Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Ouroboros]

Bjorkstrand would have been a very smart addition. Signed with term, ideal 2nd line winger.

Getting Bjorkstrand and keeping Brown + the 7th would have been good, in hindsight.

With that said, maybe getting DBC was what Giroux needed to see to sign here. Who knows.

Why keep Brown? The guy was pretty clear about his desire to bounce. Many people on here are saying that it was a mistake to trade him, but those same people would be criticizing Dorion if he kept him around for the season and let him walk as a UFA. So what is the correct thing to do? Seems like a no-win situation to me.

Personally I don't think 45 points for 5.4M is exceptional value, so in that respect I would not be very interested in Bjorkstrand. Beyond that, he has a NTC - do you think he's waiving that to come to Ottawa? I don't.

This is sort of the crux of the issue - how does a shithole market like Ottawa acquire top talent? They can't sign it on the free agent market and they can't trade for it once the player has reached UFA age and can get trade protection. So either you draft it yourself, or you step up and take a shot like they did with DeBrincat. A risk was taken and it didn't pan out. That's life.

 

[Ice-Tray]

It didn’t seem like DBC ever wanted to be here in the first place, seemed pretty upset to be moved by Chicago, so I don’t think it would have mattered. It’s not like he was thrilled to be a Senator, either. The fit was awkward from day 1.

Brown would have been playing for a payday, anyway. That would have been the motivation.

But regardless, could have not been Brown but another 3rd liner. Maybe Jesper Fast. Whoever.

Point is two players instead of one.

I get it. Though a healthy Norris for the season likely makes one mych better player more impactful than two lesser players.

 

[PlayersLtd]

People sure are losing their minds over + - 10 draft spots (in a weak draft vs strong draft I might add). We are likely to recoup the equivalent of a mid to late first round pick once this trade is done.

If that doesn't happen then freak out then but until then assume that the return will be ok and accept that + - 10 draft spots was a completely reasonable gamble to take on accelerating the rebuild and giving this team an extra year of playoff experience.

It was also a completely reasonable move when considering the request for help that Brady and Chabby made as others pointed out. The core loves playing here, our team morale has come a long way and I think this move contributed to that. Not only that but it was an attempt to put the onus on the players to win. Unfortunately Norris and goaltending had other plans.

Others can be happy languishing in the rebuild, I'm happy we have a GM who is willing to take some risk in exchange for + - 10 draft spots. Honestly, that's exactly what we should want after everything we have been through.

Do I want the pick right now? Of course but there is more than one way to skin a cat and I can completely see the logic in why we took the gamble. Didn't completely work but that doesn't make PD an idiot by any stretch.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Why keep Brown? The guy was pretty clear about his desire to bounce. Many people on here are saying that it was a mistake to trade him, but those same people would be criticizing Dorion if he kept him around for the season and let him walk as a UFA. So what is the correct thing to do? Seems like a no-win situation to me.

Personally I don't think 45 points for 5.4M is exceptional value, so in that respect I would not be very interested in Bjorkstrand. Beyond that, he has a NTC - do you think he's waiving that to come to Ottawa? I don't.

This is sort of the crux of the issue - how does a shithole market like Ottawa acquire top talent? They can't sign it on the free agent market and they can't trade for it once the player has reached UFA age and can get trade protection. So either you draft it yourself, or you step up and take a shot like they did with DeBrincat. A risk was taken and it didn't pan out. That's life.

That’s not my argument. I’m saying Ottawa didn’t need to acquire top talent. We had Tkachuk, Stützle, Norris, Batherson and Giroux up front. We needed better depth.

Instead of blowing our wad on Debrincat, a small one dimensional scorer, we could have spread that money between multiple players who could do different things. Like play physical and defend.

It didn’t have to be Brown. Could have been someone else.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Why keep Brown? The guy was pretty clear about his desire to bounce. Many people on here are saying that it was a mistake to trade him, but those same people would be criticizing Dorion if he kept him around for the season and let him walk as a UFA. So what is the correct thing to do? Seems like a no-win situation to me.

Personally I don't think 45 points for 5.4M is exceptional value, so in that respect I would not be very interested in Bjorkstrand. Beyond that, he has a NTC - do you think he's waiving that to come to Ottawa? I don't.

This is sort of the crux of the issue - how does a shithole market like Ottawa acquire top talent? They can't sign it on the free agent market and they can't trade for it once the player has reached UFA age and can get trade protection. So either you draft it yourself, or you step up and take a shot like they did with DeBrincat. A risk was taken and it didn't pan out. That's life.

That’s it right there. Accept your market, and the gambles that are sometimes required.

Next GM will get the same treatment from the same folks that think we play with the big boys. it’s not all about money.

