Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[swiftwin]

6 D is not enough depth to make a run. It also assumes that Hamonic and Branny return, both of which are not assured. And Lassi/JBD are unproven in playoff style hockey as next men up. I like the look of our top 4 a lot. But series are won and lost with depth, and it's often said you need 8 or so competent D to make a run. Moves need to be made this summer to make that happen. Not impossible, but we are not there.

The top 6 F are great. Happy with status quo, assuming a slight downgrade on DBC comes back. However, you need three legitimate scoring lines and a truculent and defensive-minded grinder line to make waves come playoff time. That is not how this roster is constructed.

You talk about getting Pinto back in the bottom 6, which leads me to my final point. Our centres are too small. Stutzle/Norris/Pinto are highly skilled, but I have questions about how often we will see all three in the lineup simultaneously due to vulnerability. And come playoff time, I have concerns as to how they'll get leaned on by teams with big defencemen and centres.

Without question, the rebuild has accelerated. I'm just not sold on it, nor should anyone be - we are in the midst of our longest playoff drought, and there are legitimate concerns that it may be prolonged.

I agree with (almost) everything here. The only thing I don't agree with is the whole "small center" problem. They're all 6ft+. Also, Kastelic is showing lots of potential as the big body 4th line center. Easy to forget he was a 23yr old rookie last year. Otherwise, there's also Greig who's a natural center. We're very deep down the middle.

Otherwise, you're right, there's still some finishing touches to put on the team. Fortunately, finding a 7th defenseman and bottom 6 wingers is the easiest thing to find. The off-season hasn't even started yet. Plus, there's always the trade deadline if we're in a playoff position.

 

[BankStreetParade]

For all the talk of the rebuild and patience, let's look at the timeline of the two most recent "successful" full tear down / tank rebuilds: Pittsburgh and Chicago.

Pittsburgh:

2003: Bottomed out to finish last in the league and acquired core piece MAF.
2005: Key draft for obvious reasons
2006-07: made playoffs
2008-09: Win first of three Cups.

Four years after scrapping it all to rebuild they were in the playoffs and two years after that they won the Cup.

Chicago:
2006: Went into rebuild mode. 3rd last. First franchise piece acquired.
2007: Key draft for obvious reasons
2008-09: Made playoffs and went to WCF.
2009-10: Win first of 3 Cups.

Four years after sucking and getting Toews they won the Stanley Cup. Two years after their key draft they made the WCF.


Now Ottawa:
2018: Acquire captain who joins Chabot (2015) as foundational pieces.
2019: Tank continues but no 1st round pick (could have been Byram, Cozens or Seider)
2020: Key draft in terms of quality and depth.
2021: Miss playoffs draft Boucher (tenuous future as anything more than a role player)
2022: Miss playoffs and trade away 1st round pick - acquire Debrincat
2023: Miss playoffs and trade away 1st round pick - acquire Chychrun

Both Chicago and Pittsburgh made the playoffs less than two years after their most important draft. We're three and counting.

Both franchises won Cups 5 years after their first franchise skater is drafted (goalies take longer). Tkachuk sadly hasn't even played a playoff game in his first 5 years (not saying this is on him).

While I like our core a lot, our management group has done a very poor job of surrounding them with quality support players.

We've got a nice top 6 F right now and a very good top 4 D but anyone who says this rebuild has been successful is ignoring history and in denial about the failures of our organization. The future could still be bright but it needs new leadership.

I want Pittsburgh or Chicago for us, not Buffalo or even Toronto.

The two biggest caveats are draft talent and luck. Pittsburgh ended up with a guy who's currently 15th in NHL history in scoring - and could be in the top 10 before the end of the season - and another guy who's also in the top 50 all time, and will be in the top 40 before year's end. Meanwhile, Chicago ended up with a guy who'll most likely pass Iginla at 36th on the list this year.

These are some of the greatest players of all time. You can't really make a direct comparison to "successful" rebuilds without the massive caveat of drafting literal generational talent. In that department, it looks like we have not succeeded at landing such a player, unless Stutzle somehow becomes that.

