Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Ice-Tray]

Can't wait till Dorion and his small , tight pro scouting staff is turfed so we can have some confidence in identifying the right players to fill in this roster.

I just hope the front office isn’t replace with worse performers.

Looking around the league it’s clear to see that there are lots of management staffs that aren’t much better, and some worse from the looks of the way their teams are trending.

 

[Senator Stanley]

I just hope the front office isn’t replace with worse performers.

Looking around the league it’s clear to see that there are lots of management staffs that aren’t much better, and some worse from the looks of the way their teams are trending.

It's a risk worth taking.

This team is on the cusp of being competitive, and Dorion gets his share of credit for that, but what we need now is somebody with the skillset and discipline to build around a core, to find value on the margins. Dorion has consistently shown that this is not a strength of his.

 

[Ice-Tray]

It's a risk worth taking.

This team is on the cusp of being competitive, and Dorion gets his share of credit for that, but what we need now is somebody with the skillset and discipline to build around a core, to find value on the margins. Dorion has consistently shown that this is not a strength of his.

And who has the proven resume for that who is unemployed, and why are they unemployed. Should we not see if Dorion can actually be that guy as well? Maybe a little leeway just to see? DJ as well?

I’d like to see these two operate for another season without EM, and as a cap team before jettisoning the staff for a complete unknown.

If the team hadn’t been progressing well, developing well, and if the leadership hadn’t fully endorsed their coach perhaps I’d be more inclined to want immediate change.

But I like the team, I like the progression, and I like the direction so I don’t see a need to change right now. Change will undoubtably come, as it always does, I’d just prefer it to be intelligent change rather than punitive change which seems to be the root of many posts in here calling for heads to roll (not saying you in particular).

The need to win every trade and be charismatic in front the cameras at all times is going to be the death knell for all GMs that pass though here, it’s just not reasonable. The real judge is the team on the ice, and this team, at this time, doesn’t look or play like a team that needs its GM and coach fired, in my opinion.

That could all change of course, and new ownership may have their own people in mind which would render this all a moot point anyways. We’ll see how it unfolds regardless!

 

[Hale The Villain]

I just hope the front office isn’t replace with worse performers.

Looking around the league it’s clear to see that there are lots of management staffs that aren’t much better, and some worse from the looks of the way their teams are trending.

That's not true anymore.

At one point there were definitely some GMs that could be considered worse than Dorion but guys like Benning, Bowman, Fletcher, Hextall and Chiarelli.. have all been fired for their incompetence, but Dorion has survived.

Unless we're hiring one of those guys to replace him, we'll almost certainly be better off with a new GM and management group.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

It's time to bring this beauty back. 2022 Draft - Dorion's big coup, Not saying it was his proudest day but proud just the same.

 

[Micklebot]

7OA is a lottery pick. We were in the lottery and got 7th.

Personally, I only consider it a lottery pick if a) it wins the lottery, or b) the trade is made prior to the lottery. The pick we traded had exactly zero percent chance of winning the lottery, so is it really a lottery pick?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Makes sense to some degree.

It’s weird though they built this team with big, hard players and go out and get a small winger with no jam to fill out the roster. Culturally it was just a weird move

Clearly the trades for DBC, Giroux, Talbot before the season, and Jakob Chychrun later on, was to get the team over the hump, and make the playoffs.

injuries to Talbot, Norris, Chabot, Zub and Chychrun pretty much destroyed any playoff chances.

 

[R We A Team]

Don't you guys get tired of saying the same thing over and over again? We get it, NOT HAPPY WITH DORION...

You all wanted Murray fired as well, in fact every G.M. we have had, this board, at one point or another has wanted the G.M. fired.

We get a new G.M. I'd bet within a year the same crowd is looking to fire him/her as well.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Don't you guys get tired of saying the same thing over and over again? We get it, NOT HAPPY WITH DORION...

You all wanted Murray fired as well, in fact every G.M. we have had, this board, at one point or another has wanted the G.M. fired.

We get a new G.M. I'd bet within a year the same crowd is looking to fire him/her as well.

Truly no one appreciated how bad it would be going from Murray to Dorion.

We were so young and naive.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Don't you guys get tired of saying the same thing over and over again? We get it, NOT HAPPY WITH DORION...

You all wanted Murray fired as well, in fact every G.M. we have had, this board, at one point or another has wanted the G.M. fired.

We get a new G.M. I'd bet within a year the same crowd is looking to fire him/her as well.

