Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Cosmix]

Exactly. We don't need any major "needle movers" right now. The core of this team is solid. We need to add depth players who "play admirably".

We need to improve the goaltending, which is regarded as a key position by many, and would "push the needle" in the right direction.

I highly doubt Dorion is let go, but I think having the POHO position filled is most likely once new ownership is in

Why hire a POHO? What need would he fulfil?

He'll be let go. It probably won't happen this summer due to the ownership delays but there is a chance it will, He is a dead man walking.

I think the new owners will act quickly; they will not wait.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

We need to improve the goaltending, which is regarded as a key position by many, and would "push the needle" in the right direction.

Move the needle on
Goals Against
Road record
Ability to rely on depth

 

[swiftwin]

We need to improve the goaltending, which is regarded as a key position by many, and would "push the needle" in the right direction.

So like 2017 when our starting goalie was on leave for most of the season, and our backup got hurt? Dorion made the right move at goaltending to save the season.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

He'll be let go. It probably won't happen this summer due to the ownership delays but there is a chance it will, He is a dead man walking.

Naw... they make the playoffs, and get a few more big signings. No one fires him. He is well respected in the league.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Naw... they make the playoffs, and get a few more big signings. No one fires him. He is well respected in the league.

I'll bet you a popsicle.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I'll bet you a popsicle.

a double banana one from Perettes?

 

[Cosmix]

So like 2017 when our starting goalie was on leave for most of the season, and our backup got hurt? Dorion made the right move at goaltending to save the season.

The team had 3.3 goals scored against per game in. 2022-23. That needs to be improved next season to get into the playoffs. A better goaltender would help achieve that. Better defensive play by the 5 players on the ice would also help.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

a double banana one from Perettes?

No promises on Perrettes

 

[Sens Vader]

We need to improve the goaltending, which is regarded as a key position by many, and would "push the needle" in the right direction.


Why hire a POHO? What need would he fulfil?


I think the new owners will act quickly; they will not wait.

He would be responsible for hiring the next GM. As well as responsible for other hockey ops hires. I just don’t see Dorion gone this summer

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

He would be responsible for hiring the next GM. As well as responsible for other hockey ops hires. I just don’t see Dorion gone this summer

Man, if Dorion is still around in training camp and I have to hear him make some wishy-washy non sensical prediction for the 2023 season like “we’re hopeful that we’ll be thinking about our chances to possibly make the playoffs near the trade deadline “ … well, I’ll be frustrated by that.

 

[Xspyrit]

You have to wonder what exactly brings people to keep comparing apples and oranges.

Teams usually go into a rebuild because they have a dry prospect pool and aging vets with declining value. We went into the rebuild with :

Erik Karlsson (27 y/o)
Mark Stone (25 y/o)
Matt Duchene (27 y/o)
JG Pageau (25 y/o)
Mike Hoffman (28 y/o)
Ryan Dzingel (25 y/o)
Derrick Brassard (30 y/o)
Cody Ceci (24 y/o)
Thomas Chabot (21 y/o)
Drake Batherson (19 y/o)
Alex Formenton (18 y/o)
Nick Paul (22 y/o)
Colin White (21 y/o)

Not to mention all the promising prospects who didn't pan out (Logan Brown, Chlapik, Wolanin, goalie prospects, etc)

If you can't see the difference with "usual rebuilds", you have no business trying to be in this debate

If we make the playoffs next year, that means we'll have played well enough the whole season to no longer be considered "in a rebuild".

It also means we would have missed the playoffs 6 seasons.

Count them:

2017
2018
2019
2020
2021
2022
2023
2024

That's 6 seasons.

Learn to count.

IF we make the playoffs, that will have taken 7 years, even if we missed just 6 seasons in the end

This semantic masturbation is a prime example of what you guys have been doing. It's a bit ridiculous but nobody is going to complain as you guys are quite entertaining. The length some people are ready to go to defend a complete stranger's work is something else.