 

[swiftwin]

For all the talk of the rebuild and patience, let's look at the timeline of the two most recent "successful" full tear down / tank rebuilds: Pittsburgh and Chicago.

Pittsburgh:

2003: Bottomed out to finish last in the league and acquired core piece MAF.
2005: Key draft for obvious reasons
2006-07: made playoffs
2008-09: Win first of three Cups.

Four years after scrapping it all to rebuild they were in the playoffs and two years after that they won the Cup.

Chicago:
2006: Went into rebuild mode. 3rd last. First franchise piece acquired.
2007: Key draft for obvious reasons
2008-09: Made playoffs and went to WCF.
2009-10: Win first of 3 Cups.

Four years after sucking and getting Toews they won the Stanley Cup. Two years after their key draft they made the WCF.


Now Ottawa:
2018: Acquire captain who joins Chabot (2015) as foundational pieces.
2019: Tank continues but no 1st round pick (could have been Byram, Cozens or Seider)
2020: Key draft in terms of quality and depth.
2021: Miss playoffs draft Boucher (tenuous future as anything more than a role player)
2022: Miss playoffs and trade away 1st round pick - acquire Debrincat
2023: Miss playoffs and trade away 1st round pick - acquire Chychrun

Both Chicago and Pittsburgh made the playoffs less than two years after their most important draft. We're three and counting.

Both franchises won Cups 5 years after their first franchise skater is drafted (goalies take longer). Tkachuk sadly hasn't even played a playoff game in his first 5 years (not saying this is on him).

While I like our core a lot, our management group has done a very poor job of surrounding them with quality support players.

We've got a nice top 6 F right now and a very good top 4 D but anyone who says this rebuild has been successful is ignoring history and in denial about the failures of our organization. The future could still be bright but it needs new leadership.

I want Pittsburgh or Chicago for us, not Buffalo or even Toronto.

You know what those teams did (even Buffalo and Toronto)? They won the lottery. They drafted 1st overall. Plus Pittsburgh got lucky with Malkin 2nd overall who would have gone 1st any other year. Not only that, but they were also under a lottery system where if you finished last, you drafted no worse than 2nd overall.

None of the picks that originally belonged to us won the lottery, and none of them ever were higher than 4th overall (Tkachuk and Byram). The only reason we drafted 3rd to get Stutzle, is because Dorion made a trade for that pick.

 

[LuckyPierre]

I agree with (almost) everything here. The only thing I don't agree with is the whole "small center" problem. They're all 6ft+. Also, Kastelic is showing lots of potential as the big body 4th line center. Easy to forget he was a 23yr old rookie last year. Otherwise, there's also Greig who's a natural center. We're very deep down the middle.

Otherwise, you're right, there's still some finishing touches to put on the team. Fortunately, finding a 7th defenseman and bottom 6 wingers is the easiest thing to find. The off-season hasn't even started yet. Plus, there's always the trade deadline if we're in a playoff position.

The 'small centre' concern of mine is an isolated opinion, I understand that. I may be reaching, as they are realistically average sized. But none of the centres in our top 9 play 'big guy' hockey, and that's the type of hockey that prevails come spring time.

Pinto and Norris can't, really. They both have major shoulder concerns, so it wouldn't be reasonable to expect that they play heavy hockey, in spite of the fact that Pinto has a decently big frame. And Stutzle - he flies around with reckless abandon, which increases wear and tear.

Grieg is interesting, as he does play 'big guy' hockey, but is not built for it. Kastelic is a locomotive, but hasn't demonstrated an ability to be a versatile piece and slot up if any of our other centres are down for extended periods of time.

So I'll put it this way - our top 3 centres are not 'hard' to play against, in the context of a 7 game series, with the way the roster is currently constructed.

 

[JD1]

For all the talk of the rebuild and patience, let's look at the timeline of the two most recent "successful" full tear down / tank rebuilds: Pittsburgh and Chicago.

Pittsburgh:

2003: Bottomed out to finish last in the league and acquired core piece MAF.
2005: Key draft for obvious reasons
2006-07: made playoffs
2008-09: Win first of three Cups.