You say that like it's been a revolving door in Ottawa and that the track record says the complaints have no legitimacy, which isn't the case. It's been a polarizing tenure for both Murray and Dorion and it's disingenuous to say otherwise.

There's only ever been three GM's in Melnyk's entire 20 year tenure and the main two were internal hires with only one guy ever being fired in Muckler, who was a carry over from previous ownership. Dorion worked under Murray for almost his whole tenure, so there was a lot of carry over in philosophy. They've fired a ton of coaches though.

Considering the up and down results in Ottawa during that time, how can you hold it against anyone wanting to try something different? To talk down to them as if they're not reasonable just makes your case look weak. Especially now that the team can potentially hire GM's and Coaches without Melnyk's MO that they must come cheap.

 

[Tuna99]

Clearly the trades for DBC, Giroux, Talbot before the season, and Jakob Chychrun later on, was to get the team over the hump, and make the playoffs.

injuries to Talbot, Norris, Chabot, Zub and Chychrun pretty much destroyed any playoff chances.

I mean just because you do lots of stuff doesn't;t make you a success. Dorions been trading activity for 6 years and his teams are bad.

Just because you have intentions and act on them doesn't mean your good at your job. It just means your busy

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Don't you guys get tired of saying the same thing over and over again? We get it, NOT HAPPY WITH DORION...

You all wanted Murray fired as well, in fact every G.M. we have had, this board, at one point or another has wanted the G.M. fired.

We get a new G.M. I'd bet within a year the same crowd is looking to fire him/her as well.

silly notions

1. Some not happy with Dorion.. I am one of those
2. No we did not all want Murray fired. I am not one of those who did,
3. No way .. within a year? Hyperbole.

Just say you love Dorion and be done with it.

 

[redbrick98]

Started a good replacement thread in San Jose board about the potential of bringing in Doug Wilson as POHO in Ottawa ... solid read ... good stuff!

 

[JungleBeat]

Truly no one appreciated how bad it would be going from Murray to Dorion.

We were so young and naive.

It’s not like Murray was any better as a GM. His moves handcuffed this team tremendously. But I will say Murray actually knew how to speak and articulate his thoughts like an adult, Dorion just sounds like a buffoon every time he speaks.

 

[JungleBeat]

Started a good replacement thread in San Jose board about the potential of bringing in Doug Wilson as POHO in Ottawa ... solid read ... good stuff!

Look at the state SJ is in. I’ll pass.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Look at the state SJ is in. I’ll pass.

San Jose had a 15 year run where they went 681-373-130, amassing in 1504 points (55 points more than the 2nd place team - Detroit - over that span). They got to the SCF once, CF four times, and SF 5 times.

Are you surprised that after such a long period of sustained success a team had to eventually rebuild?

Do you consider David Poile a bad GM because of the "state" Nashville is in now?

San Jose is certainly in no worse shape, today, than we were at the end of 2017.

 

[JungleBeat]

San Jose had a 15 year run where they went 681-373-130, amassing in 1504 points (55 points more than the 2nd place team - Detroit - over that span). They got to the SCF once, CF four times, and SF 5 times.

Are you surprised that after such a long period of sustained success a team had to eventually rebuild?

Do you consider David Poile a bad GM because of the "state" Nashville is in now?

Major unforced errors handing out bloated contracts to players who are on the decline. Their core group should have been changed up a bit and maybe they would have got a chip.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Major unforced errors handing out bloated contracts to players who are on the decline. Their core group should have been changed up a bit and maybe they would have got a chip.

Major? Giving Karlsson that deal was poor timing, they shouldn't have tried to extend that window past 15 years, but after the season he just had, they'll get a lot of value back when they trade him this summer.

In Doug Wilson's very long tenure, the only real "bad" contract he gave was to Vlasic.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Major? Giving Karlsson that deal was poor timing, they shouldn't have tried to extend that window past 15 years, but after the season he just had, they'll get a lot of value back when they trade him this summer.

In Doug Wilson's very long tenure, the only real "bad" contract he gave was to Vlasic.

They even had a really good first year with Karlsson, as did he, it just started going off the rails from there.

You'll never find a perfect GM and surely, Doug Wilson will have taken these lessons forward and would handle it differently if faced with the same.

 

[PlayersLtd]

There seems to be some flip flopping or some different ideas about the goals for last season. Was it meaningful games late in the season or "playoffs" ("playoff experience")? These 2 different goals seem interchangeable at times.

