Golden_Jet
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- Sep 21, 2005
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Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)
- Thread starter AchtzehnBaby
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Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
1) I wasn't as harsh as others on the Duchene trade, I thought it was a good move to upgrade from Turris (who had a really sneaky injury that reduced his efficiency longevity). That 1st was not supposed to be that risky after the 2016-17 season but we underestimated how banged up the guys were (MacArthur done, Methot, Karlsson, Ryan, Phaneuf, Brassard, etc). We had some pretty big holes in the roster (a top-4 D-man and MacArthur/Ryan never replaced in the top-6) so everything fell apart after that Karlsson-Hoffman fiasco
I'm not blaming Dorion that much for the Duchene saga but the return for him ends up abysmal. Would have needed a prospect to make it and a better pick than Thompson... that would have salvaged a big part of the deal
San Jose falling was not 100% lucky, that team was getting older and older (like Pens and Caps now) so it was about "time". Luckily though, San Jose made a really big mistake AFTER the trade, which was to let Pavelski go. I even said it was very likely that they'd miss the playoffs but expected something like 10th OA, not 3rd OA. All after the trade though. You think that Dorion thought "yes I will get a lottery pick back in that trade!" ? The pick result couple with the comments on Norris makes you see that there was some luck involved but that doesn't change anything : it was an homerun trade
2) lol at the stuff you're saying here... I have absolutely nothing personal against Dorion, I actually said multiple times that he looks like a cool guy. This is purely from a GM of my favorite team perspective. If his name was Pierre Jean-Jacques, it would be the exact same thing.
Where did I have any double standards? In your mind, I have what you ASSUME I have, that doesn't make it a reality, as evidenced in the point #1 for example. Just need to listen carefully without BIASES
3) "the core Dorion built" is an easy and lazy argument. Anybody could have built something good by finishing at the bottom for years. All you need to do is cumulate draft picks and make the best choices possible. But of course you need a good scouting department for that, so good on Dorion for not destroying the one his predecessor built I guess.
If it was just that, then yes Dorion would have done an excellent job and the rebuild length would be totally normal BUT and it's the BUT that some of you have a pretty hard time to figure out (denial), the rebuild started with that in bank :
Erik Karlsson (27 y/o)
Mark Stone (25 y/o)
Matt Duchene (27 y/o)
JG Pageau (25 y/o)
Mike Hoffman (28 y/o)
Ryan Dzingel (25 y/o)
Derrick Brassard (30 y/o)
Cody Ceci (24 y/o)
Thomas Chabot (21 y/o)
Drake Batherson (19 y/o)
Alex Formenton (18 y/o)
Nick Paul (22 y/o)
Colin White (21 y/o)
And several more prospects with potential (Logan Brown, Wolanin, Jaros, Chapik, Daccord, etc). Some could have been used in trades to upgrade some assets.
3b) Yeah Giroux needed to think there was hope but stars were aligned for him to sign here... come on
4) I have not much to say about Tkachuk's situation as I don't follow contract negotiations much, way too many assumptions and hypotheticals. That contract looked risky at first but looks like it'll be a good one so good on Dorion, neer really criticized outside of Brady missing the whole camp and the first 3 games (like we could afford that lol).
One thing I and some others have criticized though is that Dorion doesn't seem to put internal deadlines... This should been resolved way before...
5) Another good move By Dorion, banking on potential but in that case it was obvious. Great contract. Again, not something I have complained about, au contraire. But as some posters argue, signing RFAs to long term contracts that will make them and their family rich for life is not the hardest part...
He did missed out completely on Colin White's though that I have tried to defend for a while. He missed out badly on some other contracts too, like that horrible Condon deal that I criticized the moment it was made.
6) But keep going on! I asked you to make a list of good moves and you named Karlsson and 2 RFA contracts paid 8+ millions?
7) lol as if the million REASONS why we criticize Dorion were POINTLESS
Trading Paul + Brown + cap space (for another good 2-way forward) + Gustavsson for DeBrincat + Joseph + Gambrell + Talbot + 4th was a good move I guess?
Mark Stones Spleen
Trouba's elbow
I'm not even anti-PD and if you look at my posts, I'm okay with him returning (as long as he gets some help and a new coach).
But top draft picks aren't to be traded for short term help coming out of a rebuild if you don't make the playoffs. You're 100% incorrect on the part about it being short-sighted, it's the entirely the other way around.