Four years after scrapping it all to rebuild they were in the playoffs and two years after that they won the Cup.

Chicago:
2006: Went into rebuild mode. 3rd last. First franchise piece acquired.
2007: Key draft for obvious reasons
2008-09: Made playoffs and went to WCF.
2009-10: Win first of 3 Cups.

Four years after sucking and getting Toews they won the Stanley Cup. Two years after their key draft they made the WCF.


Now Ottawa:
2018: Acquire captain who joins Chabot (2015) as foundational pieces.
2019: Tank continues but no 1st round pick (could have been Byram, Cozens or Seider)
2020: Key draft in terms of quality and depth.
2021: Miss playoffs draft Boucher (tenuous future as anything more than a role player)
2022: Miss playoffs and trade away 1st round pick - acquire Debrincat
2023: Miss playoffs and trade away 1st round pick - acquire Chychrun

Both Chicago and Pittsburgh made the playoffs less than two years after their most important draft. We're three and counting.

Both franchises won Cups 5 years after their first franchise skater is drafted (goalies take longer). Tkachuk sadly hasn't even played a playoff game in his first 5 years (not saying this is on him).

While I like our core a lot, our management group has done a very poor job of surrounding them with quality support players.

We've got a nice top 6 F right now and a very good top 4 D but anyone who says this rebuild has been successful is ignoring history and in denial about the failures of our organization. The future could still be bright but it needs new leadership.

I want Pittsburgh or Chicago for us, not Buffalo or even Toronto.

Those are two great examples of building up a new core.

But there's some key differences. Crosby and Malkin are on best all time lists with Crosby in most top 10 all time lists. Kane is probably the best American player ever.

On our end, our best two players are from 2020. Tkachuk is the captain and he'll be a playoff warrior but Stuetzle and Sanderson will make or break this. Chabot isn't imo foundational in any way. He was a transition piece from Karlsson to Sanderson. He's 40 more below par games in the first half next season from becoming a huge boat anchor contract.

I expect playoffs this season and serious contenders for several after that

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

it was incredible to see a movement; form, flourish and act.

I am proud of it. Activism that worked.

Now we will have to endure the counter-counter movement. Spin will be at an all time high for the next few years. And it will be insufferable.

It really was great to see people come together like that. I know it wasn't everyone's cup of tea, but I thought it did well to hammer the point home. And I feel like everything that's transpired since his passing, has justified that movement, so I'm not sure what spin they can put on it that means much. Miserable sick old man needed to move on and let someone with the desire and motivation and positive outlook take over.

 

[JD1]

I mean the sens have had a successful rebuild in this franchises history. We literally witnessed it. They didnt win a cup but they built a perennial contender that made the playoffs for 11 straight seasons. I have a feeling most fans that post here didnt witness it considering how many dont think picks are valuable at this point. That version of the sens never burned assets they continually drafted until Muckler got here and thats when it ended. You need a constant stream of draft and developed talent to continue to be competitive. This management group has already moved away from that and they havent even made the playoffs. I cant believe with how many massive losses Dorion has had on the trade front anyone thinks he has succeeded. There is a very long list of misses to go with 6 years of not making the playoffs and having a bottom 10 prospect pool. That is without a doubt a massive fail.

People need to rethink or reset regarding making the playoffs

Yes we made it 11 years straight. There were 26 teams when that run started.

Last season we had 86 points and missed the playoffs. The first year of the 11 you referenced we had 83 points and made the playoffs. Twice in that run we made it with 94 points. Today, that's iffy. 50/50 you get in with 94.

Next season should be playoffs or house cleaning

 

[Micklebot]

People need to rethink or reset regarding making the playoffs

Yes we made it 11 years straight. There were 26 teams when that run started.

Last season we had 86 points and missed the playoffs. The first year of the 11 you referenced we had 83 points and made the playoffs. Twice in that run we made it with 94 points. Today, that's iffy. 50/50 you get in with 94.

