Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[BankStreetParade]

How about something a little closer to home then?

That Toronto Maple Leafs team you all had fun mocking back in the mid to late 2000s had a 7 year drought. We're headed into year 7.

Even Toronto had the decency and sense to change GMs.

So you've already assigned this upcoming season as a failure before they've even started? Otherwise, I'm not really sure how the comparison holds if the streak ends this year.

 

[swiftwin]

It's far too early to give up top ~10 picks. We need those guys unless we're making a real push.

But.... but.... we have the worst playoff drought in 150 years!

 

[JD1]

I wasn't including '17, I'm including this upcoming year. We weren't in a rebuild in 17. I'm not sure how I missed 28 and 26, probably because I was looking for top picks given our rebuilding status. So 7 picks in 6 years for a scorched earth rebuild. Still, only 3 of which were ours. It's far too early to give up top ~10 picks. We need those guys unless we're making a real push.

Um, you're still not counting right. 7 in 5 if you exclude 2017.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

How do you define on ice success? Do you have to make the playoffs? Win a playoff round? Win the Stanley Cup?

Yes, make the playoffs will be the true indicator this team is finding some "success". Then win a round. Then compete for high stakes even if they don't ultimately win it all.

So far, I think we took a baby step last year with some ups and downs, and also exposed some areas of concern in depth, goaltending, and ability to stay healthy that makes me very interested to see if the fixes give confidence they can make it in.

I know you are likely to classify it differently, but I certainly don't know how you land at such a definitive statement. If this team misses again next year, all the talk is going to be what's wrong with the rebuild and how does the new regime get it back on track.

another trouble maker, I see

Knave is not enough.

(JOKE)

I like to think of myself as devils advocate lol. My takes aren't always right, but I like to land in the middle more than most do imo.

 

[Beech]

Yes, make the playoffs will be the true indicator this team is finding some "success". Then win a round. Then compete for high stakes even if they don't ultimately win it all.

So far, I think we took a baby step last year with some ups and downs, and also exposed some areas of concern in depth, goaltending, and ability to stay healthy that makes me very interested to see if the fixes give confidence they can make it in.

I know you are likely to classify it differently, but I certainly don't know how you land at such a definitive statement. If this team misses again next year, all the talk is going to be what's wrong with the rebuild and how does the new regime get it back on track.

I like to think of myself as devils advocate lol. My takes aren't always right, but I like to land in the middle more than most do imo.

no, you are reveling in this.. you come in throw a couple of lefts and rights and poof.. Off you go.

trouble maker, enfant terrible.

 

[JD1]

How about something a little closer to home then?

That Toronto Maple Leafs team you all had fun mocking back in the mid to late 2000s had a 7 year drought. We're headed into year 7.

Even Toronto had the decency and sense to change GMs.

The context of that was a little different though.

You can argue we were trying to make the playoffs in 2018 and 2023. Not sure you'd get full agreement on 2023 but there's at least a debate to be had. The years in between we we're not trying to make the playoffs.

I don't think that was the case for the 7 year Toronto streak

 

[Knave]

So you've already assigned this upcoming season as a failure before they've even started? Otherwise, I'm not really sure how the comparison holds if the streak ends this year.

I thought this was the goal though? Keep Dorion employed at all costs including the playoffs. Am I wrong?

The point being Toronto was mocked relentlessly throughout their drought. They fired Ferguson JR. They fired Brian Burke. They didn't wait around to see if they could by some fluke, stroke of luck, lack of injuries make it in year 6 or 7 like we seem to be doing.

 

[swiftwin]

Yes, make the playoffs will be the true indicator this team is finding some "success". Then win a round. Then compete for high stakes even if they don't ultimately win it all.

So far, I think we took a baby step last year with some ups and downs, and also exposed some areas of concern in depth, goaltending, and ability to stay healthy that makes me very interested to see if the fixes give confidence they can make it in.

I know you are likely to classify it differently, but I certainly don't know how you land at such a definitive statement. If this team misses again next year, all the talk is going to be what's wrong with the rebuild and how does the new regime get it back on track.

