Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Hale The Villain]

So to summarize
Great signings is making a mountain out of a molehill,
And Shite signings are a bumbling GM.

Yet Matthew’s only got 5 years at 11.6 with a 63 point season, since he signed during his third year.

See the hypocrisy now.

Great signings would be convincing them that their market value on a long-term deal coming off of 36P/56GP and 58P/79GP seasons was significantly less over 8M per.

Throwing 50M+ at these guys before they even broke out as stars isn't the incredible accomplishment you think it is.

Blues locked up Thomas and Kyrou on similar contracts coming off of PPG seasons.

RFAs aren't hard to lock up long-term if you offer huge money. There's a reason the Matthews/Marner contracts got as much deserved criticism as they received. They aren't the norm.

 

[Hale The Villain]

So if hes done a "fairly good job" in Detriot, which sounds pretty rosey considering all the meh draft picks and UFA signings, and the lack of high end talent going forward. Then how has Dorion done in your opinion?

He's drafted Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson and Kasper with his top picks - all of whom look like good selections. Don't know about Cossa over Wallstedt though.

Their day 2 drafting has been less good, but Wallinder, Soderblom, Mazur, Buchelnikov are all trending very well, but again, GMs aren't generally responsible for day 2 selections.

I think my opinion on Dorion's tenure has been made quite clear over the years. Won't bother repeating all of my previous arguments.

 

[Samsquanch]

He's drafted Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson and Kasper with his top picks - all of whom look like good selections. Don't know about Cossa over Wallstedt though.

Their day 2 drafting has been less good, but Wallinder, Soderblom, Mazur, Buchelnikov are all trending very well, but again, GMs aren't generally responsible for day 2 selections.

I think my opinion on Dorion's tenure has been made quite clear over the years. Won't bother repeating all of my previous arguments.

Again your twisting the reality to suit your own narrative. I swear to god, and I'll try to say this in the nicest way, Dorion/Melnyk broke some of your brains.

How you can possibly be complimentary of Yzerman right now (still today) and also think Dorion is clueless bumbling fool is beyond me when the proof is right friggin there for you to see. Ottawa is superior in every way to Detroit.

I would probably take Ottawas one draft in 2020 over all of Yzermans in Detroit combined.... That team isn't going anywhere with the players he drafted.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Great signings would be convincing them that their market value on a long-term deal coming off of 36P/56GP and 58P/79GP seasons was significantly less over 8M per.

Throwing 50M+ at these guys before they even broke out as stars isn't the incredible accomplishment you think it is.

Blues locked up Thomas and Kyrou on similar contracts coming off of PPG seasons.

RFAs aren't hard to lock up long-term if you offer huge money. There's a reason the Matthews/Marner contracts got as much deserved criticism as they received. They aren't the norm.

Your point would make sense , if a bridge deal, not an 8 year deal. If signed a bridge, then we’d be looking at much more, especially for Stutzle, since one of only a few players to put 90 points as a 20/21 year old.

Kyrou was drafted the year before Sens went to Conference finals and Thomas just after elimination in Conference finals, so older players, and more years in the league.

So ya looking like PD made some good signings there, kinda weird you don’t like them tbh, or it’s just hating on PD.
Need to look at good and bad.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Again your twisting the reality to suit your own narrative. I swear to god, and I'll try to say this in the nicest way, Dorion/Melnyk broke some of your brains.

How you can possibly be complimentary of Yzerman right now (still today) and also think Dorion is clueless bumbling fool is beyond me when the proof is right friggin there for you to see. Ottawa is superior in every way to Detroit.

I would probably take Ottawas one draft in 2020 over all of Yzermans in Detroit. That team isn't going anywhere with the players he drafted.

Other than just saying Yzerman been terrible I would love to see you examine the significant moves he's made and explain why he's been so bad.

I just looked at his trade history and almost every trade of consequence he's made has been a win.

You seem to be blaming him for Detroit's franchise being in an extremely rough shape when he took over in April 2019. I would take our team no question over the Wings, but you can't ignore that he took over a team in terrible shape and didn't exactly have a prime EK, Stone and Duchene to trade to help rebuild the team.

 

[Samsquanch]

Other than just saying Yzerman been terrible I would love to see you examine the significant moves he's made and explain why he's been so bad.

I just looked at his trade history and almost every trade of consequence he's made has been a win.