Next season should be playoffs or house cleaning

I don't necessarily disagree with the point you're making, but I don't think you can compare the cutoff from a time before loser pts and shootouts, 83 pts was from a time where if you lost the game you got zero pts regardless of whether it happened in OT or not (and there was no shootout).

 

[Knave]

I don't necessarily disagree with the point you're making, but I don't think you can compare the cutoff from a time before loser pts and shootouts, 83 pts was from a time where if you lost the game you got zero pts regardless of whether it happened in OT or not (and there was no shootout).

And those would be winner points.

So a more accurate comparison would be to divvy up the ties to get those wins.

ROW is not a great comparison because it only filters out shootouts but why not use that?

Compare that 1998 team first year vs the 2016-2017 team - 34 wins vs 38 ROWs

4 out of 15 ties could have been OT wins, no?

Not asking for miracles here. Just that we stop having the third longest active playoff drought in the league. Just don't want a GM whose comparables when you look at the numbers are Mike Milbury and expansion GMs like Doug MacLean who started with zero unlike Dorion starting with a future Selke candidate and Stanley Cup champion captain along with a 2x Norris Trophy winner. Just don't want our comparables to be Buffalo, Edmonton, Toronto - three teams mocked for failing to rebuild. Or Carolina that was about to relocate before a new owner swooped in. We have a longer playoff drought than Arizona for anyone who wants to excuse Dorion for the budget or the lack of a front office staff. A team where the majority of salaries go to players who do not play for them. A team that takes on all the bad cap hits to make the floor. A team that drafts based on central scouting because a large scouting staff is not in the budget.

 

[DueDiligence]

They managed to draft Malkin 2nd overall and Crosby 1st overall.

We got Daigle, Phillips?

1st OA luck of the draw. 1996 Senators get Phillips 1997 Bruins get Joe Thornton
2004 is Ovie, 2005 it's Sid and in 2006 the Blues luck out with Erik Johnson.
In in the last 6 years some good players but nothing close to Connor Bedard.

 

[swiftwin]

And those would be winner points.

So a more accurate comparison would be to divvy up the ties to get those wins.

ROW is not a great comparison because it only filters out shootouts but why not use that?

Compare that 1998 team first year vs the 2016-2017 team - 34 wins vs 38 ROWs

4 out of 15 ties could have been OT wins, no?

Not asking for miracles here. Just that we stop having the third longest active playoff drought in the league. Just don't want a GM whose comparables when you look at the numbers are Mike Milbury and expansion GMs like Doug MacLean who started with zero unlike Dorion starting with a future Selke candidate and Stanley Cup champion captain along with a 2x Norris Trophy winner. Just don't want our comparables to be Buffalo, Edmonton, Toronto - three teams mocked for failing to rebuild. Or Carolina that was about to relocate before a new owner swooped in. We have a longer playoff drought than Arizona for anyone who wants to excuse Dorion for the budget or the lack of a front office staff. A team where the majority of salaries go to players who do not play for them. A team that takes on all the bad cap hits to make the floor. A team that drafts based on central scouting because a large scouting staff is not in the budget.

You keep repeating that "we started with so much". But those other teams had lottery wins and top 3 picks. Not a single one of the draft picks that originally belonged to us has won the lottery or finished top 3 since 1996. The two times we got a top 3 pick (Spezza & Stutzle) was because of a steal of a trade by our GM.

Not only that, but we also had to contend with a harsher lottery that means the last place had the highest odds to draft 4th overall. It didn't used to be that way.

 

[Beech]

You keep repeating that "we started with so much". But those other teams had lottery wins and top 3 picks. Not a single one of the draft picks that originally belonged to us has won the lottery or finished top 3 since 1996. The two times we got a top 3 pick (Spezza & Stutzle) was because of a steal of a trade by our GM.

Not only that, but we also had to contend with a harsher lottery that means the last place had the highest odds to draft 4th overall. It didn't used to be that way.