Rebuilding is difficult, and unless you win a draft lottery with a mega-talent at the top [Rudy Balcers, for example] or are one of the handful of desirable markets that can attract elite talent for non hockey reasons [NYR, Vegas, Tampa, etc.], it takes a long time

You keep ridiculing the fact that Balcers has been brought up to show how terrible our pro scouting is (among a myriad of other examples, that keep getting ignored for some reason!) but let's look at this :



If he can stop getting injured all the time, he'll be back and make valuable contributions to a hockey team.

But even if he is nothing special, he still would have outplayed several of those bad NHL players that Dorion brought up for the 2020-21 season, which is exhibit #33 as to why our pro scouting is terrible

During a rebuild, who the hell waves a 22 y/o prospect who has had success at the AHL and international level over washed up players like Paquette, Anisimov and Galchenyuk? The answer is Pierre Dorion.

 

[Xspyrit]

Well I’ll take your word for it, but it at least appears as though you’re having a hard time letting go of past grievances.

Whatever, have a great summer. New season is coming.

I have buried a lot of important people before I reached 40 y/o, that's grievance. Hockey is an entertainment, there is no grievance here. I want my team to be good, I want to see Chabot be something else than a "loser". I am going to be there next season no matter what with a new hope. The problem is we could have progressed much more the last 2-3 years and be farther in the process of becoming a contender but IMO the decisions have been far from optimal. There is not a lot of space for error in a competitive league like that.

Have a great summer too!

 

[Hale The Villain]

I swear to god if Yzerman wasn't a god in Detroit, or if his TB scouts hadn't hit so big on so many players for him, I wonder how badly people would be cutting him up for his team in Detroit today?

Seriously. Go look at all of his drafts and try not to puke a bit. It's so depressing considering how bad they were over the same stretch as we were. It's not just the high picks they lost out on in the lottery that's killing them, they are striking out all over the board when it comes to finding core players.

And his FA signings and trades are even less impressive than his picks somehow. This team is going to have to rebuild again before it ever even got started. I see no future where that core can hang with the rest of the Atlantic.

This is not an endorsement for Dorion, but holy mother of God he's built a far superior team in every way to what is considered be an "elite" GM. And he did it on a shoe string budget.

He's not considered an elite GM for what he has done for Detroit, it's because he helped build a Lighting team that won two cups.

Dorian did good... Is good

People are making a mountain out of a molehill with those signings.

It's not exactly an incredible accomplishment to to sign an RFA coming off of a 36P/56GP season to a 8.2M x 7YR deal. Same goes for 8.35M x 8YRs for Stutzle after a 58P season.

Pretty routine to lock up RFAs long-term, especially if you're offering 8M+ to guys who hadn't yet broken out as stars.

RFAs negotiating their way to shorter extensions like Matthews and Marner did are the exception, not the rule.

 

[Golden_Jet]

You have to wonder what exactly brings people to keep comparing apples and oranges.

Teams usually go into a rebuild because they have a dry prospect pool and aging vets with declining value. We went into the rebuild with :

Erik Karlsson (27 y/o)
Mark Stone (25 y/o)
Matt Duchene (27 y/o)
JG Pageau (25 y/o)
Mike Hoffman (28 y/o)
Ryan Dzingel (25 y/o)
Derrick Brassard (30 y/o)
Cody Ceci (24 y/o)
Thomas Chabot (21 y/o)
Drake Batherson (19 y/o)
Alex Formenton (18 y/o)
Nick Paul (22 y/o)
Colin White (21 y/o)

Not to mention all the promising prospects who didn't pan out (Logan Brown, Chlapik, Wolanin, goalie prospects, etc)

If you can't see the difference with "usual rebuilds", you have no business trying to be in this debate



IF we make the playoffs, that will have taken 7 years, even if we missed just 6 seasons in the end

This semantic masturbation is a prime example of what you guys have been doing. It's a bit ridiculous but nobody is going to complain as you guys are quite entertaining. The length some people are ready to go to defend a complete stranger's work is something else.



You keep ridiculing the fact that Balcers has been brought up to show how terrible our pro scouting is (among a myriad of other examples, that keep getting ignored for some reason!) but let's look at this :



If he can stop getting injured all the time, he'll be back and make valuable contributions to a hockey team.