 

[Ice-Tray]

That’s not my argument. I’m saying Ottawa didn’t need to acquire top talent. We had Tkachuk, Stützle, Norris, Batherson and Giroux up front. We needed better depth.

Instead of blowing our wad on Debrincat, a small one dimensional scorer, we should have spread that money between multiple players who could do different things. Like play physical and defend.

It didn’t have to be Brown. Could have been someone else.

We didn’t “blow out wad” though. We made an excellent value trade for a player with two years left on his deal so we could try and convince him to stay. the cost was low for a multiple 40 goal 24 year old, and it didn’t cost us a single roster player to boot.

You never have enough talent on the roster, that’s just silly, especially for a team that missed the playoffs.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

We didn’t “blow out wad” though. We made an excellent value trade for a player with two years left on his deal so we could try and convince him to stay. the cost was low for a multiple 40 goal 24 year old, and it didn’t cost us a single roster player to boot.

You never have enough talent on the roster, that’s just silly, especially for a team that missed the playoffs.

Point is to build a team. A lottery pick has a lot of value. I’m not against trading those picks, I just wouldn’t have picked Debrincat. Small wingers who don’t skate all that well are not my cup of tea.

It’s funny, because I don’t think we would have drafted a player of his profile with a lottery pick. But we traded for him.

It is what it is. Hopefully we can turn it into something that fits better. I’d much rather add a guy like Lawson Crouse or even Brandon Saad to this team than keep Debrincat. Heck, I think Mantha would be a better complement to Norris/Batherson.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Point is to build a team. A lottery pick has a lot of value. I’m not against trading those picks, I just wouldn’t have picked Debrincat. Small wingers who don’t skate all that well are not my cup of tea.

It’s funny, because I don’t think we would have drafted a player of his profile with a lottery pick. But we traded for him.

It is what it is. Hopefully we can turn it into something that fits better. I’d much rather add a guy like Lawson Crouse or even Brandon Saad to this team than keep Debrincat. Heck, I think Mantha would be a better complement to Norris/Batherson.

it wasn‘t a lottery pick, it was 7OA.

I like the player more than you for sure, but I understand your point of view. He is a proven scorer at every level though, most importantly the NHL.

Not into Mantha at all, but Crouse; yes!

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

it wasn‘t a lottery pick, it was 7OA.

I like the player more than you for sure, but I understand your point of view. He is a proven scorer at every level though, most importantly the NHL.

Not into Mantha at all, but Crouse; yes!

7OA is a lottery pick. We were in the lottery and got 7th.

 

[Ice-Tray]

7OA is a lottery pick. We were in the lottery and got 7th.

We lost the lottery, and 7 is where we ended up. We didn’t trade a lottery pick, we traded 7OA.

Unless you’re using the definition of ‘lottery pick’ as the pick from any team that doesn’t make the playoffs AFTER the lottery has taken place.

 

[Ouroboros]

That’s not my argument. I’m saying Ottawa didn’t need to acquire top talent. We had Tkachuk, Stützle, Norris, Batherson and Giroux up front. We needed better depth.

Instead of blowing our wad on Debrincat, a small one dimensional scorer, we could have spread that money between multiple players who could do different things. Like play physical and defend.

It didn’t have to be Brown. Could have been someone else.

I don't disagree about not needing DeBrincat, really. I've never been a fan and I like him even less after having watched him up close for an entire season.

The Sens can still sort out their depth though. If you get a decent middle-six forward as part of the return for DeBrincat and then redirect some of the cap savings towards another depth forward [trade or UFA] then you're pretty much there.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

We lost the lottery, and 7 is where we ended up. We didn’t trade a lottery pick, we traded 7OA.

Unless you’re using the definition of ‘lottery pick’ as the pick from any team that doesn’t make the playoffs AFTER the lottery has taken place.

Semantics. Either way, we traded a high pick for a player who I don’t think we needed and didn’t end up fitting in.

But oh well. At the end of the day, him not wanting to be here saves us from potentially making another mistake. Signing him to an 8x8 deal, or even more, would have been stupid IMO. That money can be better spent.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Semantics. Either way, we traded a high pick for a player who I don’t think we needed and didn’t end up fitting in.

But oh well. At the end of the day, him not wanting to be here saves us from potentially making another mistake. Signing him to an 8x8 deal, or even more, would have been stupid IMO. That money can be better spent.

It’s not really semantics otherwise teams wouldn’t trade ‘lottery protected’ picks like we did with Chychrun.

Its not semantics in this case, it’s improper use of NHL hockey jargon when making a point.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

The crappy thing really is that he had such a down year by his standards and the first one away from Kane. Maybe I'm wrong, but I assume it has to have hurt his value.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

It’s not really semantics otherwise teams wouldn’t trade ‘lottery protected’ picks like we did with Chychrun.

