Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Nobody is arguing that.

All I'm saying is that Dorion had to go out and acquire that pick. Otherwise, none of our picks have won the lottery (including the one that went to Colorado in the Duchene trade).

when a team acquires a draft pick, it no longer belongs to the other team.

When EK65 was traded to SJ, their pick became Ottawa’s pick.…. And that Ottawa pick won the third lottery for the third over all pick.

So yes, Ottawa has won a draft lottery… the third lottery in 2020.

San Jose did not win the third lottery, for the third overall pick in 2020, Ottawa did.

Sorry, but it’s a fact.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Speaking of picks....a team really can't afford to have 3 first rounders in a row fizzle out or get traded away. Not when you're building, and not when you're expected to contend. You could get away with it 20 years ago before the cap, but not now when you need those cheap ELCs to fill out the roster.

Having Boucher underwhelm, and then moving the 22 and 23 picks is a big hit to the roster. We may not feel it now, but we will in the next few years.

If Dorion can at least get a 23 first (and something else) in exchange for Cat, then hopefully we can get back on track. Assuming we also draft well with that pick, of course.

If he doesn't, and things go sideways with Cat, that is a massive blow to Dorions tenure here as GM. That could be the key problem we're looking back at 5-10 years into the future with this core and why it didn't work out.

 

[bicboi64]

Speaking of picks....a team really can't afford to have 3 first rounders in a row fizzle out or get traded away. Not when you're building, and not when you're expected to contend. You could get away with it 20 years ago before the cap, but not now when you need those cheap ELCs to fill out the roster.

Makes me think...what if Boston didn't mess up 3 picks in a row with Zboril, DeBrusk, and Senyshyn. Its a scary alt universe.

 

[swiftwin]

when a team acquires a draft pick, it no longer belongs to the other team.

When EK65 was traded to SJ, their pick became Ottawa’s pick.…. And that Ottawa pick won the third lottery for the third over all pick.

So yes, Ottawa has won a draft lottery… the third lottery in 2020.

San Jose did not win the third lottery, for the third overall pick in 2020, Ottawa did.

Sorry, but it’s a fact.

View attachment 719113

It is also a fact that the pick originally belonged to San Jose, sorry but that's a fact.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

How many teams have done a full rebuild for 4 years only to then trade 2 high picks for year 5 and 6 but still not make the playoffs?

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Makes me think...what if Boston didn't mess up 3 picks in a row with Zboril, DeBrusk, and Senyshyn. Its a scary alt universe.

Yes...Barzal, Connor and Chabot.

They'd probably have an additional Cup banner to crow about right now.

 

[bert]

Speaking of picks....a team really can't afford to have 3 first rounders in a row fizzle out or get traded away. Not when you're building, and not when you're expected to contend. You could get away with it 20 years ago before the cap, but not now when you need those cheap ELCs to fill out the roster.

Having Boucher underwhelm, and then moving the 22 and 23 picks is a big hit to the roster. We may not feel it now, but we will in the next few years.

If Dorion can at least get a 23 first (and something else) in exchange for Cat, then hopefully we can get back on track. Assuming we also draft well with that pick, of course.

If he doesn't, and things go sideways with Cat, that is a massive blow to Dorions tenure here as GM. That could be the key problem we're looking back at 5-10 years into the future with this core and why it didn't work out.

I find it perplexing that this isn't just commonly accepted. Then you see even more fans that want to trade even more futures. The only scenario moving more futures makes any sense is if the team is knocking on the door of a championship. They didn't even make the playoffs.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

It is also a fact that the pick originally belonged to San Jose, sorry but that's a fact.

View attachment 719116

so we agree…. It originally belonged to SJ, and it belonged to Ottawa at the Draft Lottery, and Ottawa won The third lottery.

No matter how you want to spin this…Ottawa Won the Third 2020 draft lpottery.

I’m glad you agree.

 

[Beech]

Expectations are too high for a small market team.

Secondly, sticking by the organization doesn’t include boycotts.

you can write a PHD thesis on the two lines you wrote. It buzzed over people's heads.