But even if he is nothing special, he still would have outplayed several of those bad NHL players that Dorion brought up for the 2020-21 season, which is exhibit #33 as to why our pro scouting is terrible

During a rebuild, who the hell waves a 22 y/o prospect who has had success at the AHL and international level over washed up players like Paquette, Anisimov and Galchenyuk? The answer is Pierre Dorion.

We had this owner called Eugene Melnyk, or have you forgotten already. He wasn’t paying those guys.

 

[Golden_Jet]

He's not considered an elite GM for what he has done for Detroit, it's because he helped build a Lighting team that won two cups.



People are making a mountain out of a molehill with those signings.

It's not exactly an incredible accomplishment to to sign an RFA coming off of a 36P/56GP season to a 8.2M x 7YR deal. Same goes for 8.35M x 8YRs for Stutzle after a 58P season.

Pretty routine to lock up RFAs long-term, especially if you're offering 8M+ to guys who hadn't yet broken out as stars.

RFAs negotiating their way to shorter extensions like Matthews and Marner did are the exception, not the rule.

So to summarize
Great signings is making a mountain out of a molehill,
And Shite signings are a bumbling GM.

Yet Matthew’s only got 5 years at 11.6 with a 63 point season, since he signed during his third year.

See the hypocrisy now.

 

[Xspyrit]

We had this owner called Eugene Melnyk, or have you forgotten already. He wasn’t paying those guys.

And I was talking about the reason(s) as to why we went into a rebuild? You seem to be easily overwhelmed.

 

[JungleBeat]

We had this owner called Eugene Melnyk, or have you forgotten already. He wasn’t paying those guys.

Reading comprehension.

 

[Golden_Jet]

And I was talking about the reason(s) as to why we went into a rebuild? You seem to be easily overwhelmed.

Yes you did state your typical reasons, in this case it was wrong, it was the owner, sorry to overwhelm you with the facts.

Funny using JFresh stuff ,oh boy, about as useless as a DOM chart.

 

[Samsquanch]

He's not considered an elite GM for what he has done for Detroit, it's because he helped build a Lighting team that won two cups.

Lol well no shit, as if that had to be said? Man-splaining was not required here bud

Point being is that he's considered to be an elite GM by most people still today. Probably by all of Dorions biggest critics in here....

And the makeup of his Detroit team should make people start to reevaluate their opinion on him, if we're being fair. Maybe it's not super easy to rebuild a team and create great roster that has good chemistry?

The wings have picked a huge amount of times in the first two rounds over the last 4 years, like 18 picks. And only 3 or 4 of those guys look like real core players moving forward, unless something changes. Lots of smallish guys too.

Buffalo by contrast has done so much better than Detroit over that same period of time even if you don't count their 1st overall picks...And I would probably take Ottawa's one draft over ALL of Detroits combined over that same time

And to the people (not you Hale) saying that Dorion had this supposed unfair advantage over Stevey-Y due to the assets he started with (ie Stone/Karl ect) - give your heads a shake please.

How can you possibly say that and simultaneously ignore the fact that Yzerman is running a rich original six organization with the ability to lure FAs that are not available to Ottawa.

Again this isnt an endorsement for Dorion, but one of these guys was boxing with one hand tied behind his back. And yet somehow he still came out ahead on the judges scorecards (debate his tactics/luck all you want - the proof is plain as day - and the Sens are twice as sexy today versus Wings).

Even wings fans mostly all agree and would trade teams with us in a heartbeat.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Exactly. We don't need any major "needle movers" right now. The core of this team is solid. We need to add depth players who "play admirably".

I didnt say major. We will need some needle moving depth.

Im not saying he cant but an inherited roster adding 3 4th line/press box guys isnt convincing me.

Condon was a nice add. It was unfortunate he fall apart and he and Andy contributed to the collapse so much the following year after getting their money and term.

Again though, one season of an almost entirely inherited roster just isnt enough evidence. He really struggled the summer after that unable to remotely replace the losses, and while he had tough circumstances through the rebuild, not much positive to point to for the money tossed around.

 

[Xspyrit]

Yes you did state your typical reasons, in this case it was wrong, it was the owner, sorry to overwhelm you with the facts.

