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Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

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Ouroboros said:
There was a belief among certain people that the Sens were going to rebuild with guys like Rudy Balcers, Logan Brown, Christian Wolanin, Christian Jaros, Filip Chlapik, Vitaly Abramov, Jonathan Davidsson, Max Lajoie, and Joey Daccord. They thought these guys were going to be part of the future, and it broke their brains when it started to become clear that this was not going to be the case. This is basically ground zero for Dorion Derangement Syndrome.
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The belief isn't thinking the prospects you mentioned will be the stars of our future as we recreate the Pesky Sens, that's some false equivalency that you've created.

Its that we have so many developing players in the system, why tf are we paying assets for utter scrubs and vets that we have to later sell pennies on the dollar for? If we're trying to tank, stop spending money and draft capital on players we don't need. Using nonsensical intangibles like "leadership" for guys like Gudbranson and Stepan is absurd and doesn't make any sense. There's no way to prove that, NHL players rarely criticize their peers. Dorion managed to give up draft capital and spend money while trying to rebuild.
 
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Based on their work in Detroit and Ottawa, it's a comparison between two mediocre GMs in Yzerman vs Dorion. Based on his work with Tampa, Yzerman absolutely is better than Dorion, but he also started off in TB with some good foundational guys. Having said that, he deserves credit for building up the team that Brisebois finished.

Dorion started with a better core of players to sell off than Yzerman and has done a worse job so far. This could change in the future if we become the next Tampa, but so far its meh.

Having said that, Yzerman has done a very average, at best, job in Detroit. Copp & Chiarot were awful deals, Larkin is their only star on offense until Raymond shows some consistency, and aside from Seider, their D is shit. Picking Cossa over Wallstedt also was random af and outside the first round he's been pretty lackluster. But at its core, we're comparing to mediocre GMs based off their work at their current franchises.
 
Amazing how last weekend we assumed all parties were working their off-days to get this done, but this weekend we all know they're chilling and may even take Monday off.
 
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Micklebot said:
Yes, I'm sure Yzerman was heavily vested in who they picked outside of the first... the team drafted well, their first round however, where GMs tend to be more involved was lackluster in Tbay.

No, every draft board didn't have Seider in the late teens, McKenzie had him 16th, cam at Dobbers had him 13, Hockey prospect had him 10th. Yes, it is hyperbole that Seider is one on the biggest homeruns of all time. Great pick, sure, but there were far bigger home runs over the years, hell, you named one in Kucherov, Yzerman played with a couple in Datsyuk and Zetterberg, leagues been around longer than the last 5 years...
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He hires the scouts.... He meets with them he gives them direction on the type of players he wants them to target end the type of team they are building. They went to 3 scf in a row on a team he built. With 2 cups, 4 scf appearances total. Usually your arguments are well thought out and make sense but you are reaching so far to try and prove your point youre way off. Results speak for themselves.

You just didn't want to give him credit for Kucherov but now you do? I'm confused.

The seider pick was an amazing pick. In the first round which is what you isolated it's probably the best pick in the last 10 years or so. Vasi was also a first rounder that was later.

Yzerman is an amazing GM. There is an element of luck involved in everything but he has the results and a long time proven track record. Lastly it's not just drafts and trades etc. It's building a winning culture. Not running your mouth to the media or throwing water bottles in the booth. Or yelling at fans. He is always composed and respected by his peers. It trickles down.
 
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bert said:
He hires the scouts.... He meets with them he gives them direction on the type of players he wants them to target end the type of team they are building. They went to 3 scf in a row on a team he built. With 2 cups, 4 scf appearances total. Usually your arguments are well thought out and make sense but you are reaching so far to try and prove your point youre way off. Results speak for themselves.

You just didn't want to give him credit for Kucherov but now you do? I'm confused.

The seider pick was an amazing pick. In the first round which is what you isolated it's probably the best pick in the last 10 years or so. Vasi was also a first rounder that was later.

