Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[HoweHullOrr]

Regarding the Debrincat trade, here are a few things that I believe are worth considering:

Background & environment
Melnyk has already passed away & is no longer a factor
Senators have the 7th overall pick

The Good
Attendance does go up perhaps in some part due to the Debrincat acquisition.
The above point may have been a positive factor in the sale of the team

The Bad
Senators didn't make the playoffs.
Debrincat had an underwhelming year.
Senators cap 2023-24 situation would be tight if Debrincat is on the team in 2023-24.
One year contract with a high $9 m QO (2nd) year has a high probability of being a rental (see the point immediately above this one)
It was definitely a risky move.

TBD
If Debrincat is traded, what are the assets that the Senators will get from the trade.
Does Dorion keep his job

 

[bert]

How do you sign a player that was absolutely never going to sign long term in Ottawa (at the time)?

when PD could not grab Stone’s had ans force him to sign a contract extension…. What was his alternative?

Don't walk him to UFA with a one year qualifying offer. Then panic and trade him at the last minute at Pennies to the dollar. Sound familiar? Debrincat here we are. Matt Duchene deal incredibly similar. Insane the excuses you guys come up with for melnyk and Dorion. Lol thank God they're both going to be gone soon and we get a look at a competent owner and management team.

@JD1 how can you like the Debrincat deal? Its brutal. Never made sense a desperation move to try and save his job that has clearly back fired. You don't trade draft capital like that unless you know he will extend. You don't trade draft capital like that unless you are close to winning if you did know he won't extend. You don't trade for another skilled right handed winger when you know you're signing giroux. Dorion does not know how to build a winning team. The roster construction is very poor. This teams way too easy to play against is top heavy with too many similar players. Good riddance.

The 'firehose' is pointed correctly. There is a long list to back it up. If Owenership treats people poorly, has insane quotes to the media fire sales this teams stars yes it will get pointed. If management makes terrible trades and signings the same thing will happen. It's called accountability. There has to be some.

If new management and ownership treat people well make educated and intelligent decisions they will have the fans support. It works both ways.

 

[Golden_Jet]

to be fair, the Senators won one of the three (draft) lotteries in 2020 and retained the third pick overall.

Slight correction, SJ pick won the third pick in lottery, Sens dropped down to fifth pick that year.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Expectations are too high for a small market team? What to compete? What a load of crap. To not make horrible trades and terrible player evaluations. My goodness how much was melnyk paying you?

You know someone has a losing argument when they have to get personal.

Great trades. Amazing Rebuild.

Expectations that every trade would workout, is not realistic.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Expectations are too high for a small market team.

Secondly, sticking by the organization doesn’t include boycotts.

??? Probably should relocate (or contract) the small market teams like Ottawa, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary & even Nashville then. Small market teams just struggle too much.

 

[Golden_Jet]

??? Probably should relocate (or contract) the small market teams like Ottawa, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary & even Nashville then. Small market teams just struggle too much.

Lol, what an uninformed post, obviously zero knowledge the business of hockey. I’d worry about your own team moving forward, as they could be going the other direction soon, with the moves they make.

Ie Ottawa was 13th in operating incomes in the league in 2022, on a rebuilding team.

Go troll your own team, they deserve it.

 

[bert]

You know someone has a losing argument when they have to get personal.

Great trades. Amazing Rebuild.

Expectations that every trade would workout, is not realistic.

No one expects every trade to work out. But to keep your job you consistently need to be on the better side than not. He's made the same mistakes.

Amazing rebuild? They have no picks or prospects and have missed the playoffs for 6 straight seasons. Have a another player walking out the door for pennies to the dollar. They aren't set up for sustainable success.

They have some great pieces but when you are that bad for that long you're going to accumulate assets. Especially when you fire sale a team of players in their prime.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Lol, what an uninformed post, obviously zero knowledge the business of hockey. I’d worry about your own team moving forward, as they could be going the other direction soon, with the moves they make.

Ie Ottawa was 13th in operating incomes in the league in 2022, on a rebuilding team.

Go troll your own team, they deserve it.

It was said in jest. I didn't think it needed an emoticon, but I guess it did.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

No one expects every trade to work out. But to keep your job you consistently need to be on the better side than not. He's made the same mistakes.