You need top end draft picks to keep the system going and they fill in holes on their ELCs when they're ready. By trading your picks now and not even getting into the playoffs, you're likely going to continue to trade 1st rounders for additional help to make the push, or If you save those picks for yourself, they won't even be in the NHL until your big boys only have a couple years left on their contracts.
Those are trades that needed to happen next year. That way, two top picks can actually be ready to play during your team's prime years. Particularly when your cupboard is completely bare.
6 years of being a garbage team and we've only drafted 5 times in the first round, only 3 of which were our own picks. Full scorched rebuilds shouldn't have 5 first round picks in 6 years.
swiftwin
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People keep saying "Tanking is so easy, any GM could do it" when there's a ton of evidence around the league that it's not "easy". Most teams flounder for years when rebuilding/tanking. In fact, nobody has responded to my question: Has any team done a scorched earth rebuild in 6 years without any of the team's original picks winning the lottery? I'm not aware of any.1) I wasn't as harsh as others on the Duchene trade, I thought it was a good move to upgrade from Turris (who had a really sneaky injury that reduced his efficiency longevity). That 1st was not supposed to be that risky after the 2016-17 season but we underestimated how banged up the guys were (MacArthur done, Methot, Karlsson, Ryan, Phaneuf, Brassard, etc). We had some pretty big holes in the roster (a top-4 D-man and MacArthur/Ryan never replaced in the top-6) so everything fell apart after that Karlsson-Hoffman fiasco
I'm not blaming Dorion that much for the Duchene saga but the return for him ends up abysmal. Would have needed a prospect to make it and a better pick than Thompson... that would have salvaged a big part of the deal
San Jose falling was not 100% lucky, that team was getting older and older (like Pens and Caps now) so it was about "time". Luckily though, San Jose made a really big mistake AFTER the trade, which was to let Pavelski go. I even said it was very likely that they'd miss the playoffs but expected something like 10th OA, not 3rd OA. All after the trade though. You think that Dorion thought "yes I will get a lottery pick back in that trade!" ? The pick result couple with the comments on Norris makes you see that there was some luck involved but that doesn't change anything : it was an homerun trade
2) lol at the stuff you're saying here... I have absolutely nothing personal against Dorion, I actually said multiple times that he looks like a cool guy. This is purely from a GM of my favorite team perspective. If his name was Pierre Jean-Jacques, it would be the exact same thing.
Where did I have any double standards? In your mind, I have what you ASSUME I have, that doesn't make it a reality, as evidenced in the point #1 for example. Just need to listen carefully without BIASES
3) "the core Dorion built" is an easy and lazy argument. Anybody could have built something good by finishing at the bottom for years. All you need to do is cumulate draft picks and make the best choices possible. But of course you need a good scouting department for that, so good on Dorion for not destroying the one his predecessor built I guess.
If it was just that, then yes Dorion would have done an excellent job and the rebuild length would be totally normal BUT and it's the BUT that some of you have a pretty hard time to figure out (denial), the rebuild started with that in bank :
Erik Karlsson (27 y/o)
Mark Stone (25 y/o)
Matt Duchene (27 y/o)
JG Pageau (25 y/o)
Mike Hoffman (28 y/o)
Ryan Dzingel (25 y/o)
Derrick Brassard (30 y/o)
Cody Ceci (24 y/o)
Thomas Chabot (21 y/o)
Drake Batherson (19 y/o)
Alex Formenton (18 y/o)
Nick Paul (22 y/o)
Colin White (21 y/o)
And several more prospects with potential (Logan Brown, Wolanin, Jaros, Chapik, Daccord, etc). Some could have been used in trades to upgrade some assets.
3b) Yeah Giroux needed to think there was hope but stars were aligned for him to sign here... come on
4) I have not much to say about Tkachuk's situation as I don't follow contract negotiations much, way too many assumptions and hypotheticals. That contract looked risky at first but looks like it'll be a good one so good on Dorion, neer really criticized outside of Brady missing the whole camp and the first 3 games (like we could afford that lol).
One thing I and some others have criticized though is that Dorion doesn't seem to put internal deadlines... This should been resolved way before...
5) Another good move By Dorion, banking on potential but in that case it was obvious. Great contract. Again, not something I have complained about, au contraire. But as some posters argue, signing RFAs to long term contracts that will make them and their family rich for life is not the hardest part...
He did missed out completely on Colin White's though that I have tried to defend for a while. He missed out badly on some other contracts too, like that horrible Condon deal that I criticized the moment it was made.