Boston will experience a regression.. severe. 100 points max
TO..a MILD regression, due to the off season issues and Mathew's contract. Plus Giordano is finsihed
Tampa..regression
Florida...regression

Carolina..about the same
NJ...about the same
NYR about the same
NYI about the same

Detroit. Minor improvement
Buffalo..minor improvement
Montreal...no improvement

Pitts.... no improvement
Wahsington...no improvement
Columbus...minor improvement


95 points should be easy... in fact, a hot start could mean 99-100.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

That is pure bullshit.

No one has a hate-on for PD other than the haters.

PD was highly touted last season. We'll see what happens this season.

Bullish Senators fans bask in the sunlight of the 'Summer of Pierre' Dorion

Ottawa will be a fascinating season-long watch to see how a bevy of new faces can come together as a competitive unit after GM Pierre Dorion's busy off-season.

www.sportsnet.ca

Poulin: The summer of Pierre was very efficient

NHL analyst Dave Poulin on his summer and cats Fred and Ted, spilt-squad games, Jake Sanderson, on the summer of Pierre, Leafs goaltending and the Canadiens naming Nick Suzuki captain.

www.tsn.ca

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

You know what those teams did (even Buffalo and Toronto)? They won the lottery. They drafted 1st overall. Plus Pittsburgh got lucky with Malkin 2nd overall who would have gone 1st any other year. Not only that, but they were also under a lottery system where if you finished last, you drafted no worse than 2nd overall.

None of the picks that originally belonged to us won the lottery, and none of them ever were higher than 4th overall (Tkachuk and Byram). The only reason we drafted 3rd to get Stutzle, is because Dorion made a trade for that pick.

when a GM trades for, and acquires a draft pick, it becomes the property of the team it now belongs to. There is nothing negative about acquiring a first round draft pick… it is a positive thing… and Pierre acquired a first round draft pick, in a trade, and it was a huge WIN for Ottawa.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

And those would be winner points.

correction, when you lose a game in OT or a SO, the point is a loser point, because you lost the game in OT or a SO.

The winning team, in OT and a SO is awarded a second point… that is a winners point.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

You keep repeating that "we started with so much". But those other teams had lottery wins and top 3 picks. Not a single one of the draft picks that originally belonged to us has won the lottery or finished top 3 since 1996. The two times we got a top 3 pick (Spezza & Stutzle) was because of a steal of a trade by our GM.

Not only that, but we also had to contend with a harsher lottery that means the last place had the highest odds to draft 4th overall. It didn't used to be that way.

why do you frame a player, drafted with a pick acquired in a trade, in a negative light?

It does not matter how a team acquires a pick, it is as equal as any pick they have.

Is Tim Stutzle a second class Senator because the draft pick used was acquired in a trade?

You seem so obsessed with this pick acquired in a trade, as if we should be ashamed of it or something

 

[JD1]

I don't necessarily disagree with the point you're making, but I don't think you can compare the cutoff from a time before loser pts and shootouts, 83 pts was from a time where if you lost the game you got zero pts regardless of whether it happened in OT or not (and there was no shootout).

Look at the standings from those days and the number of ties. We finished one game over 500 and made the playoffs. That doesn't happen today

I've seen several references recently to historical situations without acknowledging that historically it was far easier to actually make the playoffs

 

[Ice-Tray]

For all the talk of the rebuild and patience, let's look at the timeline of the two most recent "successful" full tear down / tank rebuilds: Pittsburgh and Chicago.

Pittsburgh:

2003: Bottomed out to finish last in the league and acquired core piece MAF.
2005: Key draft for obvious reasons
2006-07: made playoffs
2008-09: Win first of three Cups.

Four years after scrapping it all to rebuild they were in the playoffs and two years after that they won the Cup.

Chicago:
2006: Went into rebuild mode. 3rd last. First franchise piece acquired.
2007: Key draft for obvious reasons
2008-09: Made playoffs and went to WCF.
2009-10: Win first of 3 Cups.

Four years after sucking and getting Toews they won the Stanley Cup. Two years after their key draft they made the WCF.