1) yes, and why did Eugene not seem to know this.. He should have, and his consultants should have, seen the events of 1997-2003 unfolding. And should have filled him in.
---- they should have told him about an overpass that they refused to build and asked that it be paid by the team and recollected as a ticket surcharge.. It is why it was on the ticket as such. The hope was that it would incite anger in fans.. it did not.... it is not always easy to galvanize people into action.. ironically enough it would in 2)
--- that should have given him an idea of how much government support he can expect? One of their own, a beloved Firestone could not get land, or an overpass, or much help, Eugene should have come to understand the roadblocks
---- they should have explained to him, the economics and the changing landscape. They should have explained that population growth in Ottawa is heavily driven by immigration and they are at the financial low end. And so $200 tickets plus parking plus $20 beer is difficult. With no corporate base to pay for that, it will be difficult to get individual to do so. Even the non immigrant majority, will still be squeezed heavily when asked to dole out this dollar 50 games a year and a further 20-30 events year at the arena.

2) I am from the part of the world where we have argued whose land is it for 77 years now. Boycotting the team was a complex end result of a series of mistakes, misunderstanding and both sides not considering 1). Who is at fault becomes muddied. Who threw the first punch is harder to determine. Whose land is it, has no answer. And in some strange happening, people got galvanized into action. I wrote ice-tray on a different post...normally people preaching on street corners, get laughed at and dismissed. but every once in a while it catches on. We have had 3 significant ones the last 3400 years. This hockey one caught on.

 

[inthewings]

How many teams have done a full rebuild for 4 years only to then trade 2 high picks for year 5 and 6 but still not make the playoffs?

It's completely absurd

 

[swiftwin]

so we agree…. It originally belonged to SJ, and it belonged to Ottawa at the Draft Lottery, and Ottawa won The third lottery.

No matter how you want to spin this…Ottawa Won the Third 2020 draft lpottery.

I’m glad you agree.

I'm glad we agree that the pick originally belonging to San Jose won the third pick in the 2020 lottery.

 

[BankStreetParade]

How many teams have done a full rebuild for 4 years only to then trade 2 high picks for year 5 and 6 but still not make the playoffs?

So you wouldn't have traded firsts for Debrincat and Chychrun? I don't really get that mentality. Great, young players become available for trade and you're worried about a 7OA and 12OA when the time to pursue competitiveness is now? So short-sighted and, honestly, the kind of philosophy that has historically held back rebuilding teams from making the jump sooner.

 

[UglyPuckling]

I find it perplexing that this isn't just commonly accepted. Then you see even more fans that want to trade even more futures. The only scenario moving more futures makes any sense is if the team is knocking on the door of a championship. They didn't even make the playoffs.

Timing and doing things in the right sequence is really important and critical. They teach these principles in professional fields like systems engineering because it's critical to successful projects.

I think they accelerated the patient rebuild last year (Debrincat trade) because they were selling the team and perhaps because it could help Dorion keep his GM job.

If things worked out the way they had planned and they kept improving, last year was the last chance they might have gotten to add a young building block to their team. Impatience has its price.

 

[UglyPuckling]

So you wouldn't have traded firsts for Debrincat and Chychrun? I don't really get that mentality. Great, young players become available for trade and you're worried about a 7OA and 12OA when the time to pursue competitiveness is now? So short-sighted and, honestly, the kind of philosophy that has historically held back rebuilding teams from making the jump sooner.

Except that they didn't even make the playoffs last year anyhow and may trade away one of the pieces they acquired last summer one year later.

Maybe they just needed to add the RD and forgo the 2nd move? Does it all really have to happen in just one summer?

Anyhow, we need to await the Debrincat trade before we can really reach any conclusions. That's the missing info here (assuming he's traded).

