Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Tnuoc Alucard]

You’re either in charge or your a victim of fate - most GMs I think would rather my way of being held accountable then your way of ‘the universe is mysterious and therefore no one can be held accountable’

You’re either in charge, or you’re a victim of fate…. I think that is what you meant?


Than your way…. I think that is what you mean?



Anyways, it seems that in your assessment of PD, he is the only GM in the NHL that makes “ massive mistakes “ and is the only GM that loses trades, or effs up UFA signings.


Again, you had no issue with the trade that brought DBC to Ottawa, as I did not ( in the Debrincat thread) any objection to it, from you, through the first few months after the trade was made, and we’ll into the season.

But now that DBC has decided to NOT sign an extension with Ottawa, and has asked to be traded to a team that he feels he would…. then, and only then did you, and to be fair, others, started to slam PD for making the trade, just over a year ago.

Monday morning QB?

 

[JD1]

The Zibanejad-Brassard and Burrows-Dahlen trades have been litigated to death. Even with the ECF run, I think both were poor decisions and examples of losing value in a trade. Agree to disagree, I guess.

But more than that, look at are all the buyouts and second round picks he's burned through to make and then fix his mistakes. These issues aren't as consequential during the rebuild, but as the team gets competitive and the budget gets tighter, we can't keep pissing away value and assets at Dorion's rate.

Your 2nd paragraph moves the goalposts

He now has a core that he's building around. That's a very different situation in terms of asset utilization that 2018 to 2021

 

[Senator Stanley]

Your 2nd paragraph moves the goalposts

He now has a core that he's building around. That's a very different situation in terms of asset utilization that 2018 to 2021

So we can only judge his performance based on what he did during the 2017 season?

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

If we're being honest, he had 2 seasons where the team was attempting to be competitive. One of those he did relatively well, the other he did not. The first season had good results but is tainted imo by such a doozy in giving up Zbad that accelerated a need to rebuild. The core no longer had a potential number 1 center to work with and significantly weakened it as a whole for the future outlook.

The first season he did pretty well adding 3 effective 4th liners for the run in Wingels, Stalberg & Burrows. He also brought in Condon who had a great stretch of hockey. Phaneuf was a solid addition but that deal turned in to a serious negative quickly, so another tainted acquisition.

The season after was a poor job and Dorion was as responsible for the collapse as anyone. Those positives in Burrows and Condon instantly turned into net negatives for the team with the contracts they got. Bad money started showing itself with poor performance in Anderson, Smith, Phaneuf & Ceci in particular. Karlsson's injury and Methot lost wasn't even attempted to be insulated against in any sort of real, tangible way, unless you consider Oduya that, but that's absurd. Then his big move didn't address the glaring need on D and even further expedited the need to rebuild.

Like I've said many times, it's a mix of good and bad with this guy no matter the year and that period is no slam dunk for saying he did well.

 

[JD1]

So we can only judge his performance based on what he did during the 2017 season?

God no. Go back and read the original post I quoted.

You said he can't build around a core. I said he did that in 2017.

2018-2021 he clearly wasn't trying to do that.

See the difference?

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

God no. Go back and read the original post I quoted.

You said he can't build around a core. I said he did that in 2017.

2018-2021 he clearly wasn't trying to do that.

See the difference?

2018 he was. And his biggest acquisition came during that season.

 

[Senator Stanley]

God no. Go back and read the original post I quoted.

You said he can't build around a core. I said he did that in 2017.

2018-2021 he clearly wasn't trying to do that.

See the difference?

My first statement was "we need ... somebody with the skillset and discipline to build around a core, to find value on the margins. Dorion has consistently shown that this is not a strength of his." I wasn't speaking to you. There were no "goal posts".

