Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Another summer of Dorion fixing his massive mistakes - Debrincats going to traded for a lose and we have no real NHL goalie / goalies

Dorion will do something and then try and fix it in the summer of 2024

Rinse - Repeat

I’ll ask you the same question I asked another poster, in another thread….. Are you suggesting that Ottawa would have better off with Kevin Korchinski, Paul Ludwinski and next year‘s third rounder?

Please elaborate and explain what the trade for DBC was a “massive mistake”.

Also, while you’re at it, explain why the return, IF DBC is traded, will be a loss (assume you meant loss).

 

[Tuna99]

I’ll ask you the same question I asked another poster, in another thread….. Are you suggesting that Ottawa would have better off with Kevin Korchinski, Paul Ludwinski and next year‘s third rounder?

Please elaborate and explain what the trade for DBC was a “massive mistake”.

Also, while you’re at it, explain why the return, IF DBC is traded, will be a loss (assume you meant loss).

why trade away so many assets when your plan isn't to make the playoffs and you have no guarantee of an extension? Espeaciily when the GM moved the goals for the rebuild (which we all remember he's followed iron clad fist) he changed the goals of the team from 22/23 being a playoff team to 22/23 being a non-playoff team - so why trade for Debrincart when you're not in your window?

I don't think I have to defend myself - Pierre Dorion makes massive mistakes every summer. Stone trade, Zabinejed trade, Murray trade, Matt Duchene trade both ways, this is just off the top of my head.

Debrincat has done nothing for this team and he will be traded for a lose. That's Dorion's track record. He's the one without a playoff team and has to trade a 40 goal scorer

 

[Knave]

I'm so glad this playoff rental worked out. Another genius move by Dorion and wow did it pay off. We didn't lose a single playoff game.

 

[branch]

Can't wait until he is fired

The true tragedy of this drawn out sale process is that we didn't get to see him canned before the draft. Now we are stuck with this dope going into next season

 

[redbrick98]

Can't wait until he is fired

The true tragedy of this drawn out sale process is that we didn't get to see him canned before the draft. Now we are stuck with this dope going into next season

They're won't be anyone crying once he's gone

Highly doubt there will be any outcry for Dorion (as there was for Dubas in Toronto)

 

[BankStreetParade]

Can't wait until he is fired

The true tragedy of this drawn out sale process is that we didn't get to see him canned before the draft. Now we are stuck with this dope going into next season

Why don't the current owners fire him if they are unsatisfied with his work? They can name Bowness interim GM while the sale gets finalized and the new owners get their people in place.

 

[Bileur]

If Melnyk was not ready to pay Mark Stone on a long term deal then WHY THE f*** was he not traded for the best return possible? So many fireable offenses over the years.

But this shit is going to be "shot down" so quick, buckle up

The only plausible reason (aside from incompetence) is because they had to keep selling tickets in the short term at the expense of long term results.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

why trade away so many assets when your plan isn't to make the playoffs and you have no guarantee of an extension? Espeaciily when the GM moved the goals for the rebuild (which we all remember he's followed iron clad fist) he changed the goals of the team from 22/23 being a playoff team to 22/23 being a non-playoff team - so why trade for Debrincart when you're not in your window?

I don't think I have to defend myself - Pierre Dorion makes massive mistakes every summer. Stone trade, Zabinejed trade, Murray trade, Matt Duchene trade both ways, this is just off the top of my head.

Debrincat has done nothing for this team and he will be traded for a lose. That's Dorion's track record. He's the one without a playoff team and has to trade a 40 goal scorer

“why trade for Debrincart when you're not in your window?”

Because he was available and to hopefully have him, when your team‘s window opens.

Are you suggesting that GMs should only make trades, when they’re “in their window”?
If yes, how would a team get into their window?

——————————————————

Are you suggesting that Ottawa would have better off with Kevin Korchinski, Paul Ludwinski and next year‘s third rounder, instead of having DBC in the lineup for the past season?
——————————————————

How do you know IF DBC is traded, it will be for a loss? (assume you meant loss)
PD is not trading a 40 goal scorer….think DBC had 27 goals.
——————————————————-

 

[HoweHullOrr]

I’ll ask you the same question I asked another poster, in another thread….. Are you suggesting that Ottawa would have better off with Kevin Korchinski, Paul Ludwinski and next year‘s third rounder?