Absolutely right. I don't think anyone can deny that rebuild is on the right track.

My point is that the "rebuild ending" is not a binary thing. It's a gradual thing. When do you declare the rebuild over? Some would say when the sell-off is done, some when the team is on a clear upward trend, some when you make the playoffs, some when you win a playoff round, some when you win the cup.

No matter how you slice it, few can argue that the rebuild isn't on the right track.

 

[swiftwin]

I thought this was the goal though? Keep Dorion employed at all costs including the playoffs. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

no, you are reveling in this.. you come in throw a couple of lefts and rights and poof.. Off you go.

trouble maker, enfant terrible.

Lol, you're too funny man. I said Devils Advocate.

Absolutely right. I don't think anyone can deny that rebuild is on the right track.

My point is that the "rebuild ending" is not a binary thing. It's a gradual thing. When do you declare the rebuild over? Some would say when the sell-off is done, some when the team is on a clear upward trend, some when you make the playoffs, some when you win a playoff round, some when you win the cup.

No matter how you slice it, few can argue that the rebuild isn't on the right track.

I think you can say it's both on the right track, and it's had some bumps in the road, and there's some areas of concern that need attention before success should be expected. Goaltending is a big one as it's been a mess mostly. Depth is going to have to improve, regardless where that comes from be it shaking injuries or players internally or externally.

Being on the right track is great, I don't disagree with that even if I think the last couple years could have gone better, but it means little until they do something of note, like make it in for a round. At least in the context of that definitive statement that this is a resounding success. We're still in a stage where this thing could never properly get off the ground and fly, because the work is not done. We'll simply have built a beautiful bird on the ground without wings.

Dorion has a chance this summer to round things out as he likes. Lets see where it goes.

 

[Beech]

The context of that was a little different though.

You can argue we were trying to make the playoffs in 2018 and 2023. Not sure you'd get full agreement on 2023 but there's at least a debate to be had. The years in between we we're not trying to make the playoffs.

I don't think that was the case for the 7 year Toronto streak

a professional team, which charges hundred per ticket and a fortune to park and a fortune for concessions.

Receives million in TV money, which is directly for the advertizers paying. Which is us..

was not trying to win.. the NHL which receives money from gambling. Was okay with a team not trying to win?

SO, the Senators will refund the ~ 140 Million USD a year they received from all sources.

So a fan who went to a game in 208/2019, went without knowing the Sens were tanking.. So he/she assumed, hoped the Sens would win, try to win. But in reality they were throwing it. they went home sad, only to know find out, the fix was in?

When did the fix stop? you seem to suggest that it contiinued in 2023...

 

[Golden_Jet]

We're tied with the New York Americans (1930-1936) with six seasons of missed playoffs. And good news - we can extend our streak and continue our quest to be champions of failure.

So 30-36 is a 7 year span.
They missed 30-35

So any drought when 2 teams miss the playoffs is much worse than when 16 teams miss.

 

[Beech]

So 30-36 is a 7 year span.
They missed 30-35

So any drought when 2 teams miss the playoffs is much worse than when 16 teams miss.

Buffalo: 12 seasons out of the playoffs.. 3GMs
Detroit: 7 seasons out of the playoffs ..2 GMs
Ottawa: 6 seasons out of the playoffs.. 1 GM
Anaheim 5 seasons out of the playoffs...2 GMs
San Jose: 4 seasons out of the playoffs..2 GMs

which one stands out to you?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I'm glad we agree that the pick originally belonging to San Jose won the third pick in the 2020 lottery.

And we agree that after acquiring Josh Norris, he immediately became a Senator and the first round draft pick immediately became an Ottawa Senators draft pick (aka not another teams’ draft pick) and an Ottawa Senators draft pick … third overall, won the third 2020 draft lottery.

Just as if someone gave you a 649 lottery ticket in exchange for,your old lawnmower… the lottery ticket, bought by the person you traded the lawnmower to, is now 100% yours, and if that ticket won 100k, it was your ticket that won the lottery, not the guy who now has your lawnmower.