I was speaking to his skillset and discipline, and whether he has demonstrated the skillset and discipline required to "build around a core, to find value on the margins". I don't see why I should limit my assessment of Dorion's abilities to periods when the team was competitive. Between 2018 and 2021, he was still making decisions that speak to his abilities. A 2nd round pick for two bad months of Derek Stepan happened in 2020. That is still relevant to an assessment of Dorion as a manager, and whether he's the right person for the job going forward.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Why is 2018 being excluded? They were clearly trying to win that year and Dorion made his biggest trade on his resume mid season. Makes no sense.

 

[JD1]

My first statement was "we need ... somebody with the skillset and discipline to build around a core, to find value on the margins. Dorion has consistently shown that this is not a strength of his." I wasn't speaking to you. There were no "goal posts". It was just a statement.

I was speaking to his skillset and discipline, and whether he has demonstrated the skillset and discipline required to "build around a core, to find value on the margins". I don't see why I should limit my assessment of Dorion's abilities to periods when the team was competitive. Between 2018 and 2021, he was still making decisions that speak to his abilities. A 2nd round pick for two bad months of Derek Stepan happened in 2020. That is still relevant to an assessment of Dorion as a manager, and whether he's the right person for the job going forward.

Because in 18-21 he didn't have a core so if you want to assess his ability to build around a core, you're basically limited to 16-17 and 22-23. What happened in between was building a core, not building "around" a core.

Apologies if i misunderstood your original point

 

[Senator Stanley]

Because in 18-21 he didn't have a core so if you want to assess his ability to build around a core, you're basically limited to 16-17 and 22-23. What happened in between was building a core, not building "around" a core.

Apologies if i misunderstood your original point

I'm saying that to build around a competitive core when the budget gets tight requires a manager who can find value around the margins and manage assets intelligently. During his entire tenure, I do not think Dorion has shown that these are his strengths.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Because in 18-21 he didn't have a core so if you want to assess his ability to build around a core, you're basically limited to 16-17, 17-18 and 22-23. What happened in between was building a core, not building "around" a core.

Apologies if i misunderstood your original point

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

from the moment Dorion spent 11-12 million on Murray + Dadonov he was trying to win.

we are entering the 4th season since and have not even sniffed a playoff spot.

blows human comprehension that people still defend him.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I'm saying that to build around a competitive core when the budget gets tight requires a manager who can find value around the margins and manage assets intelligently. During his entire tenure, I do not think Dorion has shown that these are his strengths.

I mean, all he’s done is had to work with a tiny budget.

 

[Senator Stanley]

I mean, all he’s done is had to work with a tiny budget.

All the more reason to judge him on his full resume, then.

 

[Ice-Tray]

All the more reason to judge him on his full resume, then.

Or, and it’s just my opinion, take a minute to see how he does in what is a completely different situation than any he’s had the chance to work in.

With a shoe string budget he has assembled an impressive young core, now he has the ability to run a cap team, at least for a few more months, I’d like to see how he does.

He’s signed the core to sweet long term deals, and brought in some excellent players to join that core in trades.

To judge him in his full resume requires using contemporary context, which has changed several times over the years. I’m curious to see how he handles free reign and a full budget.

Maybe he crumbles, maybe not, but I’d like to see given how much I like the team he has assembled so far.

 

[Senator Stanley]

Or, and it’s just my opinion, take a minute to see how he does in what is a completely different situation than any he’s had the chance to work in.

With a shoe string budget he has assembled an impressive young core, now he has the ability to run a cap team, at least for a few more months, I’d like to see how he does.

He’s signed the core to sweet long term deals, and brought in some excellent players to join that core in trades.

To judge him in his full resume requires using contemporary context, which has changed several times over the years. I’m curious to see how he handles free reign and a full budget.

Maybe he crumbles, maybe not, but I’d like to see given how much I like the team he has assembled so far.

Fair enough. I feel like I've seen enough to move on, but can understand your perspective.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Fair enough. I feel like I've seen enough to move on, but can understand your perspective.

I respect that, truly.

In the end I’ll get behind whomever arrives, players or otherwise (within reason) as I always do because we’re all fans.