You seem to be blaming him for Detroit's franchise being in an extremely rough shape when he took over in April 2019. I would take our team no question over the Wings, but you can't ignore that he took over a team in terrible shape and didn't exactly have a prime EK, Stone and Duchene to trade to help rebuild the team.

I've already given several reasons.

His drafting record is very terrible thus far. I don't agree with you that Raymond and Kasper are good picks at all. We agree at least his 2nd round + is very bad thus far.

And despite what you say, he builds the scouting team around him that make the picks. It's all on him though at the end of the day. He gets credit for the late picks in TB (Kuch, Point, ect) does he not? And so does this mean that Dorion gets extra blame from you for our missed picks because he's actually a scout that goes out himself lmfao? While old Stevey gets to plead the 5th and pretend he had no idea what was up when they miss . Good lord , we already know what your answer is on that too...

His UFA signings would have absolutely buried the Senators, and they would be hurting the Red Wings if not for the fact that they don't really have any good young players kicking down the door anyways..m Like a Pinto or Greig. So they need the warm bodies I guess? literally none of his UFAs would be welcome on our roster at their price tag though, and Dorion would have been crucified for any one of them.

So yeah anyways, his UFA signings suck balls mostly because that team should have been more focused on getting high end talent from the draft. They didn't get it while they were at the bottom during their rebuild, unfortunately for them.

And they haven't got that high end talent through all of these magical trades of his that you keep raving about either. DeBrincat and JC are miles better and in multiple tiers ahead of anyone that Yzerman has acquired. They would both be amongst Detroit's very best players at top of their roster. Does Larkin, Raymond, Kasper really scare anyone going forward lol?

He had all of the assets he needed to make big trades if he wanted to. Same as Dorion. Larkin himself was/is likely more valuable than pending UFAs Stone and Karlsson ever were. Great players have been available over the last 4 years. Yzerman made his choices, and he had options if he didn't like his teams look.

Detroit is a team with no identity and no direction. That roster looks and feels like it's been slapped together with no general thought process behind it. Look at all of the smallish forwards they drafted that arent even very dynamic scorers. That's why he sucks right now.

 

[swiftwin]

I didnt say major. We will need some needle moving depth.

Im not saying he cant but an inherited roster adding 3 4th line/press box guys isnt convincing me.

Condon was a nice add. It was unfortunate he fall apart and he and Andy contributed to the collapse so much the following year after getting their money and term.

Again though, one season of an almost entirely inherited roster just isnt enough evidence. He really struggled the summer after that unable to remotely replace the losses, and while he had tough circumstances through the rebuild, not much positive to point to for the money tossed around.

Ok, so to be clear: In 2017, Dorion inherited a solid core of players that failed to make the playoffs in 2016 (thanks in large part to injuries, including the #1C Turris), made a few depth additions, including a goalie, and a new coach and took the team to the ECF.

How is that any different to the present situation?? Dorion is heading into 2024 with a solid core that failed to make the playoffs in 2023 (thanks in large part to injuries, including the #1C Norris), needs to make some depth additions, including a goalie and potentially a new coach.

People are simultaneously arguing that Dorion has proven he can rebuild a solid core of players, but can't take them over the top, while also arguing that in 2017 the team only had a deep run because of the core of players he inherited (which had missed the playoffs the previous year). Which one is it?!?!

 

[swiftwin]

You have to wonder what exactly brings people to keep comparing apples and oranges.

Teams usually go into a rebuild because they have a dry prospect pool and aging vets with declining value. We went into the rebuild with :

Erik Karlsson (27 y/o)
Mark Stone (25 y/o)
Matt Duchene (27 y/o)
JG Pageau (25 y/o)
Mike Hoffman (28 y/o)
Ryan Dzingel (25 y/o)
Derrick Brassard (30 y/o)
Cody Ceci (24 y/o)
Thomas Chabot (21 y/o)
Drake Batherson (19 y/o)
Alex Formenton (18 y/o)
Nick Paul (22 y/o)
Colin White (21 y/o)

Not to mention all the promising prospects who didn't pan out (Logan Brown, Chlapik, Wolanin, goalie prospects, etc)

If you can't see the difference with "usual rebuilds", you have no business trying to be in this debate



IF we make the playoffs, that will have taken 7 years, even if we missed just 6 seasons in the end

This semantic masturbation is a prime example of what you guys have been doing. It's a bit ridiculous but nobody is going to complain as you guys are quite entertaining. The length some people are ready to go to defend a complete stranger's work is something else.



