Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Beech]

It's easy for people on the internet - with no skin in the game - to say that the Senators should have kept building, but that's not what the key players on the team wanted.

What do you do when Tkachuk and Chabot show up to their 2022 exit interviews with a list of demands? Those guys don't want to hear about how Marco Kasper or Kevin Korchinski might be pretty good 3 or 4 years down the road. They want to win now, so Dorion tried his best to facilitate that.

There was an attempt to jumpstart the process, and it made some sense to do so. The top guys wanted it, and we had nothing in the system worth waiting around for even prior to trading the 2022 and 2023 1sts. It looks like it won't work out, but that's how she goes some times.

most top 10 Dmen drafted, play by year 2 after draft. And most establish themselves as top 4 D by year 1.

Korch. could have been here the 2023/2024 season and we would not have needed Chyc. Thus saving a 12th for a different trade.

20 year old Korch. with 21 year old Sanderson, could have provided this team 2 excellent D men for another 6-8 years before they become too expensive.

This offseason, the 12 pick, could have been packaged for a quality top 6 forward. In a better trade.

Chyc. is injury prone and cost a 12th.
the Cat is small, inconsistent, one way player and cost a possible 1-2 D man.

the team did not make the playoffs last season and shelled out 9 M for the cat and is now in a corner.

Dorion is paid to make smart decisions. Not one has been.

He gave the 7th pick (chork.) after he knew the draft order.. Not a season earlier when he assumed teh team would be good, but they failed No, he knew it was a #7.

Bad move...and moves since... Thanks ti that trade, they lost a 7th and a 12th. second round picks..9 M in salary to the CAT. Possibly another 9 M this year.. Possibly losing him for nothing...

Can someone point to a positive.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Not sure if you've heard of Mark Stone but was traded and a $76 million contract was announced 3 seconds after the trade was made.

Let's see what the ADB return is, I'm just going off of Dorion's inability to fix his mistakes. Dorion gets rid of his mistakes, he does not fix them.

you don’t seem to be aware of the NHL tampering rules.

Ottawa granted Permission to Las Vegas to talk to Stone and or his agent, to help facilitate the trade once Stone decided not to sign with Ottawa

Chicago did NOT grant permission to PD, to contact DBC, before the trade was made…..

 

[Beech]

Do you honestly believe that a GM can call a player or their agent, of another team, that they’re interested in trading for, and ask them anything?



don’t forget, that Ottawa dumped a big salary on Chicago right around the same time.

yea, but a second went with him.

we paid a 7th.. a possible 1-2 d man.. and 2 seconds

we took on 9 M x 2 years. they took on 4.5 x 2 years!!!

Yikkes

 

[Golden_Jet]

most top 10 Dmen drafted, play by year 2 after draft. And most establish themselves as top 4 D by year 1.

Korch. could have been here the 2023/2024 season and we would not have needed Chyc. Thus saving a 12th for a different trade.

20 year old Korch. with 21 year old Sanderson, could have provided this team 2 excellent D men for another 6-8 years before they become too expensive.

This offseason, the 12 pick, could have been packaged for a quality top 6 forward. In a better trade.

Chyc. is injury prone and cost a 12th.
the Cat is small, inconsistent, one way player and cost a possible 1-2 D man.

the team did not make the playoffs last season and shelled out 9 M for the cat and is now in a corner.

Dorion is paid to make smart decisions. Not one has been.

He gave the 7th pick (chork.) after he knew the draft order.. Not a season earlier when he assumed teh team would be good, but they failed No, he knew it was a #7.

Bad move...and moves since... Thanks ti that trade, they lost a 7th and a 12th. second round picks..9 M in salary to the CAT. Possibly another 9 M this year.. Possibly losing him for nothing...

Can someone point to a positive.

Not likely PD takes Korch, and he wouldn’t be playing this fall either, possibly in Chicago, not likely, and definitely not in Ottawa.
Ottawa wouldn’t of taken another LD to begin with atm.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

I'd say the complaining about the complainer who complained about the complainer complaining about others complaining is the worst.

Definitely! Super annoying! LOL.

 

[Golden_Jet]

yea, but a second went with him.

we paid a 7th.. a possible 1-2 d man.. and 2 seconds

we took on 9 M x 2 years. they took on 4.5 x 2 years!!!

Yikkes

One second

 

[Beech]

One second

I though a 2024 second is also part of the deal. Or is that conditional?

 

[Golden_Jet]

I though a 2024 second is also part of the deal. Or is that conditional?

First and second in 2022
Third in 2024

 

[Senator Stanley]

Another "calculated risk" that appears to be blowing up in Dorion's face.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

You can but a lot of players won’t commit to 8 years until , you know what city is like, teammates are like, etc.

Then maybe it's better for the GM to back off from making the trade rather than losing a high overall pick? Need to calculate risk versus reward and especially in the case when PD's idea was only to play meaningful games versus a playoff run. A lot of folks including Pierre it seems thought a RD was a higher priority, or a hole in the lineup.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

It's easy for people on the internet - with no skin in the game - to say that the Senators should have kept building, but that's not what the key players on the team wanted.

