignorant. Mushrooms; kept in the dark and fed shit.

I hope you are playing here??? as are some other 10-12 posters.

 

[LuckyPierre]

Ask anyone around the league, and they'll tell you the rebuild is going well. You're living in denial. You're doubling and tripling down because you refuse to admit you were wrong.

We're talking about a non-playoff team six years running with no goaltending, and nothing resembling playoff-ready depth at either F or D.

There are some great pieces signed to value deals. The top 6 D is in a better place than it has been in a long while, although that's saying very little. Same with the top 6 at F. Beyond that, the roster construction and asset base is woefully inadequate.

Factor in that free agency typically hurts this franchise more than it helps. Factor in that we have very little support coming by way of current prospects, not to mention that high future draft picks have been traded away to get us to current state. And factor in that it didn't have to be this way - this current hockey ops regime has leaked assets rather than accumulating them.

This team should be much further ahead.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

We're talking about a non-playoff team six years running with no goaltending, and nothing resembling playoff-ready depth at either F or D.

There are some great pieces signed to value deals. The top 6 D is in a better place than it has been in a long while, although that's saying very little. Same with the top 6 at F. Beyond that, the roster construction and asset base is woefully inadequate.

Factor in that free agency typically hurts this franchise more than it helps. Factor in that we have very little support coming by way of current prospects, not to mention that high future draft picks have been traded away to get us to current state. And factor in that it didn't have to be this way - this current hockey ops regime has leaked assets rather than accumulating them.

This team should be much further ahead.

At the risk of being called a hater again, I agree with this. A mix of good on the draft develop extend side and bad at the fill in around the young players and rush the process side

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Micklebot never really seems to have any issues. I think everyone would agree he’s very even handed.

Its all what side of the fence you are on. The want Dorion out side, the My God Dorion is super human side and the middle of the road side.
The Want out side rails against Dorion and the My God side rails against those who rail against Dorion and supports and embraces that anti-poster messaging. Mick is a middle of the road guy.
I have an issue with calling posters HATERS just because they are on an opposing side. This is a very autocratic rule thing to do. I am a power to the people guy lol.

 

[Ice-Tray]

We're talking about a non-playoff team six years running with no goaltending, and nothing resembling playoff-ready depth at either F or D.

There are some great pieces signed to value deals. The top 6 D is in a better place than it has been in a long while, although that's saying very little. Same with the top 6 at F. Beyond that, the roster construction and asset base is woefully inadequate.

Factor in that free agency typically hurts this franchise more than it helps. Factor in that we have very little support coming by way of current prospects, not to mention that high future draft picks have been traded away to get us to current state. And factor in that it didn't have to be this way - this current hockey ops regime has leaked assets rather than accumulating them.

This team should be much further ahead.

Context is important . How many of our key players have been on the team for 6 years, how many of them even have 6 years experience in the NHL. This is one of these points that displays the frustration of not making the playoffs, but does nothing for the discussion about why that is.

Well I mean we have the top 4 D sorted, the bottom pairing filled adequately (with Hammy short term and Kleven longer term) and 5 top six guys sorted. We also have two bottom 6 guys sorted, and a handful of good prospects that are in track to be potentially be really good bottom pairing and bottom 6 guys.

We have two good goalie prospects, and Forsberg who is at worst a good backup.

So in terms of a team build, we have all but starting goalie pretty well sorted for key team positions.

Bottom 6 roles are relatively easy and cheap to fill, with lots of options always available. Fit and finish, and specific roles is the key here.

The next GM may be a wizard at filling those role player slots, which is great when PD is relaxed, as those guys need to be rotated over the years to make contracts fit, but this team is almost done in terms of build.

finding the right goalie is the biggest task, and we still have one top line piece to trade for assets.

No matter who comes in to replace the coach and GM this team is in an awesome situation as it stands right now.

 

[Silencio]

Here's a sobering stat I saw today:

Since 2012, Ottawa is last in the league at producing NHLers who have played at least 200 games - tied with Colorado and Vegas, the latter of which had 5 less entire drafts than we did.

I don't loathe Dorion like some people, but it really is time for him to move on. Hopefully Andlauer comes to the same conclusion.