You keep ridiculing the fact that Balcers has been brought up to show how terrible our pro scouting is (among a myriad of other examples, that keep getting ignored for some reason!) but let's look at this :



If he can stop getting injured all the time, he'll be back and make valuable contributions to a hockey team.

But even if he is nothing special, he still would have outplayed several of those bad NHL players that Dorion brought up for the 2020-21 season, which is exhibit #33 as to why our pro scouting is terrible

During a rebuild, who the hell waves a 22 y/o prospect who has had success at the AHL and international level over washed up players like Paquette, Anisimov and Galchenyuk? The answer is Pierre Dorion.

You can't round up at one end and round down at one at the other end.

That, plus you still dying on that Balcers hill shows how freakishly obsessed you are with Dorion. Nobody else is playing Balcers right now! Why aren't you going after the 31 other general managers?!?!

 

[Ouroboros]

The Balcers discourse is insane, but I have to admit I am utterly fascinated by it. He's the perfect catnip for my shitposts because his name is irresistible to certain people; he is the emblem for all that is wrong with Pierre Dorion!

I think it illustrates that there are people on here that are pathologically incapable of admitting when they're wrong. Every team that has ever had Rudy Balcers couldn't get rid of him quick enough. The Sens waived him. The Sharks waived him and bought him out of an essentially league-minimum contract. Florida signed him to a league-minimum contract and then waived him a dozen games in. Tampa claimed him and then waived him after 3 games. Yet somehow I'm meant to believe that this is a guy primed to make 'valuable contributions' to an NHL team? Sure thing. He's trash, and all the JFresh cards in the world can't change it.

There was a belief among certain people that the Sens were going to rebuild with guys like Rudy Balcers, Logan Brown, Christian Wolanin, Christian Jaros, Filip Chlapik, Vitaly Abramov, Jonathan Davidsson, Max Lajoie, and Joey Daccord. They thought these guys were going to be part of the future, and it broke their brains when it started to become clear that this was not going to be the case. This is basically ground zero for Dorion Derangement Syndrome.

A lot of this comes down to not really being prepared for what a rebuild was actually going to entail. A lot of people have this fantasy about a team full of plucky underdogs that keep games close and are always competitive, largely on the backs of their own drafted prospects who all develop flawlessly. But the attrition rate on mediocre mid-round calibre prospects is higher than most people think. The reality is that no team can produce that much talent in that short of a time frame, so the holes get filled by bad veteran placeholders - plugs with character. You lose 50 games a year and many of them aren't close at all. It's miserable to watch, and it's not unusual to take the better part of a decade to get beyond it.

 

[DJB]

I made a post a few days maybe a week ago pointing out in my opinion I doubt the Sens contacted Dubas because it didn’t make sense with the uncertain new ownership group.

I was told that we did indeed make a call to the Dubas camp but I’m not sure the extent of those conversations or who made the call as well.

Interesting nonetheless

 

[Que]

The Balcers discourse is insane, but I have to admit I am utterly fascinated by it. He's the perfect catnip for my shitposts because his name is irresistible to certain people; he is the emblem for all that is wrong with Pierre Dorion!

I think it illustrates that there are people on here that are pathologically incapable of admitting when they're wrong. Every team that has ever had Rudy Balcers couldn't get rid of him quick enough. The Sens waived him. The Sharks waived him and bought him out of an essentially league-minimum contract. Florida signed him to a league-minimum contract and then waived him a dozen games in. Tampa claimed him and then waived him after 3 games. Yet somehow I'm meant to believe that this is a guy primed to make 'valuable contributions' to an NHL team? Sure thing. He's trash, and all the JFresh cards in the world can't change it.

There was a belief among certain people that the Sens were going to rebuild with guys like Rudy Balcers, Logan Brown, Christian Wolanin, Christian Jaros, Filip Chlapik, Vitaly Abramov, Jonathan Davidsson, Max Lajoie, and Joey Daccord. They thought these guys were going to be part of the future, and it broke their brains when it started to become clear that this was not going to be the case. This is basically ground zero for Dorion Derangement Syndrome.