What do you do when Tkachuk and Chabot show up to their 2022 exit interviews with a list of demands? Those guys don't want to hear about how Marco Kasper or Kevin Korchinski might be pretty good 3 or 4 years down the road. They want to win now, so Dorion tried his best to facilitate that.

There was an attempt to jumpstart the process, and it made some sense to do so. The top guys wanted it, and we had nothing in the system worth waiting around for even prior to trading the 2022 and 2023 1sts. It looks like it won't work out, but that's how she goes some times.

All good but then perhaps get the guy with longer term or get an extension. It doesn't seem like it was mandatory or that the only option was to get a potential one (year) and done player.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Then maybe it's better for the GM to back off from making the trade rather than losing a high overall pick? Need to calculate risk versus reward and especially in the case when PD's idea was only to play meaningful games versus a playoff run. A lot of folks including Pierre it seems thought a RD was a higher priority, or a hole in the lineup.

This is what it comes down to. It's a results oriented business. Of course the reasoning behind the decision making process can be explained, but it didn't work out, so here we are using hindsight to assess and there's really no denying it didn't work out. Murray didn't work out. Dadonov didn't work out. Etc. etc. and the reasoning may have been solid, but at some point the guy making these calls wears it even if there was a solid case for it at the time. It's why there's really no disputing that Dorion's tenure is polarizing. Plenty of bad to go with the good.

 

[LevelingSolo]

Yet another Dorion move that ends up not working out

Can't wait until new ownership cans this goofball

They're won't be anyone crying once he's gone

Highly doubt there will be any outcry for Dorion (as there was for Dubas in Toronto)

Swiftwin and Ice-Tray will be in complete shambles

 

[redbrick98]

Yet another Dorion move that ends up not working out

Can't wait until new ownership cans this goofball

Anyone ever met the guy?

Is he a odd fella? Pierre Dorion seems very awkward from afar but if anyone's met him in person ?

Yet another Dorion move that ends up not working out

Can't wait until new ownership cans this goofball


Swiftwin and Ice-Tray will be in complete shambles

Company guys

Everything the company does is and

 

[HoweHullOrr]

This is what it comes down to. It's a results oriented business. Of course the reasoning behind the decision making process can be explained, but it didn't work out, so here we are using hindsight to assess and there's really no denying it didn't work out. Murray didn't work out. Dadonov didn't work out. Etc. etc. and the reasoning may have been solid, but at some point the guy making these calls wears it even if there was a solid case for it at the time. It's why there's really no disputing that Dorion's tenure is polarizing. Plenty of bad to go with the good.

Yes, Dorion has made some good moves and not all of his moves were bad. And, Melnyk and his tight budget likely do explain some of those moves.

This Debrincat trade is somewhat reminiscent of the Duchene move. These 2 moves are easy to view negatively in the sense they weren't long term contracts. Then we get into the debate of whether they were necessary or smart given the situation at hand.

Anyhow, I hope our new owner will be rich enough to play in the free agency market more and also be able to offer signing bonuses, etc. We can hope.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Yes, Dorion has made some good moves and not all of his moves were bad. And, Melnyk and his tight budget likely do explain some of those moves.

This Debrincat trade is somewhat reminiscent on the Duchene move. These 2 moves are easy to view negatively in the sense they weren't long term. Then we get into the debate of whether they were necessary or smart given the situation at hand.

Anyhow, I hope our new owner will be rich enough to play in the free agency market more and also be able to offer signing bonuses, etc. We can hope.

Yes, the poor ownership out of the way should improve things going forward more than anything. I'm sometimes on the fence with Dorion because he has done some good things, but all in all, I think he's made too many mistakes that make me too concerned about what happens from here.

Either way, if it's Dorion or someone else as GM, I just wish it was new ownership making the call and having their vision carried out. Now it has the feeling of another placeholder season before the real direction of the franchise is fleshed out.

 

[Ice-Tray]

But complaining about the complainers is totally different?

Yes of course it is. Insufferable.

Yes, the poor ownership out of the way should improve things going forward more than anything. I'm sometimes on the fence with Dorion because he has done some good things, but all in all, I think he's made too many mistakes that make me too concerned about what happens from here.

Either way, if it's Dorion or someone else as GM, I just wish it was new ownership making the call and having their vision carried out. Now it has the feeling of another placeholder season before the real direction of the franchise is fleshed out.

I’m not sure you want ownership having a team vision beyond and entertaining style of play and winning the cup.

That sounds a lot like micromanagement.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I’m not sure you want ownership having a team vision beyond and entertaining style of play and winning the cup.

That sounds a lot like micromanagement.

No, but I want them to have the people in place that they want, whether it's Dorion or someone else and we basically know there's no chance of that at this point. It's Dorion whether they like it or not.

I'm not talking about day to day personnel, I'm talking about them deciding on the group that will be taking this team forward for years to come.

If they came in and decided that were Dorion and Co. I'd feel a little better than them coming in too late to do any assessment, make any changes, and thus head into another season with status quo from the old regime.