6) But keep going on! I asked you to make a list of good moves and you named Karlsson and 2 RFA contracts paid 8+ millions?
7) lol as if the million REASONS why we criticize Dorion were POINTLESS
Trading Paul + Brown + cap space (for another good 2-way forward) + Gustavsson for DeBrincat + Joseph + Gambrell + Talbot + 4th was a good move I guess?
People say "Signing RFAs to good long term contracts is so easy and the bare minimum of a GM's job", yet look around the league. Dubas failed to do it in Toronto with Matthews and Marner. Treliving failed to do it with Tkachuk in Calgary. Yet both got fired and immediately re-hired by other teams.
People say "Rebuilding is so easy when you have all this talent to start with", yet conveniently ignore the fact that "all this talent" actually finished 30th in 2018. Not to mention the fact that team rarely ever get full value for their assets during the teardown part of a rebuild. Go look at what Pittsburgh got for their stars like Kovalev, Straka, Lang, Nedved, Kasparitis, etc. Sweet f*** all. Same with Chicago and Washington's stars in the early 2000's. The only thing that saved those teams was winning was winning multiple lottery picks and drafting top 2 a few times.
There's also this bizarre notion that all the good moves and all the bad moves are equal in value. Like, the Stutzle contract is one of the best contracts in the NHL in the last 20 years. Top 5 easily, up there with MacKinnon, Draisaitl and Jack Hughes. Yet, people will hold it up there as somehow equivalently offset by downgrading from a 5th round pick to a 6th round pick for half a season of Gudbranson. Or losing Balcers to waivers. Heck, even the Stepan trade, which was one of the worst, doesn't even crack the top 5 good things in terms of impact.
It's absolutely funny how the anti-Dorion crowd keeps moving the goalposts:
1. At the beginning of the rebuild, they argued Dorion was terrible at drafting because he drafted Tkachuk instead of Zadina.
2. Then a couple years later the argument was "well, it's easy to draft, but it doesn't matter if the players walk away as soon as they turn 24 and their RFA years are over" and "signing RFAs is the easy part"
3. Then when all our young players started signing 7-8 year deals, the argument was "well, it doesn't matter, because Dorion is terrible at pro scouting and terrible at trades, so he won't be able to add the players required to help improve the team after the rebuild"
4. Now that he's proven he can make good pro acquisitions like Zub, Giroux, DeBrincat, Chychrun, even Hamonic, the argument became "well, sure the rebuild is coming along well, but of course it did, he had all these amazing assets to start with, anyone could do that".
The mental gymnastics are truly astounding. It's amazing to see how deep they are willing to dig to avoid admitting they were wrong about Dorion. We could win the cup next year and people will argue that any other GM would have done it in 5 years instead of 6. Now, their last glimmer of hope is that the new owner will clean house, as if it will somehow prove them right (it doesn't).
Here is one singular goalpost: is it too much to ask we don't have a top 20 historic all time NHL playoff drought at the hands of one singular GM?
That seems to be what you and others are saying: it's okay to make the worst-all-of-all-time history books of the NHL. It's great. It's magical. It's an amazing, blessed rebuild.
At some point you people need to start asking yourselves if you are wrong. Because when the fans are wrong and the media is wrong and hockey experts are wrong and the results are wrong and everything in the universe is wrong but Dorion, Dorion is truth... maybe you're in a cult.
Beech
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swiftwin
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The bar isn't high here - lets not be historically bad. Lets not be Edmonton or Buffalo or Carolina all of whom went through several GMs because they realized what they had was not working.
The Carolina Hurricanes through relocation rumors and cap floor spending and an eventual new owner canned Ron Francis, hired Don Waddell and promptly made the playoffs. There were no high fives for Ron Francis. He had the job for 4 years. He missed the playoffs 4 years. We've missed for 6 seasons now.
Nobody asking for Dorion's time as GM to come to an end is being unreasonable.
swiftwin
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Lmao, you do realize there are only 30 teams right???? (I'm not even going to count Vegas/Seattle).
If we're top 20, that means we're not even in the upper half of the league in terms of worst playoff droughts. Plus, the number of teams making the playoffs hasn't changed since the expansion of the 90's started. It used to be way easier to make the playoffs.
People like you seem to keep dismissing the hockey experts, dismissing the agents, players, GMs, scouts that all see how well the rebuild is going. But no, the "experts" in this echo chamber think they know better. You're the one in the cult, denying reality.