A lot of this comes down to not really being prepared for what a rebuild was actually going to entail. A lot of people have this fantasy about a team full of plucky underdogs that keep games close and are always competitive, largely on the backs of their own drafted prospects who all develop flawlessly. But the attrition rate on mediocre mid-round calibre prospects is higher than most people think. The reality is that no team can produce that much talent in that short of a time frame, so the holes get filled by bad veteran placeholders - plugs with character. You lose 50 games a year and many of them aren't close at all. It's miserable to watch, and it's not unusual to take the better part of a decade to get beyond it.

Such a good post. Laughs and logic.

As fans we often look at the team with rose coloured glasses and tunnel vision gaze. We miss the behind the scenes stuff and lose focus of the bigger picture. Often putting players on pedestals as a way to rationalize the pain of being non-competitive.

Losing sucks but rebuilds are literal wasted years. It can literally rip the spirit of the game right out of your soul. And that’s just as a fan, imagine being the guys in the room.

I watched 81 games this year and even though we didn’t make the dance I was the most entertained I’ve been since ‘17 and the most hope I’ve had since ‘04.

We are on the other side of it now.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Man, if Dorion is still around in training camp and I have to hear him make some wishy-washy non sensical prediction for the 2023 season like “we’re hopeful that we’ll be thinking about our chances to possibly make the playoffs near the trade deadline “ … well, I’ll be frustrated by that.

The have already stated that playoffs is the goal next season.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

The have already stated that playoffs is the goal next season.

When was that? I thought he explicitly did not say that at the end of season media availability. Can you post the link?

 

[Golden_Jet]

When was that? I thought he explicitly did not say that at the end of season media availability. Can you post the link?

Could have been a podcast?
Giroux and Chabot said it, remember hearing that on a podcast or radio.

 

[Ice-Tray]

When was that? I thought he explicitly did not say that at the end of season media availability. Can you post the link?

No I think you’re right. He definitely said that he’d set goals for next season if he’s still around in September and didn’t commit in the end of season interview. I think that was upsetting in here if I remember correctly.

It may have just come from the players in interviews that I’m thinking of.

 

[bert]

Yzerman to me has always been a mixed bag

I like Seider but that's some pretty extreme hyperbole. He's certainly a great pick, but biggest homeruns of all time?

Tbays drafting under him is also pretty interesting, the picks the GM is likely to have the most influence on are some of his worst in tbay, Connolly at 6th, Koekoek at 10th, Drouin at 3rd, DeAngelo at 19, Howden at 27, Foote at 14. In 8 years as GM he's got one big win in Vasilevski, and a decent pick in Namestnikov, and a bunch of Meh.

Cooper was a great hire to be sure, and he's made some good trades like landing Sergachev and McDonagh, but his real success was in his scouts finding elite talent outside of the first in Kucherov, Point adding to the two franchise players he inherited in Hedman and Stamkos. How far does he get and what winning culture does he build without those 4, which he likely had very little influence on.

It will be interesting to see how things play out in Detroit, I like Edvinsson, Raymond seems like he'll be good, but they have a lot of work to do imo.

This isnt remotely accurate about his draft history you are purposely omitting his best picks. He drafted Kucherov, Palat, Point...... Found players like Tyler Johnson, Turned Drouin into Sergachev. Howden at 27 is an NHL player... Just scored an o.t winner in the WCF thats a good pick at 27. Deagelo ended up being a very good player too. Koekoek while not great was an NHL player too, reason he wasnt better was his inability to eat. Connolly was a miss ill give you that one.

Every draft board had Seider in the late teens he took him 6th and he is the second best player in the draft only behind Jack Hughes. How is that Hyperbole? Players like him are few and far between. He is a franchise D man. Who else can do what he does? He is a unicorn.

 

[Cosmix]

He would be responsible for hiring the next GM. As well as responsible for other hockey ops hires. I just don’t see Dorion gone this summer

Other than hiring a GM, why would the GM not hire other hockey ops staff?

 

[Sens Vader]

Other than hiring a GM, why would the GM not hire other hockey ops staff?

Because the POHO is at the highest chain of command, below ownership

 

[Micklebot]

This isnt remotely accurate about his draft history you are purposely omitting his best picks. He drafted Kucherov, Palat, Point...... Found players like Tyler Johnson, Turned Drouin into Sergachev. Howden at 27 is an NHL player... Just scored an o.t winner in the WCF thats a good pick at 27. Deagelo ended up being a very good player too. Koekoek while not great was an NHL player too, reason he wasnt better was his inability to eat. Connolly was a miss ill give you that one.