Now Ottawa:
2018: Acquire captain who joins Chabot (2015) as foundational pieces.
2019: Tank continues but no 1st round pick (could have been Byram, Cozens or Seider)
2020: Key draft in terms of quality and depth.
2021: Miss playoffs draft Boucher (tenuous future as anything more than a role player)
2022: Miss playoffs and trade away 1st round pick - acquire Debrincat
2023: Miss playoffs and trade away 1st round pick - acquire Chychrun

Both Chicago and Pittsburgh made the playoffs less than two years after their most important draft. We're three and counting.

Both franchises won Cups 5 years after their first franchise skater is drafted (goalies take longer). Tkachuk sadly hasn't even played a playoff game in his first 5 years (not saying this is on him).

While I like our core a lot, our management group has done a very poor job of surrounding them with quality support players.

We've got a nice top 6 F right now and a very good top 4 D but anyone who says this rebuild has been successful is ignoring history and in denial about the failures of our organization. The future could still be bright but it needs new leadership.

I want Pittsburgh or Chicago for us, not Buffalo or even Toronto.

Okay, but we weren’t able to draft 1-3 generational talents, nor were we able to spend.

Chicago is a stretch given the lottery winning and the quality of player Kane ended up being, but still, our kids could perhaps close the gap.

But Pittsburg? The drafted one of he best players ever, and the followed that up with another 2 perhaps 3 hall of fame players. They also started their rebuild with Mario playing with Crosby.

Those are some high standards.

We’re going to build slow like buffalo has done this (again), a bit like TO, and like Detroit currently is. When you don’t ever win he draft lottery, in fact lose the lottery each time since we always moved back, it’s hard to get that generational player that can kick start a rebuild.

The way we’re is the only way for a small market team on a budget no matter who is the GM. PD may suck, but Stevie is doing the same thing Given how they have also been screwed by the draft lotto.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Okay, but we weren’t able to draft 1-3 generational talents, nor were we able to spend.

Chicago is a stretch given the lottery winning and the quality of player Kane ended up being, but still, our kids could perhaps close the gap.

But Pittsburg? The drafted one of he best players ever, and the followed that up with another 2 perhaps 3 hall of fame players. They also started their rebuild with Mario playing with Crosby.

Those are some high standards.

We’re going to build slow like buffalo has done this (again), a bit like TO, and like Detroit currently is. Htime since we always moved back, it’s hard to get that generational player that can kick start a rebuild.

The way we’re is the only way for a small market team on a budget no matter who is the GM. PD may suck, but Stevie is doing the same thing Given how they have also been screwed by the draft lotto.

Okay, but we weren’t able to draft 1-3 generational talents, nor were we able to spend.

Chicago is a stretch given the lottery winning and the quality of player Kane ended up being, but still, our kids could perhaps close the gap.

But Pittsburg? The drafted one of he best players ever, and the followed that up with another 2 perhaps 3 hall of fame players. They also started their rebuild with Mario playing with Crosby.

Those are some high standards.

We’re going to build slow like buffalo has done this (again), a bit like TO, and like Detroit currently is. When you don’t ever win he draft lottery, in fact lose the lottery each time since we always moved back, it’s hard to get that generational player that can kick start a rebuild.

The way we’re is the only way for a small market team on a budget no matter who is the GM. PD may suck, but Stevie is doing the same thing Given how they have also been screwed by the draft lotto.

you’re correct, Ottawa has never selected first overall by virtue of a lottery, but they did win the (third) lottery in 2020, and retained the third overall pick.

A team can’t rely ion winning the first overall pick, they have to scout and draft/trade better than other teams to build a solid team capable of qualifying for the playoffs, and be able to play playoff hockey.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

You know what those teams did (even Buffalo and Toronto)? They won the lottery. They drafted 1st overall. Plus Pittsburgh got lucky with Malkin 2nd overall who would have gone 1st any other year. Not only that, but they were also under a lottery system where if you finished last, you drafted no worse than 2nd overall.

None of the picks that originally belonged to us won the lottery, and none of them ever were higher than 4th overall (Tkachuk and Byram). The only reason we drafted 3rd to get Stutzle, is because Dorion made a trade for that pick.

We're extremely lucky we didn't win the 2020 lottery. I'll take that as a win.

But keep the excuses coming.