I know you don't think so, and a lot of the posts here on the subject are hyperbole not helping their cause to appear rational, but I am pretty convinced we'll see a GM change and a lot of change in general within the organization with new ownership.

 

[Ice-Tray]

No, but I want them to have the people in place that they want, whether it's Dorion or someone else and we basically know there's no chance of that at this point. It's Dorion whether they like it or not.

I'm not talking about day to day personnel, I'm talking about them deciding on the group that will be taking this team forward for years to come.

If they came in and decided that were Dorion and Co. I'd feel a little better than them coming in too late to do any assessment, make any changes, and thus head into another season with status quo from the old regime.

I know you don't think so, and a lot of the posts here on the subject are hyperbole not helping their cause to appear rational, but I am pretty convinced we'll see a GM change and a lot of change in general within the organization with new ownership.

Well yeah I agree

 

[Tuna99]

Fill the seats and make a buzz to increase the value of the team.
It was a marketing plan not a hockey move

Makes sense to some degree.

It’s weird though they built this team with big, hard players and go out and get a small winger with no jam to fill out the roster. Culturally it was just a weird move

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Makes sense to some degree.

It’s weird though they built this team with big, hard players and go out and get a small winger with no jam to fill out the roster. Culturally it was just a weird move

Because he was the biggest name available at the time. Simple as that.

 

[Ouroboros]

Dorion is this teams leader, if Brady and Chabot walk in tomorrow and demand anything, Dorion better listen, but he should also be the voice of reason if any player wants a rushed move.

Tell the players you will do your best, but its not like Dorion has to make a blockbuster move because Brady and Chabot have a gun to his head. You trade top 10 picks for cost controlled guys that have term or someone you know you can extend, not gamble on. We literally couldn't afford to gamble and Dorion did.

How many years do you think these guys are willing to wait before they're submitting trade requests? They aren't going to stay in Ottawa forever if the team never makes any progress. Once players have missed the playoffs for 5 or 6 consecutive seasons it becomes increasingly difficult to sell them on the 'what if's' 2 and 3 years down the road - they've heard it all before.

I don't see why the team wasn't in a position to gamble. There is currently no prospect in the pool that you can point to and say 'that guy is going to make a big difference in the near future'. Picking at 7th overall in a fairly weak draft doesn't really change the calculus all that much.

All good but then perhaps get the guy with longer term or get an extension. It doesn't seem like it was mandatory or that the only option was to get a potential one (year) and done player.

Can't buy something if it's not for sale. Look at the players that moved via trade last summer - no top forwards with term were traded. In reality, that sort of player just doesn't move all that often. If you have a young, productive, cost-controlled forward why would you trade them for a draft choice?

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

How many years do you think these guys are willing to wait before they're submitting trade requests? They aren't going to stay in Ottawa forever if the team never makes any progress. Once players have missed the playoffs for 5 or 6 consecutive seasons it becomes increasingly difficult to sell them on the 'what if's' 2 and 3 years down the road - they've heard it all before.

I don't see why the team wasn't in a position to gamble. There is currently no prospect in the pool that you can point to and say 'that guy is going to make a big difference in the near future'. Picking at 7th overall in a fairly weak draft doesn't really change the calculus all that much.


Can't buy something if it's not for sale. Look at the players that moved via trade last summer - no top forwards with term were traded. In reality, that sort of player just doesn't move all that often. If you have a young, productive, cost-controlled forward why would you trade them for a draft choice?

Bjorkstrand would have been a very smart addition. Signed with term, ideal 2nd line winger.

Getting Bjorkstrand and keeping Brown + the 7th would have been good, in hindsight.

With that said, maybe getting DBC was what Giroux needed to see to sign here. Who knows.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Makes sense to some degree.

It’s weird though they built this team with big, hard players and go out and get a small winger with no jam to fill out the roster. Culturally it was just a weird move

Eh DBC has jam. A lot more than lots of bigs players in the league to be honest.

Bjorkstrand would have been a very smart addition. Signed with term, ideal 2nd line winger.

Getting Bjorkstrand and keeping Brown + the 7th would have been good, in hindsight.

With that said, maybe getting DBC was what Giroux needed to see to sign here. Who knows.

Except Brown would have needed to be traded by the TDL or lost for nothing. He informed the team he wasn’t extending.

Do we really want to hold on to guys for an important season who have checked out?

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Eh DBC has jam. A lot more than lots of bigs players in the league to be honest.


Except Brown would have needed to be traded by the TDL or lost for nothing. He informed the team he wasn’t extending.

Do we really want to hold on to guys for an important season who have checked out?

It didn’t seem like DBC ever wanted to be here in the first place, seemed pretty upset to be moved by Chicago, so I don’t think it would have mattered. It’s not like he was thrilled to be a Senator, either. The fit was awkward from day 1.

Brown would have been playing for a payday, anyway. That would have been the motivation.

But regardless, could have not been Brown but another 3rd liner. Maybe Jesper Fast. Whoever.

Point is two players instead of one.