But I would like to see these guys get a chance to see it through a bit longer with this thing they have built, I think it’s been earned.

 

[Knave]

Or, and it’s just my opinion, take a minute to see how he does in what is a completely different situation than any he’s had the chance to work in.

With a shoe string budget he has assembled an impressive young core, now he has the ability to run a cap team, at least for a few more months, I’d like to see how he does.

He’s signed the core to sweet long term deals, and brought in some excellent players to join that core in trades.

To judge him in his full resume requires using contemporary context, which has changed several times over the years. I’m curious to see how he handles free reign and a full budget.

Maybe he crumbles, maybe not, but I’d like to see given how much I like the team he has assembled so far.

We just did. Did we make the playoffs? No.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

The end is nigh.

 

[Ice-Tray]

We just did. Did we make the playoffs? No.

Ahhhhh, a GM gets one shot with a playoff bubble team to make it or they’re gone?

Cool.

 

[Micklebot]

Ahhhhh, a GM gets one shot with a playoff bubble team to make it or they’re gone?

Cool.

To be fair, the GM thought they were a playoff bubble team when he added Murray and Dadonov, saying "A lot of the hard work has been done. For us, now, it’s time to perform". Those two big acquisitions failed spectacularly and he got another chance. The very next year, he said "The rebuild is done. Now we're stepping into another zone" and "We've had a plan since we started this rebuild. I feel that we're in the next stage now, it's time to start to win", only to spectacularly fail again. This past year was his third and best kick at the can, at least, judging by the standard he himself set at the start of each year.

 

[Ice-Tray]

To be fair, the GM thought they were a playoff bubble team when he added Murray and Dadonov, saying "A lot of the hard work has been done. For us, now, it’s time to perform". Those two big acquisitions failed spectacularly and he got another chance. The very next year, he said "The rebuild is done. Now we're stepping into another zone" and "We've had a plan since we started this rebuild. I feel that we're in the next stage now, it's time to start to win", only to spectacularly fail again. This past year was his third and best kick at the can, at least, judging by the standard he himself set at the start of each year.

Not sure playoffs were a possibility, or potential goal until last year, but I’m fine with the variety of opinions people hold.

 

[Knave]

Ahhhhh, a GM gets one shot with a playoff bubble team to make it or they’re gone?

Cool.

Yes. After 6 full seasons of missing the playoffs it's time to look in a new direction.

He was given the green light to spend big in the 2022 offseason. He signed Giroux. He traded away picks for DeBrincat. He went and got the goalie he wanted via trade.

The 2022-2023 season was the chance. That was the "one shot". It was something 99% of GMs do not get but because of our owner dying Pierre Dorion lucked out.

This isn't Lou Lamoriello or Ken Holland with a long resume, prestige, cache and a track record. We're talking about Pierre Dorion. He can find a job in an organization somewhere but in terms of leading the Ottawa Senators... it needs to come to an end as soon as the new owner is in place.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Yes. After 6 full seasons of missing the playoffs it's time to look in a new direction.

He was given the green light to spend big in the 2022 offseason. He signed Giroux. He traded away picks for DeBrincat. He went and got the goalie he wanted via trade.

The 2022-2023 season was the chance. That was the "one shot". It was something 99% of GMs do not get but because of our owner dying Pierre Dorion lucked out.

This isn't Lou Lamoriello or Ken Holland with a long resume, prestige, cache and a track record. We're talking about Pierre Dorion. He can find a job in an organization somewhere but in terms of leading the Ottawa Senators... it needs to come to an end as soon as the new owner is in place.

Yeah yeah I know, context isn’t your thing so I’ll skip the ‘6 years’ comment because at least you got the number right.

Last summer has a series of good expenditures. Sucks that Talbot was injury prone all season though.