 

[Beech]

So you wouldn't have traded firsts for Debrincat and Chychrun? I don't really get that mentality. Great, young players become available for trade and you're worried about a 7OA and 12OA when the time to pursue competitiveness is now? So short-sighted and, honestly, the kind of philosophy that has historically held back rebuilding teams from making the jump sooner.

the situation is complex.. there are two parts

1) trading a 7th and the 12th..
2) Not making the playoffs

because both occurred, it makes it hard to accept. As time marches, this team will start experiencing the potential loss of high picks. If we get a poor scenario of Tyler Boucher not making it, we could be in a situation of: 3 straights years of no HIGH #1.

and so by about 2024/2025, these missed picks could start biting the team in the behind. Which can and will rob them of cheap ELC talent, helping fill spots in a cap world.

24/25 is probably going be be year 2 of FYOUS.. had it been year 4, then the trades would have made greater sense. There may have been a cup in this town already.

Luckily Klevin will assist and who knows if Zack O does his part. If they do, then the lost picks will only have a minor impact.

 

[Hale The Villain]

So you wouldn't have traded firsts for Debrincat and Chychrun? I don't really get that mentality. Great, young players become available for trade and you're worried about a 7OA and 12OA when the time to pursue competitiveness is now? So short-sighted and, honestly, the kind of philosophy that has historically held back rebuilding teams from making the jump sooner.

Chychrun? Sure.

He's at least signed for a couple more years, plays a position of need and has ties to Ottawa.

DeBrincat was a fools gamble.

Low chance of re-signing and we didn't need another 8M forward taking up all our cap space in the first place with our issues on D.

Also the reason rebuilding teams typically don't trade high 1sts for immediate help before they establish themselves as playoff teams is because they want to sustainably grow into legitimate long-term contenders that can fill out the rest of their roster with good young players on cheap ELCs, following their top young talent getting paid the big bucks.

 

[Beech]

Chychrun? Sure.

He's at least si////

hey Hale,

I have been on here for 4 years. And a further 3 years of simply logging in as a guest and reading.

I have only now noticed the HF board sponsor.,. the two I have noticed is you and a guy who posts in the radio thread ; xxSTUxxx

what is a hfsponsor?

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

hey Hale,

I have been on here for 4 years. And a further 3 years of simply logging in as a guest and reading.

I have only now noticed the HF board sponsor.,. the two I have noticed is you and a guy who posts in the radio thread ; xxSTUxxx

what is a hfsponsor?

It's just a small contribution to the forum and gives you couple perks as a benefit.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

So you wouldn't have traded firsts for Debrincat and Chychrun? I don't really get that mentality. Great, young players become available for trade and you're worried about a 7OA and 12OA when the time to pursue competitiveness is now? So short-sighted and, honestly, the kind of philosophy that has historically held back rebuilding teams from making the jump sooner.

I sort of agree. We didn't trade these picks for Kris Letang or something. The problem is that while I would be fine trading the package that we did for a 24 year old Cat, he needed to cost controlled for more than one year. That's the failure there. Chychrun is better being cost controlled for another two years, and being very obviously open to playing in Ottawa.

The Debrincat trade is not looking good in terms of the long term strength of the roster. That file isn't closed though and hopefully we can get a decent return on him.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Except that they didn't even make the playoffs last year anyhow and may trade away one of the pieces they acquired last summer one year later.

Maybe they just needed to add the RD and forgo the 2nd move? Does it all really have to happen in just one summer?

Anyhow, we need to await the Debrincat trade before we can really reach any conclusions. That's the missing info here (assuming he's traded).

We, presumably, didn't trade for Debrincat and Chychrun to make the playoffs for 1 year only. As a matter of fact, one would presume trades for the calibre of players involved indicates a direct intent to compete in the playoffs, rather than merely qualifying.