The NHL recognizes that Ottawa won the third draft lottery, in 2020, and Ottawa drafted third overall….. spin away, and keep saying that Ottawa has never won a draft lottery, but you are, and will always be wrong.

Here is the proof, that Ottawa won the third draft lottery, this guy is not playing for San Jose.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Buffalo: 12 seasons out of the playoffs.. 3GMs
Detroit: 7 seasons out of the playoffs ..2 GMs
Ottawa: 6 seasons out of the playoffs.. 1 GM
Anaheim 5 seasons out of the playoffs...2 GMs
San Jose: 4 seasons out of the playoffs..2 GMs

which one stands out to you?

Buffalo 12 seasons, pretty easy.
With how many first overall picks and second overall picks Buffalo had, ya that is bad, I agree. Sens never had one first or second overall, let alone multiple.

And we agree that after acquiring Josh Norris, he immediately became a Senator and the first round draft pick immediately became an Ottawa Senators draft pick (aka not another teams’ draft pick) and an Ottawa Senators draft pick … third overall, won the third 2020 draft lottery.

Just as if someone gave you a 649 lottery ticket in exchange for,your old lawnmower… the lottery ticket, bought by the person you traded the lawnmower to, is now 100% yours, and if that ticket won 100k, it was your ticket that won the lottery, not the guy who now has your lawnmower.

The NHL recognizes that Ottawa won the third draft lottery, in 2020, and Ottawa drafted third overall….. spin away, and keep saying that Ottawa has never won a draft lottery, but you are, and will always be wrong.

Here is the proof, that Ottawa won the third draft lottery, this guy is not playing for San Jose.

View attachment 719264

No the NHL recognizes it as a SJ pick won the lottery officially, Ottawa has never won a lottery in it’s history, just dropping.

when the league based the odds of a lottery ball falling, it was based on SJ tenth place odds, not Ottawa’s second place odds that year.

 

[Golden_Jet]

.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

If DeBrincat really wants an eight-year deal, then the Senators would be willing to table one today, but he won’t have those discussions.

He’ll either be back here next season or there’s a strong chance he’ll be traded. Formenton is currently on the club’s reserve list and can’t play anywhere other than Europe.
The expectation is he gets moved.

Unfortunate

DEPTH SCORING: The Senators didn’t get nearly enough scoring from their third and fourth lines. That’s an area that has to improve, which is why it makes sense to move on from Gambrell. You can address those areas by giving up future draft picks or signing unrestricted free agents. One way or another, this has to be addressed. Parker Kelly had one goal last year while Mark Kastelic was hot and cold.

No mention of 0 5v5 goal Joseph who has to be more disappointing than Kelly or Kastelic based on expectations

TOUGHNESS AND GRIT: The Senators have decided to move on from Austin Watson. They need to replace his hard-nosed style, plus he scored nine goals last season and killed penalties. You have to think they’ll look at veteran winger Corey Perry. He makes sense.

I would have liked Perry when he signed in Montreal for the league minimum in 2021. He'd be fine, not as good as in 2021 but he's not really a Watson replacement. We need more hard to play against players that can produce for sure.

DEFENCE, DEFENCE: The expectation is the club will go into next season with pairings of Thomas Chabot-Jackob Chychrun along with Jake Sanderson-Artem Zub. Brannstrom confirmed down the stretch he can be a regular and Dorion has stated that Jacob Bernard-Docker has a job to lose in training camp. Ideally, the Senators would like to bring veteran Travis Hamonic back for depth. Rookie Tyler Kleven will push a spot and there’s no question about it.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Unfortunate

No mention of 0 5v5 goal Joseph who has to be more disappointing than Kelly or Kastelic based on expectations

I would have liked Perry when he signed in Montreal for the league minimum in 2021. He'd be fine, not as good as in 2021 but he's not really a Watson replacement. We need more hard to play against players that can produce for sure.