Its not semantics in this case, it’s improper use of NHL hockey jargon when making a point.

The pick we traded for Chychrun was top 5 protected, not lottery protected.

There was a scenario where we could have missed the playoffs, won the lottery, and still have had to give the pick to Arizona.

 

[Ice-Tray]

The pick we traded for Chychrun was top 5 protected, not “lottery protected”.

Calgary was in the lottery and if they had won, they would have won the 7OA pick. The same pick we traded for Debrincat.

Well gosh darn!

You not only pointed out my error on the Chychrun trade (should have used Duchene), but you also pointed out the valuable distinction of using the term ‘lottery pick’ appropriately when referring to NHL hockey matters.

We didn’t trade a lottery pick for DBC, since the lottery had already occurred, which was good since had we won the lottery we would have picked in the top 3!

Nicely done!

 

[boxbox]

Semantics. Either way, we traded a high pick for a player who I don’t think we needed and didn’t end up fitting in.

But oh well. At the end of the day, him not wanting to be here saves us from potentially making another mistake. Signing him to an 8x8 deal, or even more, would have been stupid IMO. That money can be better spent

Senators were in need of improving their EV 7 PP scoring. 10 out 10 times you simply make that trade for "who" the player is,let alone checks off all the boxes on the list of what needed improvement.

How many players score 27 goals and have 60 pts in their " off year", playing on a new team and without the teams top center ...this version of the team playing at full strength was something I was excited for going forward

I've been one to support the teams GM and be satisfied with his performance. If anything, this whole situation, how it will play out and what it will finalize into, should be a good indicator of the GMs capabilities. Its not an ideal situation when a player wants to leave and hes certainly not in a position of power having been given a limited list of teams he can negotiate with but what he has to offer is a player just entering his prime and a top 20 goal scorer in the league averaging a bit under a ppg over the last 5 seasons .

 

[Tuna99]

Because he was the biggest name available at the time. Simple as that.

Biggest name they could trade for. Which is a dumb way to build your team. But Matt Duchene makes sense now. Bobby Ryan too

 

[SensHulk]

You can but a lot of players won’t commit to 8 years until , you know what city is like, teammates are like, etc.

Not disagreeing completely but aside from Matthew Tkachuk and mark stone, Huberdeau and Weegar did just that with Calgary last year

 

[HoweHullOrr]

How many years do you think these guys are willing to wait before they're submitting trade requests? They aren't going to stay in Ottawa forever if the team never makes any progress. Once players have missed the playoffs for 5 or 6 consecutive seasons it becomes increasingly difficult to sell them on the 'what if's' 2 and 3 years down the road - they've heard it all before.

I don't see why the team wasn't in a position to gamble. There is currently no prospect in the pool that you can point to and say 'that guy is going to make a big difference in the near future'. Picking at 7th overall in a fairly weak draft doesn't really change the calculus all that much.


Can't buy something if it's not for sale. Look at the players that moved via trade last summer - no top forwards with term were traded. In reality, that sort of player just doesn't move all that often. If you have a young, productive, cost-controlled forward why would you trade them for a draft choice?

Tkachuk, Huberdeau, Björkstrand, Pacioretty, Kassian, Zacha, Haula, Dach & Fiala were forwards moved (traded) in the off season last year. And then they were a slew (too many to list) that were traded later in the season or at the deadline. Some of those were likely available earlier given that their teams were willing to part with them ultimately. I didn't list any free agents either.

The young, good forward point you made was OK, but the controlled aspect is hardly the case when all he has left is one year and a $9 m QO especially when the Senators had to have known they be tight against the cap the following season.

IF in the extremely unlikely event that zero forwards that were available, then waiting would not be the disaster that you are painting. Let's not forget that they did add Giroux who obviously wanted to return to Ottawa and that the greatest need was a RD last summer. Apparently the goal wasn't the playoffs only meaningful games late in the season, so again, that seems contrary to the BFH scenario being suggested.

 

[bicboi64]

How many years do you think these guys are willing to wait before they're submitting trade requests? They aren't going to stay in Ottawa forever if the team never makes any progress. Once players have missed the playoffs for 5 or 6 consecutive seasons it becomes increasingly difficult to sell them on the 'what if's' 2 and 3 years down the road - they've heard it all before.

I don't see why the team wasn't in a position to gamble. There is currently no prospect in the pool that you can point to and say 'that guy is going to make a big difference in the near future'. Picking at 7th overall in a fairly weak draft doesn't really change the calculus all that much.