Please elaborate and explain what the trade for DBC was a “massive mistake”.

Also, while you’re at it, explain why the return, IF DBC is traded, will be a loss (assume you meant loss).

That's a question, but wouldn't another one be for you to project how good of a player Korchinski will be? Is it possible that Korchinski turns out to be a good NHL defender?

And we haven't seen what the return will be if Dorion moves Debrincat.

Seems like there's some unknowns here so pretty hard to make any definitive conclusions one way or another. I don't think proponents on either side of this argument can say anything conclusive right now including those that think it was a good deal.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

That's a question, but wouldn't another one be for you to project how good of a player Korchinski will be? Is it possible if Korchinski turns out to be a good NHL defender?

And we haven't seen what the return will be if Dorion moves Debrincat.

Seems like there's some unknowns here so pretty hard to make any definitive conclusions one way or another. I don't think proponents or either side of this argument can say anything conclusive right now including those that think it was a good deal.

the poster seems to know the original trade was a massive mistake, and if traded away, it will be a loss (he said “lose” but assume he meant loss).

So he is slagging PD for making the trade, even before we know where DBC ends up long term, and for whatever return from a trade he also assumes in going to be made.

It also seems that he expected PD to have known, a year ago, when the trade was made, that DBC would not have as good of a season as he did in Chicago, and the reasons (injuries) why.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

the poster seems to know the original trade was a massive mistake, and if traded away, it will be a loss (he said “lose” but assume he meant loss).

So he is slagging PD for making the trade, even before we know where DBC ends up long term, and for whatever return from a trade he also assumes in going to be made.

It also seems that he expected PD to have known, a year ago, when the trade was made, that DBC would not have as good of a season as he did in Chicago, and the reasons (injuries) why.

OK, but you didn't answer the question I asked.

I think it's too early to know and there's still some unknowns as I explained in my post. I believe that's more balanced & logical - imho of course.

I will say that I think it was a little risky and a roll of the dice for a team in a late rebuild situation to trade for a player with one year of term + a high QO. But generally, I think waiting until more is known is necessary for the final analysis.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

OK, but you didn't answer the question I asked.

I think it's too early to know and there's still some unknowns as I explained in my post. I believe that's more balanced & logical - imho of course.

I will say that I think it was a little risky and a roll of the dice for a team in a late rebuild situation to trade for a player with one year of term + a high QO. But generally, I think waiting until more is known is necessary for the final analysis.

there is a bit of risk in pretty much every trade.

PD traded three drafts picks, that would not have been players, in the Senators lineup, for probably three years at the least, most likely more IF they developed into NHL players…… and brought in an established 25 year old top six player, perhaps top 3, and can play on the first PP unit…. Right at the beginning of the window for the Senators.

the risk is that DBC may prefer, and decide to sign long term, with a USA based team…… there is no way PD could have known this a year ago, and that was a gamble he was willing to take.

so until PD announces a contract extension or a trade, we should just wait to see how this all plays out.

 

[JD1]

so until PD announces a contract extension or a trade, we should just wait to see how this all plays out.

But what about all the repititive bitching we'd miss out on?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

But what about all the repetitive bitching we'd miss out on?

Oh I’m sure we can find another topic to get our knickers in a knot about.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

But what about all the repititive bitching we'd miss out on?

Don't worry, you're filling that gap already with this post!

 

[Knave]

People are analyzing individual trades to death. It's the picture painted by all these trades that matters when you evaluate a GM.

The facts are Dorion traded most of our short term and near term assets and we failed to make the playoffs. Now a top 6 forward might be about to walk (or get traded).

Those two sentences should say it all for anyone who cheers for the Ottawa Senators and wants them to make the playoffs. Dorion is not the right man for this job.

 

[Tuna99]

“why trade for Debrincart when you're not in your window?”

Because he was available and to hopefully have him, when your team‘s window opens.

Are you suggesting that GMs should only make trades, when they’re “in their window”?
If yes, how would a team get into their window?

——————————————————

Are you suggesting that Ottawa would have better off with Kevin Korchinski, Paul Ludwinski and next year‘s third rounder, instead of having DBC in the lineup for the past season?
——————————————————

How do you know IF DBC is traded, it will be for a loss? (assume you meant loss)
PD is not trading a 40 goal scorer….think DBC had 27 goals.
——————————————————-

I don't know if you have a point, if you do - make the point why the Debrincat trade was good and meaningful to this team. And once you do that, why trade him away this summer?