Funny using JFresh stuff ,oh boy, about as useless as a DOM chart.

Frankly, I don't know how to communicate with you. It's like you talk english but don't understand what the words mean? Or you read it but understand it in another language? It's a bit confusing

And you can downplay Jfresh graphs as much as you want (I did too initially) but at some point, I had to note that it reflects my evaluation about most players

I pretty much just look at EV Offense and Defense though

This for example :

Super underrated players but among the elite.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Lol well no shit, as if that had to be said? Man-splaining was not required here bud

Point being is that he's considered to be an elite GM by most people still today. Probably by all of Dorions biggest critics in here....

And the makeup of his Detroit team should make people start to reevaluate their opinion on him, if we're being fair.

And to the people (not you Hale) saying that Dorion had this supposed unfair advantage over Stevey-Y due to the assets he started with (ie Stone/Karl ect) - give your heads a shake please.

How can you possibly say that and simultaneously ignore the fact that Yzerman is running a rich original six organization with the ability to lure FAs that are not available to Ottawa.

Again this isnt an endorsement for Dorion, but one of these guys was boxing with one hand tied behind his back. And yet somehow he still came out ahead on the judges scorecards (debate his tactics/luck all you want - the proof is plain as day - and the Sens are twice as sexy today versus Wings over the same five year span).

Even wings fans mostly all agree and would trade teams with us in a heartbeat.

Of course you need to look at what assets he had to work with when he started in Detroit in April 2019.

Best assets he had to start with was Larkin, Mantha, Hronek, Bertuzzi and Rasmussen.

Team had 4 straight bad drafts before he came in, wasting 1sts on Zadina, Cholowski and Svechnikov.

I think he's done a fairly good job in Detroit. Won almost every significant trade he has made and has managed his assets wonderfully.

His UFA signings have been less good. Perron and Kubalik signings have been good. Copp and Husso have been ok. Chariot was a dumb signing and it will age poorly.

What is going to determine whether his tenure is a success is whether he can turn his 30M+ in cap space this summer into immediate help without blowing too much of the massive stockpile he's built up in prospects and picks.

You're right that Yzerman has an advantage over Dorion in his ability to attract talent to the team via UFA, but knowing how poorly Dorion has spent his money on new acquisitions makes me very glad his hands were tied in his ability to add UFAs. Can't imagine what a bad cap situation we'd be in if he had free reign to throw money around in silly season.

 

[Samsquanch]

Delete

 

[Golden_Jet]

Frankly, I don't know how to communicate with you. It's like you talk english but don't understand what the words mean? It's a bit confusing

And you can downplay Jfresh graphs as much as you want (I did too initially) but at some point, I had to note that it reflects my evaluation about most players

I pretty much just look at EV Offense and Defense though

This for example :

Super underrated players but among the elite.

Yep both solid 2 way players, but the data is from 20/21 season, he must have something newer.

 

[Samsquanch]

Of course you need to look at what assets he had to work with when he started in Detroit in April 2019.

Best assets he had to start with was Larkin, Mantha, Hronek, Bertuzzi and Rasmussen.

Team had 4 straight bad drafts before he came in, wasting 1sts on Zadina, Cholowski and Svechnikov.

I think he's done a fairly good job in Detroit. Won almost every significant trade he has made and has managed his assets wonderfully.

His UFA signings have been less good. Perron and Kubalik signings have been good. Copp and Husso have been ok. Chariot was a dumb signing and it will age poorly.

What is going to determine whether his tenure is a success is whether he can turn his 30M+ in cap space this summer into immediate help without blowing too much of the massive stockpile he's built up in prospects and picks.

You're right that Yzerman has an advantage over Dorion in his ability to attract talent to the team via UFA, but knowing how poorly Dorion has spent his money on new acquisitions makes me very glad his hands were tied in his ability to add UFAs. Can't imagine what a bad cap situation we'd be in if he had free reign to throw money around in silly season.

So if hes done a "fairly good job" in Detriot, which sounds pretty rosey considering all the meh draft picks and UFA signings, and the lack of high end talent going forward. Then how has Dorion done in your opinion?