Amazing rebuild? They have no picks or prospects and have missed the playoffs for 6 straight seasons. Have a another player walking out the door for pennies to the dollar. They aren't set up for sustainable success.

They have some great pieces but when you are that bad for that long you're going to accumulate assets. Especially when you fire sale a team of players in their prime.

For sure. I always go for the underdog. That is why I am a Sens fan.

He made mistakes. Just like any other GM. I like the team. We are setup for sustainable success. We are not locked down like some of the bigger teams. We have room to improve.

Not a fire sale team, a planned rebuild.... selling the assets, getting the draft picks. Once you are done drafting you go get rid of picks for players. Pretty normal.

Ottawa Senators: The Misconception of Rebuilds

The Ottawa Senators are in the middle of a long rebuild, but it's important to remain patient as I promise it will be worth it soon.

senshot.com

 

[swiftwin]

to be fair, the Senators won one of the three (draft) lotteries in 2020 and retained the third pick overall.

...with a pick they traded for

 

[Golden_Jet]

...with a pick they traded for

Thanks tips lol, I was just correcting the lottery part if you read the post, everyone knows who owned the pick.
Poster Said Sens won the lottery, SJ pick won the lottery which Ottawa owned. Semantics but just clarifying.

 

[Bileur]

How do you sign a player that was absolutely never going to sign long term in Ottawa (at the time)?

when PD could not grab Stone’s had ans force him to sign a contract extension…. What was his alternative?

Can’t use this excuse anymore as Dorion made it clear he didn’t get approval to make an offer, an offer Dorion himself said he thought Stone would have accepted.

As many of us stated at the time “he doesn’t want to be here” was always bullshit.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Can’t use this excuse anymore as Dorion made it clear he didn’t get approval to make an offer, an offer Dorion himself said he thought Stone would have accepted.

As many of us stated at the time “he doesn’t want to be here” was always bullshit.

Everybody would have stayed for the right number.. DeBrincat , now, included.

If that number was 10AAV for Stone that "Dorion thought would have been accepted" .. no guarantee he says yes. This is Dorion deflecting as much as anything. 12AAV chances go up he'd stay

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Can’t use this excuse anymore as Dorion made it clear he didn’t get approval to make an offer, an offer Dorion himself said he thought Stone would have accepted.

As many of us stated at the time “he doesn’t want to be here” was always bullshit.

He didn’t want to stay for a rebuild. Fact.

Stone wasn’t going to waste 4-5 years.

 

[Bileur]

Everybody would have stayed for the right number.. DeBrincat , now, included.

If that number was 10AAV for Stone that "Dorion thought would have been accepted" .. no guarantee he says yes. This is Dorion deflecting as much as anything.

Dorion said there is a number he was comfortable with that he thought Stone would accept. He didn’t get approval.

The point is that the narrative of Stone wanting to leave and having no interest in staying was always bullshit. He wasn’t offered a competitive deal.

You’re just speculating to try to throw Stone under the bus.

Dorion is definitely throwing Melnyk under the bus and it’s a little cheap to do it when he can’t defend himself but it is what it is. These stories will keep coming out over the next few years, particularly after Dorion himself is fired.

He didn’t want to stay for a rebuild. Fact.

Stone wasn’t going to waste 4-5 years.

I think you need to look up the definition of fact.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Dorion said there is a number he was comfortable with that he thought Stone would accept. He didn’t get approval.

The point is that the narrative of Stone wanting to leave and having no interest in staying was always bullshit. He wasn’t offered a competitive deal.

You’re just speculating to try to throw Stone under the bus.

Dorion is definitely throwing Melnyk under the bus and it’s a little cheap to do it when he can’t defend himself but it is what it is. These stories will keep coming out over the next few years, particularly after Dorion himself is fired.



I think you need to look up the definition of fact.

I know Dorion said he tried at a number he thought would keep Stone and Melnyk said no; Just saying that no guarantee that number kept Stone here when it came down to it.
I am not trying to throw Stone under the bus at all. I am sure he is happy with his decision and I am happy for him.