Every draft board had Seider in the late teens he took him 6th and he is the second best player in the draft only behind Jack Hughes. How is that Hyperbole? Players like him are few and far between. He is a franchise D man. Who else can do what he does? He is a unicorn.

Yes, I'm sure Yzerman was heavily vested in who they picked outside of the first... the team drafted well, their first round however, where GMs tend to be more involved was lackluster in Tbay.

No, every draft board didn't have Seider in the late teens, McKenzie had him 16th, cam at Dobbers had him 13, Hockey prospect had him 10th. Yes, it is hyperbole that Seider is one on the biggest homeruns of all time. Great pick, sure, but there were far bigger home runs over the years, hell, you named one in Kucherov, Yzerman played with a couple in Datsyuk and Zetterberg, leagues been around longer than the last 5 years...

 

[Cosmix]

Because the POHO is at the highest chain of command, below ownership

A POHO is usually not the highest level executive. The highest level is usually titled "President" and all other executives report to him including the GM, Chief Financial Officer, etc.

 

[Sens Vader]

A POHO is usually not the highest level executive. The highest level is usually titled "President" and all other executives report to him including the GM, Chief Financial Officer, etc.

I’m confused, a POHO has the President Title - they are the President of Hockey Operations

They are above the GM for all hockey ops decisions

 

[Golden_Jet]

I’m confused, a POHO has the President Title

They are above the GM for all hockey ops decisions

Depending on how businesses use titles, is what poster is saying, usually depends on size of business.

There could be a president of marketing, or some may use VP of marketing.
President of Sales etc

Poster is saying in this case, President of Hockey Ops reports to President of the Ottawa Senators.

Obviously none of us know how the hierarchy will unfold.
So one of you could be right, no one knows yet.

 

[Sens Vader]

Depending on how businesses use titles, is what poster is saying, usually depends on size of business.

There could be a president of marketing, or some may use VP of marketing.
President of Sales etc

Poster is saying in this case, President of Hockey Ops reports to President of the Ottawa Senators.

Obviously none of us know how the hierarchy will unfold.
So one of you could be right, no one knows yet.

But wouldnt the POHO’s be specifically responsible for the hiring of a GM and other hockey ops staff? As they oversea the hockey ops department

That was my understanding. They would be the highest chain of command with regards to hockey decisions

 

[Golden_Jet]

But wouldnt the POHO’s be specifically responsible for the hiring of a GM and other hockey ops staff? As they oversea the hockey ops department

That was my understanding

I agree with that, yes in general.

Unless a company has to many layers of management, then could change, but I doubt it , in this case.

So ya I’d agree .

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

The Balcers discourse is insane, but I have to admit I am utterly fascinated by it. He's the perfect catnip for my shitposts because his name is irresistible to certain people; he is the emblem for all that is wrong with Pierre Dorion!

I think it illustrates that there are people on here that are pathologically incapable of admitting when they're wrong. Every team that has ever had Rudy Balcers couldn't get rid of him quick enough. The Sens waived him. The Sharks waived him and bought him out of an essentially league-minimum contract. Florida signed him to a league-minimum contract and then waived him a dozen games in. Tampa claimed him and then waived him after 3 games. Yet somehow I'm meant to believe that this is a guy primed to make 'valuable contributions' to an NHL team? Sure thing. He's trash, and all the JFresh cards in the world can't change it.

There was a belief among certain people that the Sens were going to rebuild with guys like Rudy Balcers, Logan Brown, Christian Wolanin, Christian Jaros, Filip Chlapik, Vitaly Abramov, Jonathan Davidsson, Max Lajoie, and Joey Daccord. They thought these guys were going to be part of the future, and it broke their brains when it started to become clear that this was not going to be the case. This is basically ground zero for Dorion Derangement Syndrome.

A lot of this comes down to not really being prepared for what a rebuild was actually going to entail. A lot of people have this fantasy about a team full of plucky underdogs that keep games close and are always competitive, largely on the backs of their own drafted prospects who all develop flawlessly. But the attrition rate on mediocre mid-round calibre prospects is higher than most people think. The reality is that no team can produce that much talent in that short of a time frame, so the holes get filled by bad veteran placeholders - plugs with character. You lose 50 games a year and many of them aren't close at all. It's miserable to watch, and it's not unusual to take the better part of a decade to get beyond it.

Interesting post. Also kind of a backhanded way of saying this team doesn't draft nearly as well as we think.