Does it all have to happen in one summer? I don't know how to answer that question, except one way: if a player becomes available that you highly covet and think would fit the roster, then why wait to acquire them? We know great, young talent is one of the least traded commodities in the NHL. You can have your go at UFAs and pending free agents and guys on short term contracts but the real value is in getting young, talented players that you can lock up through their prime years. If the opportunity presents itself, why does "one summer" become a restriction to making multiple moves? Does spacing out the deals really matter in the end when you're getting the kinds of players they got in these 2 specific trades? Like, would you feel better if they had done Debrincat last year and then Chychrun this summer? I'm just wondering what it would change, in your opinion.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I sort of agree. We didn't trade these picks for Kris Letang or something. The problem is that while I would be fine trading the package that we did for a 24 year old Cat, he needed to cost controlled for more than one year. That's the failure there. Chychrun is better being cost controlled for another two years, and being very obviously open to playing in Ottawa.

The Debrincat trade is not looking good in terms of the long term strength of the roster. That file isn't closed though and hopefully we can get a decent return on him.

Personally, I don't get wound up on hypotheticals because it's kind of pointless to discuss. We can have 50 pages of discussion on Debrincat getting traded to Team X but then he goes around and signs an extension all of a sudden or gets traded to Team Y. Then what? The last 50 pages are kind of moot and, in retrospect, completely pointless. You know?

Until the assets are fully known, there's no sense in criticizing the result of the trade. If the return we get for him is dogshit, then yeah, there should be some profound anger in here. But we don't know that yet. Hell, we don't even know if he's 100% not signing here.

 

[UglyPuckling]

We, presumably, didn't trade for Debrincat and Chychrun to make the playoffs for 1 year only. As a matter of fact, one would presume trades for the calibre of players involved indicates a direct intent to compete in the playoffs, rather than merely qualifying.

Does it all have to happen in one summer? I don't know how to answer that question, except one way: if a player becomes available that you highly covet and think would fit the roster, then why wait to acquire them? We know great, young talent is one of the least traded commodities in the NHL. You can have your go at UFAs and pending free agents and guys on short term contracts but the real value is in getting young, talented players that you can lock up through their prime years. If the opportunity presents itself, why does "one summer" become a restriction to making multiple moves? Does spacing out the deals really matter in the end when you're getting the kinds of players they got in these 2 specific trades? Like, would you feel better if they had done Debrincat last year and then Chychrun this summer? I'm just wondering what it would change, in your opinion.

Well, with regards to the Debrincat trade, there was certainly a distinct possibility that it would only be one year based on what Debrincat wanted and the high price ($9 m) QO year given our cap situation. It seems to be headed in that direction now, but I don't think that's particularly surprising.

I'm not sure exactly what point you are making in your 2nd paragraph (it's a little confusing). But, yes the biggest need was a RD, so filling that need was the definite priority. I don't mind Debrincat as the player. But, if I'm trading away a 7th overall (plus other picks), I'd want a player with term. I don't get what the BFH was and the necessity of making that move last summer. Plus, if we need a 2nd line winger, that's not exactly the toughest position to fill. There will be opportunities in the future no doubt.

Doesn't it seem a little strange and ironic that the same people who say that rebuilds take considerable time (over 5 years) are also saying the Senators had to make a move for a forward like Debrincat last summer? Those folks don't seem to be consistent with their ideas & principles.

 

[Hale The Villain]

hey Hale,

I have been on here for 4 years. And a further 3 years of simply logging in as a guest and reading.

I have only now noticed the HF board sponsor.,. the two I have noticed is you and a guy who posts in the radio thread ; xxSTUxxx

what is a hfsponsor?

I think you pay $12/year and it removes all the annoying pop up ads.

There are some other fringe benefits which I don't use or care about as well.

 

[Beech]

I think you pay $12/year and it removes all the annoying pop up ads.

There are some other fringe benefits which I don't use or care about as well.

thanks..it was also explained by StakaXXXXXX

I was curious. My first instincts was a "sponsor" as in advertiser.. Thus, company.. so, who??? The one guy that got me curious was xxxxSTUxx.. and posts in radio... My mind instantly to Stuntman Stu.

it is to understand this site better.

to see when bombs go off, why?

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I think you pay $12/year and it removes all the annoying pop up ads.

There are some other fringe benefits which I don't use or care about as well.

I think signatures are behind that paywall now as well. If anyone cares about such things.