I don’t think ‘one shot’ is how being a GM is evaluated. We don’t view Lou or Holland with the same reverence, but both needed time to build resumes, and Dorion’s team is looking just fine right now compared to what both of those guys have built currently.

As for 99% of other GMs? PD is getting a shot with a team that HE BUILT. That’s why he’s getting a shot that other GMs aren’t. Show me another GM that built an awesome team up from nothing and got fired before he ever got to try to make the playoffs with it. You get fired for failure, not for building.

Anyways, you think what you want, I’m personally enjoying what’s going on here with this rebuild.


This isn’t an 8 mile rap battle, it’s a building process that has been producing an ever better looking group.

 

[Knave]

Yeah yeah I know, context isn’t your thing so I’ll skip the ‘6 years’ comment because at least you got the number right.

Last summer has a series of good expenditures. Sucks that Talbot was injury prone all season though.

I don’t think ‘one shot’ is how being a GM is evaluated. We don’t view Lou or Holland with the same reverence, but both needed time to build resumes, and Dorion’s team is looking just fine right now compared to what both of those guys have built currently.

As for 99% of other GMs? PD is getting a shot with a team that HE BUILT. That’s why he’s getting a shot that other GMs aren’t. Show me another GM that built an awesome team up from nothing and got fired before he ever got to try to make the playoffs with it. You get fired for failure, not for building.

Anyways, you think what you want, I’m personally enjoying what’s going on here with this rebuild.


This isn’t an 8 mile rap battle, it’s a building process that has been producing an ever better looking group.

You're right. It's not. We should take a fair look.

So lets take a look at the the history of all NHL GMs. First we will look at single team tenure. The record of a GM with a team from hiring to firing. And we'll pick the top 100 in terms of games managed.

Here's the link: NHL Records

Here are some highlights where I rank by points percentage and pick recognizable recent names:

Rank	Name	Franchise	Games	Wins	Losses	Ties	OT Losses	Points	Points Percentage
2	Don Sweeney	Boston	618	378	174	0	66	822	133%
8	Ken Holland	Detroit	1688	925	523	72	168	2090	124%
22	Lou Lamo.	New Jersey	2140	1093	759	179	109	2474	116%
52	Bryan Murray	Ottawa	704	339	278	0	87	765	109%
61	Don Maloney	Arizona	704	326	291	0	87	739	105%
67	Garth Snow	NYI	950	425	403	0	122	972	102%
72	Cliff Fletcher	Toronto	460	202	200	58	0	462	100%
74	Bryan Murray	Florida	494	199	203	81	11	490	99%
78	Jim Benning	Vancouver	560	242	257	0	61	545	97%
82	Pierre Dorion	Ottawa	537	221	257	0	59	501	93%
87	Don Waddell	Atlanta	820	308	401	45	66	727	89%
90	Mike Milbury	NYI	792	294	392	86	20	694	88%
91	J. Ferguson Sr	Arizona	729	271	362	96	0	638	88%
94	Doug MacLean	Columbus	492	172	258	33	29	406	83%
96	Phil Esposito	Tampa Bay	464	157	253	54	0	368	79%

One important thing to keep in mind is the ties column. This puts all the GMs below Pierre Dorion at a disadvantage. They tied games. Dorion teams won games that would be considered ties.

If we assume a Mike Milbury team or Ferguson Sr. team won at a similar rate to their records.... and we divvy up those ties.... Milbury and Ferguson Jr would have a very similar record to Dorion.

That leaves - Doug MacLean, Phil Esposito and Don Waddell (sort of but Don Waddell is pretty close to Dorion). And what do all three have in common? They were the first GMs for expansion teams. They had zero assets to start with. Dorion started with a playoff team. Not a great team but a playoff team with a Norris winner, a future Selke candidate, some solid players at center.

I just don't see how this is a debate. I really don't. I don't hate Dorion. I wish him well. He'll get a job as a scout or AGM but his first attempt at being an NHL GM has been a complete failure when you look at the list of names and who he compares with.