Two other points:

1. Senators did sign Giroux and could certainly state they were doing something because of this.
2. A RD was identified as the biggest priority or need last summer.

PD was always pretty tempered with expectations never stating that playoffs were the goal but I think this was as much about setting the bar low and taking pressure off the players heading into the season as anything. But yeah, I think they can be treated as interchangeable- a GM that says meaningful games could probably just as easily say playoffs under different circumstances but with the same roster.

1 / Giroux was a great add and I would say partially justified going after Dcat (this is assuming we knew we were getting him which I'm not convinced of since his rights with FLA were not relinquished until a few hours before Dcat was signed.) But, in the scenario where we knew we were getting Giroux it is completely possible that PD changed his outlook on the teams chances and believed we were only a piece or two away from having a legitimate shot at the playoffs, which turned out to be true (Norris is better injury luck and we were right there). He admitted in a recent interview that the Chychrun deal was in the works going back to then so it's entirely possible that he was trying to address our biggest weakness but couldn't by any substantial margin so he opted to take the big fish up front instead, while he could.

2 / Turns out with Hamonic's play a RD upgrade was not as critical as many thought or many are making it out right now. Our D got caved in our own end all season long and unanimously people believe this was because coaching ("systems"), less about individual talents. Hamonic was not great early on but he was steady for most of the season.

I think it was more about poor player utilization than anything, and injuries, Zub primarily. I'm not saying our D wasn't a weakness entering the season but I am saying nobody expected it to be as bad for the reasons it was. My proof for this is that Hamonic was not in the line of fire for most of the season, he was ok as a 2nd pair rd. A bigger factor was injuries, injury replacements, DJ being married to Zaitsev for the first 1/4 and Chabot's regression.

So anyway, I think without Norris' injury and poor player utilization by DJ early in the season I think this team is right there in a playoff race and then I think we would have looked at Dcat differently. Giving the team a chance to fight in the trenches and learn to win as they claw their way out of a rebuild is worth + - 10 spots in a draft at this point in franchise history, imo.

 

[bicboi64]

Dorion is pretty active, its just the rationale behind his 'vision' is something that doesn't mesh with me. I don't want to wait to see how his vision looks given what I consider mismanagement of assets, depth, and cheap ELC years of key contributors.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I mean just because you do lots of stuff doesn't;t make you a success. Dorions been trading activity for 6 years and his teams are bad.

Just because you have intentions and act on them doesn't mean your good at your job. It just means your busy

that trade that brought both Norris and Stutzle was terrible.

and what about the trade that saw Chychrun become a senator, that sucked.


and all those trades that were forced by players who wanted out, that has to be all PDs fault… not the players

 

[JD1]

It's a risk worth taking.

This team is on the cusp of being competitive, and Dorion gets his share of credit for that, but what we need now is somebody with the skillset and discipline to build around a core, to find value on the margins. Dorion has consistently shown that this is not a strength of his.

Wait now. You said build around a core. Find value on the margins. Dorion can't do that.

Isn't that exactly what he did to support the core he inherited and the team went to the ECF. And he was nominated by his peers for GM of the year....for doing exactly what you said he can't do.

Personally, I only consider it a lottery pick if a) it wins the lottery, or b) the trade is made prior to the lottery. The pick we traded had exactly zero percent chance of winning the lottery, so is it really a lottery pick?

Math. Not everyone gets it

 

[Tuna99]

that trade that brought both Norris and Stutzle was terrible.

and what about the trade that saw Chychrun become a senator, that sucked.


and all those trades that were forced by players who wanted out, that has to be all PDs fault… not the players

You’re either in charge or your a victim of fate - most GMs I think would rather my way of being held accountable then your way of ‘the universe is mysterious and therefore no one can be held accountable’

 

[Senator Stanley]

Wait now. You said build around a core. Find value on the margins. Dorion can't do that.

Isn't that exactly what he did to support the core he inherited and the team went to the ECF. And he was nominated by his peers for GM of the year....for doing exactly what you said he can't do.


Math. Not everyone gets it

The Zibanejad-Brassard and Burrows-Dahlen trades have been litigated to death. Even with the ECF run, I think both were poor decisions and examples of losing value in a trade. Agree to disagree, I guess.

But more than that, look at are all the buyouts and second round picks he's burned through to make and then fix his mistakes. These issues aren't as consequential during the rebuild, but as the team gets competitive and the budget gets tighter, we can't keep pissing away value and assets at Dorion's rate.