DeBrincat
Bottom 6

He only forgot the goaltending.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

No the NHL recognizes it as a SJ pick won the lottery officially, Ottawa has never won a lottery in it’s history, just dropping.

when the league based the odds of a lottery ball falling, it was based on SJ tenth place odds, not Ottawa’s second place odds that year.

It was an Ottawa draft pick,acquired from SJ that won the Lottery.

when Bill Daley flipped over the card, to show which team selected third (by winning the third lottery in 2020) it had an Ottawa Senator’s Logo on it, not amSharks logo… ergo Ottawa won the third lottery in 2020… to say otherwise is foolish.

watch it with your own eyes

 

[Ouroboros]

DeBrincat
Bottom 6

He only forgot the goaltending.

He does discuss the goaltending...

Let’s get this out of the way: Don’t expect the Senators to acquire veteran Connor Hellebuyck from the Winnipeg Jets. If he doesn’t want to sign an extension there, he’s likely not going to want to come here.

The options are limited, but there are some goalies available.

The club could look at UFAs Frederik Anderson (Carolina), Semyon Varlamov (Islanders), Adin Hill (Vegas), Tristin Jarry (Pittsburgh) and Joonas Korpisalo (Los Angeles Kings).

Philadelphia’s Carter Hart and Anaheim’s John Gibson are available for trade.

Also says Julien Gauthier is not likely returning.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Bootlicker Bruce with this gem:

"People have dumped on Dorion for making this move, but nobody blamed him for being aggressive at the time and he should have no regrets for trying to help this team get to the playoffs. DeBrincat scored 27 goals and finished with 66 points, but was a whopping minus-31."

I'm so glad Dorion is trying.

How can you blame him for trading a top 10 pick + more for a guy with no interest in staying when he's trying his best?

 

[Golden_Jet]

It was an Ottawa draft pick,acquired from SJ that won the Lottery.

when Bill Daley flipped over the card, to show which team selected third (by winning the third lottery in 2020) it had an Ottawa Senator’s Logo on it, not amSharks logo… ergo Ottawa won the third lottery in 2020… to say otherwise is foolish.

watch it with your own eyes

Wrong ,
when they determine how many balls to put in, it’s based on Sam Jose’s finishing position, not Ottawas finishing position.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

He does discuss the goaltending...



Also says Julien Gauthier is not likely returning.

Woah woah woah. You expected me to actually click the link and read the rest?

Lol thanks for the clarification though. Interesting that Gauthier won't be back. Would have thought he would be.

Bootlicker Bruce with this gem:



I'm so glad Dorion is trying.

How can you blame him for trading a top 10 pick + more for a guy with no interest in staying when he's trying his best?

Lol, wtf. Get that nose out of there you dirty dog.

 

[swiftwin]

And we agree that after acquiring Josh Norris, he immediately became a Senator and the first round draft pick immediately became an Ottawa Senators draft pick (aka not another teams’ draft pick) and an Ottawa Senators draft pick … third overall, won the third 2020 draft lottery.

Just as if someone gave you a 649 lottery ticket in exchange for,your old lawnmower… the lottery ticket, bought by the person you traded the lawnmower to, is now 100% yours, and if that ticket won 100k, it was your ticket that won the lottery, not the guy who now has your lawnmower.

The NHL recognizes that Ottawa won the third draft lottery, in 2020, and Ottawa drafted third overall….. spin away, and keep saying that Ottawa has never won a draft lottery, but you are, and will always be wrong.

Here is the proof, that Ottawa won the third draft lottery, this guy is not playing for San Jose.

View attachment 719264

Yes. I agree with you. All these things happened because Dorion traded Karlsson to San Jose, and in return got their 1st round pick in 2020 (among other things).

Thank you for confirming this for the 4th time in this thread.

Much like how we traded Yashin to the NY Islanders and got a 2nd overall pick from the Islanders, which we used to select Jason Spezza.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Yes. I agree with you. All these things happened because Dorion traded Karlsson to San Jose, and in return got their 1st round pick in 2020 (among other things).

Thank you for confirming this for the 4th time in this thread.