LeBrun: The Mark Stone trade revisited — how Vegas landed its Cup Final captain at a bargain price

Mark Stone was doing vintage Mark Stone things in Game 1 of the Stanley Cup Final, which had to have been tough to watch for Senators fans.

theathletic.com

 

[JD1]

Pierre LeBrun has a really good article in the Athletic on the Stone trade.

Check it out

 

[Hockeysawks]

Lol, what an uninformed post, obviously zero knowledge the business of hockey. I’d worry about your own team moving forward, as they could be going the other direction soon, with the moves they make.

Ie Ottawa was 13th in operating incomes in the league in 2022, on a rebuilding team.

Go troll your own team, they deserve it.

Ya but that was way under cap and thanks to EM being a cheap bastard the actual payroll is set to skyrocket now.
Brady +4 Batherson +1(+1more year after) Chabot+4(+2 the Next year) Norris +1.5(+3 more the year after) + Jimmys new contract + everyone’s new contracts.
Not that it’s a huge issue but the actual cash dollar profits are going to vanish fast if they try to spend big and have to pay debt, I hope they don’t go back to cheap after a couple years but they might be forced.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Ya but that was way under cap and thanks to EM being a cheap bastard the actual payroll is set to skyrocket now.
Brady +4 Batherson +1(+1more year after) Chabot+4(+2 the Next year) Norris +1.5(+3 more the year after) + Jimmys new contract + everyone’s new contracts.
Not that it’s a huge issue but the actual cash dollar profits are going to vanish fast if they try to spend big and have to pay debt, I hope they don’t go back to cheap after a couple years but they might be forced.

Building a new arena will be loaded with debt.

 

[Sun God Nika]

I’m pretty conflicted about Dorion. If you asked me before Melnyk died I was probably his biggest hater. Hell I would roast him off his looks or shit going on his personal life that’s how petty I was about him f***ing over my favourite hockey team.

He has managed to make a decent trade for Chychrun and got really lucky in the EK trade he isn’t scared to try and make the roster better. Didn’t f*** up the important draft picks with Brady, Stu and Sanderson.

Personally I think he should get a make it or break it year to see if he gets into the playoffs. But I honestly believe he is gone. Andlauer has a vision for a hockey team that’s why he made sure to keep a controlling interest in the ownership and sold out of his minority stake in the habs.

 

[Hockeysawks]

Building a new arena will be loaded with debt.

Ya I Am not sure how the numbers will work out but even the escrow payback ending + cap rise is going to be a huge hit on operating income

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Slight correction, SJ pick won the third pick in lottery, Sens dropped down to fifth pick that year.

correction….it Doesn’t matter where the pick originated…it was a Senators draft pick that won and retained the third lottery..for the third pick overall.

...with a pick they traded for

Yes, but it doesn’t matter… once they acquired the draft pick, it became a Senators draft pick.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Thanks tips lol, I was just correcting the lottery part if you read the post, everyone knows who owned the pick.
Poster Said Sens won the lottery, SJ pick won the lottery which Ottawa owned. Semantics but just clarifying.

the Senators owned the pick, it’s on the record, it was a Senators draft pick.

If it was a SJ draft pick, their logo would have been on the card when flipped over.

 

[swiftwin]

correction….it Doesn’t matter where the pick originated…it was a Senators draft pick that won and retained the third lottery..for the third pick overall.

View attachment 719083


Yes, but it doesn’t matter… once they acquired the draft pick, it became a Senators draft pick.
View attachment 719086

Nobody is arguing that.

All I'm saying is that Dorion had to go out and acquire that pick. Otherwise, none of our picks have won the lottery (including the one that went to Colorado in the Duchene trade).

 

[Beech]

Should Tim S. become a consistent 90-100 point man
Should Jake S. become a quality #1 D man, who ends up a member of team USA for the next 14 years
Should Ridley G. continue to project as a quality #3c and develop into a 40-60 point player
Should Tyler K. become Marc Methot in his prime
Should Leevi M. develop into a quality back-up goalie

And considering that all 5 are half way, if not further down the road, to being there.

Then that 2020 draft will be one of the greatest drafts, not only in team history, but in league history.

That Hockey Ops group needs to be given its due. Regardless of how you think they got there? they got there!!!!

5 guys from one draft year; could have 15 year NHL careers ranging from quality backup goalie to HART candidate to NORRIS candidate..