 

[HoweHullOrr]

there is a bit of risk in pretty much every trade.

PD traded three drafts picks, that would not have been players, in the Senators lineup, for probably three years at the least, most likely more IF they developed into NHL players…… and brought in an established 25 year old top six player, perhaps top 3, and can play on the first PP unit…. Right at the beginning of the window for the Senators.

the risk is that DBC may prefer, and decide to sign long term, with a USA based team…… there is no way PD could have known this a year ago, and that was a gamble he was willing to take.

so until PD announces a contract extension or a trade, we should just wait to see how this all plays out.

It might take 3 years, yes. It might be less. That's just an assumption.

But, the Senators will need cheap ELCs to fill slots or voids in the future especially as some of the good young players will eventually need to get paid e.g., Sanderson. So, its hardly an unnecessary luxury to have high overall draft picks that statistically often turn into good NHL players when they are drafted that high.

But, besides the less important side issues, now we get to the most important points. I've often heard posters in here say that the team (& fans) wasn't expecting playoffs this year, but just to play meaningful games late in the season. So, if that is the case, then what was the big hurry to get a player for the 2022-23 season? People need to be consistent versus contradictory with their points/arguments.

I'm not really buying the idea that Pierre was in the dark and couldn't have known or suspected what could happen. It seems rather naive imho. There's something called a "trial close" in sales. You send a contract over and ask for a signature. Or even just asking the player if he would sign now (then send the contract as a follow up). But, Pierre said he didn't even ask or discuss this with Debrincat. And many Americans would prefer to live in the United States. That's hardly an unknown for any semi aware person.

I do agree with one point in your post and that's the last sentence. Yes, we will have to wait to see what the return from a trade will be (if Debrincat doesn't sign with the Senators).

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Don't worry, you're filling that gap already with this post!

But complaining about the complainers is totally different?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I don't know if you have a point, if you do - make the point why the Debrincat trade was good and meaningful to this team. And once you do that, why trade him away this summer?

you pondered why PD traded away three draft picks, without a garentee of DBC signing an extension……..

could you explain how PD would have gotten this guarantee?

 

[bert]

Why don't the current owners fire him if they are unsatisfied with his work? They can name Bowness interim GM while the sale gets finalized and the new owners get their people in place.

That would be ideal.

 

[Loach]

you pondered why PD traded away three draft picks, without a garentee of DBC signing an extension……..

could you explain how PD would have gotten this guarantee?

Answer Tuna first. You don't get to make people explain all the time. Your turn.

 

[Tuna99]

you pondered why PD traded away three draft picks, without a garentee of DBC signing an extension……..

could you explain how PD would have gotten this guarantee?

call his agent long distance on the free company phone

 

[Golden_Jet]

call his agent long distance on the free company phone

You can but a lot of players won’t commit to 8 years until , you know what city is like, teammates are like, etc.

 

[Beech]

That's a question, but wouldn't another one be for you to project how good of a player Korchinski will be? Is it possible that Korchinski turns out to be a good NHL defender?

And we haven't seen what the return will be if Dorion moves Debrincat.

Seems like there's some unknowns here so pretty hard to make any definitive conclusions one way or another. I don't think proponents on either side of this argument can say anything conclusive right now including those that think it was a good deal.

Since 2015.. top 10 picked defensemen, with only 3 exceptions, have developed into star D men.

from 2015-2020... 6 years.. 16 dmen taken in the top 10...3 failed...13 are stars.. of the 3 failures, 2 have actually played games, but are seen as 5/6 dmen.

Korch.
has a 13 in 16 chance of being a star. ~ 81.25%
has a 2/16 chance of becoming a 5-6 Dman ~ 12.5%
has a 1/16 chance of being a complete bust ~ 6.25%

Essentially the debate on what the Sens gave up is no debate. They, for all intensive purposes, traded a star D man for DBc.

If DBC stays, he better, and I mean better become a consistent 40 goal man,,,, and does well in the playoffs. If he is traded away, he better fetch a quality player, on par with a star Dman.

otherwise that trade will be a huge mistake.