 

[Micklebot]

Look at the standings from those days and the number of ties. We finished one game over 500 and made the playoffs. That doesn't happen today

I've seen several references recently to historical situations without acknowledging that historically it was far easier to actually make the playoffs

It's certainly going to be a little harder as we add more teams and stay with 16 in the playoffs, but making the playoffs as a 500 team no longer happens because there are no ties, if Half those 15 ties from the season you're referencing became wins, and the other half or OT/SO loses, that 83 pts season becomes a 90.5 pts season, Colorado made the playoffs with 90 pts in 2019, Minnesota made it with 87 in 2016, so it does still happen.

To be honest, a lot has been done to introduce parity in the leagues, so we don't see the dynasties as much, and, at least in theory, upward progression should be easier too as the cap pulls everyone towards the center. We now longer have NYR and Toronto spending 100 mil while the Wild and the sens were spending closer to 30.

 

[Ice-Tray]

We're extremely lucky we didn't win the 2020 lottery. I'll take that as a win.

But keep the excuses coming.

Think about it; it’s been rumoured that we wanted Stu first anyways. If we had won the lottery we would have had the first and third pick.

Maybe we’re happy with Stu and Sandy, maybe we take Stu and Byfield, or maybe we take laf and get Stu at 3.

Or maybe we trade down to 5, get a prime asset from A team that wants one of the top 3 guys, and we take Sandy anyways.

Your point is bad, it’s always better to win the lottery because at WORST we could have picked the same guys and gotten a primo asset by letting one of the other top 5 teams move up.

Now imagine that teams like NJ, Buffalo, and Edmonton won the lottery several times, and Pitts picked first or second several times too.

The real parallel for us will be Stevie Y and his Detroit red wings that have been screwed like we have at the draft, and also had players to trade away for assets to start their rebuild. They chose not to trade their tops guys for the most part.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I'm not going to get hung up on how long we've missed the playoffs. Rebuilds are tricky, in that you have to be damned lucky to hit rock bottom and get a great pick in a superior draft year. Pittsburgh "winning" Crosby and getting Malkin made their rebuild. That is mostly luck.

At the same time...aside from the Karlsson trade being being backdoor successful getting a lotto pick, the trades we have made moving our older core have been poor. Dorion tends to overpay for guys he wants, and underwhelm on returns. Is it all Dorion? No. We had budget limitations and the stigma of being small market Ottawa. But, part of it is Dorion.

Yeah, the big UFAs are too soft and snotty to come to lil ole Ottawa. And yes, a few of the American players are soft as 3 ply charmin. All they want is a big payday and anonymity...seems a Cup isn't high on their priority list. And all honestly...screw players like that. Those aren't the type who will get battered and bruised to fight and claw back from a 3-1 series deficit to win anything anyways. But we should be able to do better than getting mediocre players in their mid 30s who have no other options.

We're going to see a new GM at the helm in a year...two at the most. I think we all know that. Personally, I do hope Dorion catches on as a head (amateur) scout again with some team. He was excellent at that position. And there's no shame of being the head scout of an NHL team. Not sure why it's always GM or bust with so many folks.

 

[bert]

People need to rethink or reset regarding making the playoffs

Yes we made it 11 years straight. There were 26 teams when that run started.

Last season we had 86 points and missed the playoffs. The first year of the 11 you referenced we had 83 points and made the playoffs. Twice in that run we made it with 94 points. Today, that's iffy. 50/50 you get in with 94.

Next season should be playoffs or house cleaning

There are loser points now you can't compare those eras. Ottawa had 8 o.t loses.... thats 78 point. The 11 year run the team was built through the draft with patience. There wasn't even a salary cap. Stop with the excuses and straw man arguments. Its time for new organizational leadership. I don't think anyone directly hired by Melnyk should be around.

 

[bert]

Look at the standings from those days and the number of ties. We finished one game over 500 and made the playoffs. That doesn't happen today

I've seen several references recently to historical situations without acknowledging that historically it was far easier to actually make the playoffs

The sens were 3 games under .500 this year they were worse....