Beech
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no no...enfant terrible..trouble maker..
I say, stand in a corner for 10 minutes as punishment..
when you bring logic and good arguments, No one needs that...
(All of this is joking of course)...
Golden_Jet
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- Sep 21, 2005
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This is such a confusing argument to make. So if we had made the first round of the playoffs, regardless of the outcome - ie. swept, lost in 5, 6 or 7 - the trade would have been considered a success because we qualified?
You're making too many different, unrelated arguments, and pretending it's one cohesive argument. Calling the cupboard completely bare when we have Greig, Ostapchuk, Jarventie, Boucher, Sokolov, Crookshank, Kleven, Hamara, Pettersson, Sogard and Merilainen still in the system to fill out the depth roles that need to be filled is kind of absurd.
Talking about how many times we've picked in the first round, you're upset about something that you didn't even count properly:
Here's the last 6 years:
2022 - /
2021 - #10
2020 - #3, #5, #28
2019 - #19
2018 - #4, #26
2017 - #28
We've picked 8 times in the first round over the last 6 years, not 5. We traded away our 2022 1st for Alex Debrincat, which would have been 9. But we actually have a legit asset to show for it. It's ok to be upset that we didn't make the playoffs last year even if you won't give the team the grace of injury excuses at significant positions. But the need to just make stuff up to be upset about? I don't even know what to say to that.
swiftwin
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No response? Didn't think so.
It's definitely amusing to see which posters are doubling down and which ones are finally seeing the light in terms of Dorion's ability to do the rebuild. Years ago, I was on an island around here. Now? It's probably closer to 50/50.
But keep fighting the good fight my dude! You do you!
Golden_Jet
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No response? Didn't think so.
It's definitely amusing to see which posters are doubling down and which ones are finally seeing the light in terms of Dorion's ability to do the rebuild. Years ago, I was on an island around here. Now? It's probably closer to 50/50.
But keep fighting the good fight my dude! You do you!
We're tied with the New York Americans (1930-1936) with six seasons of missed playoffs. And good news - we can extend our streak and continue our quest to be champions of failure.
Mark Stones Spleen
Trouba's elbow
You should look at how much money they spent on their roster with LTIR (hint: a lot more than we could). A team that can afford to spend 10+million more than the cap doesn't need ELCs as bad.
You may also want to consider the ability to attract FAs, we can't fill holes as easy as a team in a very desirable location to play. Makes keeping our first rounders even more important, especially when we haven't had the ability to secure our acquisitions to long term deals (hint: like Vegas has).
swiftwin
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It's definitely amusing to see people to start their posts with "I'm not anti-Dorion, but...." nowadays, it's a classic "I'm not X, but...." take.
The rebuild has been so successful that people can't openly be anti-Dorion anymore without being seen as a total nutjob.
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
Think positively since this summer appears to be a wash for any potential changes.
If he's still here next summer, then it means the team ended that playoffs missed streak.
If they don't end the streak, you can pretty much bank on him and DJ not being here.
Do you really think that? Don't they at least need to have some of that on ice success part before declaring this?
It seems there's two sides to the nuttiness. Especially with so much likely to still change this summer with Cat wanting out and goaltending being a question mark.
Here's how you know you're making a great point about something: when you need to compare them to a team from 1980, who didn't make the playoffs in a league where 16 of 21 teams qualified. That's certainly historic. Maybe pre-historic, actually.
swiftwin
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How do you define on ice success? Do you have to make the playoffs? Win a playoff round? Win the Stanley Cup?
Beech
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Mark Stones Spleen
Trouba's elbow
I wasn't including '17, I'm including this upcoming year. We weren't in a rebuild in 17. I'm not sure how I missed 28 and 26, probably because I was looking for top picks given our rebuilding status. So 7 picks in 6 years for a scorched earth rebuild. Still, only 3 of which were ours. It's far too early to give up top ~10 picks. We need those guys unless we're making a real push.
How about something a little closer to home then?
That Toronto Maple Leafs team you all had fun mocking back in the mid to late 2000s had a 7 year drought. We're headed into year 7.
Even Toronto had the decency and sense to change GMs.
Well, there used to only be 6 teams. Then it expanded rapidly and became 21 and 16 teams made the playoffs. Stayed that way for a long time. Then it slowly became harder to make the playoffs in a league where half make it and half don't.
So your 106 year example is a little dishonest
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