If Dorion had Giroux lined up, that's adding help that Brady and Chabot would need. If there's no deals to be made via trade, go through ufa or find another way to use capspace to strengthen your roster.

Our team was a bottom 10 team, bottom 10 teams aren't in a position to sell top 10 picks unless the return is someone cost controlled with some semblance of term. Look at Chychrun, he isn't signed long term, but $4.6 million cap hit for 2 seasons is a good deal considering what we gave up.If we don't have an extension in place for Cat, the deal is purely a rental.

The 7th overall would be our best prospect or a good trade chip for something more reasonable than 1 year of Cat.

Why keep Brown? The guy was pretty clear about his desire to bounce. Many people on here are saying that it was a mistake to trade him, but those same people would be criticizing Dorion if he kept him around for the season and let him walk as a UFA. So what is the correct thing to do? Seems like a no-win situation to me.

Personally I don't think 45 points for 5.4M is exceptional value, so in that respect I would not be very interested in Bjorkstrand. Beyond that, he has a NTC - do you think he's waiving that to come to Ottawa? I don't.

This is sort of the crux of the issue - how does a shithole market like Ottawa acquire top talent? They can't sign it on the free agent market and they can't trade for it once the player has reached UFA age and can get trade protection. So either you draft it yourself, or you step up and take a shot like they did with DeBrincat. A risk was taken and it didn't pan out. That's life.

Because Brown would be playing for a contract year. Also, losing Brown for nothing in UFA vs having to go from a 7th overall to whatever paltry package we're going to get from Cat since we don't have much leverage is a bit easier to stomach.

Bjorkstrand would be our best defensive forward, can play throughout the line up and has term. He has a modified NTC, no guarantee he says no to Ottawa and most importantly, he doesn't cost us important assets

 

[HoweHullOrr]

People sure are losing their minds over + - 10 draft spots (in a weak draft vs strong draft I might add). We are likely to recoup the equivalent of a mid to late first round pick once this trade is done.

If that doesn't happen then freak out then but until then assume that the return will be ok and accept that + - 10 draft spots was a completely reasonable gamble to take on accelerating the rebuild and giving this team an extra year of playoff experience.

It was also a completely reasonable move when considering the request for help that Brady and Chabby made as others pointed out. The core loves playing here, our team morale has come a long way and I think this move contributed to that. Not only that but it was an attempt to put the onus on the players to win. Unfortunately Norris and goaltending had other plans.

Others can be happy languishing in the rebuild, I'm happy we have a GM who is willing to take some risk in exchange for + - 10 draft spots. Honestly, that's exactly what we should want after everything we have been through.

Do I want the pick right now? Of course but there is more than one way to skin a cat and I can completely see the logic in why we took the gamble. Didn't completely work but that doesn't make PD an idiot by any stretch.

There seems to be some flip flopping or some different ideas about the goals for last season. Was it meaningful games late in the season or "playoffs" ("playoff experience")? These 2 different goals seem interchangeable at times.

Two other points:

1. Senators did sign Giroux and could certainly state they were doing something because of this.
2. A RD was identified as the biggest priority or need last summer.

 

[Beech]

This is what it comes down to. It's a results oriented business. Of course the reasoning behind the decision making process can be explained, but it didn't work out, so here we are using hindsight to assess and there's really no denying it didn't work out. Murray didn't work out. Dadonov didn't work out. Etc. etc. and the reasoning may have been solid, but at some point the guy making these calls wears it even if there was a solid case for it at the time. It's why there's really no disputing that Dorion's tenure is polarizing. Plenty of bad to go with the good.

the good is what?

a team that spent almost 4 straight seasons in the bottom 5.. That sold assets at low rates..

That benefited from SJ signing Kane and so deferring the turn over of their #1 a year.. thus a collapse and so Timmie... the year previous SJ had the 21st.. That player is a nothing.

This team has had one unreal draft year. The 2020.. One member of which (Timmie) was luck.. The others are home-runs. I give them full credit. But a blind squirrel will eventually get a nut..

one draft year had better be golden.. that 2020 year had better be the draft year to end all draft years. Before it and after it are huge questions.. Pro side deals/signing have been at best poor. At worst, outright incompetent.

in a good and bad... The good has been a spoonful, The bad a plateful. I hope that spoonful is enough to sustain.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Can't wait till Dorion and his small , tight pro scouting staff is turfed so we can have some confidence in identifying the right players to fill in this roster.

 

[aragorn]

Can't wait till Dorion and his small , tight pro scouting staff is turfed so we can have some confidence in identifying the right players to fill in this roster.

There seems to be plenty of good young players available right now who are somewhat comparable to DBC. A number of them have come out publicly & said they want to be moved. Ott has some options & could even make a bigger deal. If nothing else at least it's interesting in June.