Yzerman is an amazing GM. There is an element of luck involved in everything but he has the results and a long time proven track record. Lastly it's not just drafts and trades etc. It's building a winning culture. Not running your mouth to the media or throwing water bottles in the booth. Or yelling at fans. He is always composed and respected by his peers. It trickles down.
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Which is why I said it was a mixed bag, first round has been meh, latter round did very well. Clearly he, or the Chief scout he hired, hired scouts that were finding some real gems, but the first round where GMs are more hands on was not all that good.

He certainly had success in TBay, there's no denying the end results, but before I diefy I'm curious to see if he can repeat his success, because the task will be more difficult in Det where he didn't start with a budding Norris winner to be and a stud #1 center along with an aging but still elite hall of fame winger to trade off.

Your a bit all over the place too, I never said Seider wasn't a great pick, I said it wasn't one of the biggest home runs of all time, because frankly that's an absurd claim. I never didn't want to give credit for Kucherov or any of the other later round picks, I just talked about his record in the first with TBay because imo it was a mixed bag. I do the same with Dorion, he's been pretty hit or miss in the first.
 
Liver King said:
I’m confused, a POHO has the President Title - they are the President of Hockey Operations

They are above the GM for all hockey ops decisions
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There is usually one President above them all, possibly called a CEO. Then under him you find Major department heads such as CFO, VP Marketing, VP Operations, VP whatever (Production) and for hockey teams GM/POHO who would be responsible for the players, contracts, scouts, development staff, coaches, etc. Generally the POHO title is for hockey matters and not other corporate activities.
 
So Mark Stone pretty well confirmed he didn't resign with the sens over Melnyk not willing to give him a no-trade clause.
 
Cosmix said:
There is usually one President above them all, possibly called a CEO. Then under him you find Major department heads such as CFO, VP Marketing, VP Operations, VP whatever (Production) and for hockey teams GM/POHO who would be responsible for the players, contracts, scouts, development staff, coaches, etc. Generally the POHO title is for hockey matters and not other corporate activities.
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Exactly, which is why they would hire out the hockey ops staff.
 
There sounds like a lot of crossover between the job of POHO and GM. Is it another layer of bureaucracy? I cant imagine any GM wants that kind of interference they cant control but will get blamed for. Like Dubas with Shanahan. I still dont quite understand why we need one. Especially one that could veto moves the GM wants to make. If you dont trust the GM to do their job, then dont hire them.
 
Crazy that we could have had Bruce Cassidy instead we continue to employ DJ smith

New ownership and new gm can’t come soon enough
 
Since it sounds like DBC wants out this is Dorion's third strike: Brassard, Duchene and now DBC were all massive unforced errors.

I like that he swung for the fences and like all three trades when they were announced (I was sad about Zibanejad but we didn't know how much Brassard had slowed down, he was seen as a clutch playoff warrior) but we gotta be honest, Dorion is not a homerun hitter and he sets us back whenever he goes for it.

Any GM would have signed the core their current deals (a wiser GM might not have given Norris a long term deal with the shoulder concerns) so that doesn't counter-balance those three awful trades.

Fire his cowardly ass. He and DJ are rebuilding personel (and DJ is at least likeable and honourable), time for us to try to level up and they have shown they are not capable of it.

Dorion threatened DBC by talking about arbitration and cut his pay by 15% in the media and is willing to do the same thing he did with Stone. The man is a total moron.
 
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Do Make Say Think said:
Since it sounds like DBC wants out this is Dorion's third strike: Brassard, Duchene and now DBC were all massive unforced errors.

I like that he swung for the fences and like all three trades when they were announced (I was sad about Zibanejad but we didn't know how much Brassard had slowed down, he was seen as a clutch playoff warrior) but we gotta be honest, Dorion is not a homerun hitter and he sets us back whenever he goes for it.

Any GM would have signed the core their current deals (a wiser GM might not have given Norris a long term deal with the shoulder concerns) so that doesn't counter-balance those three awful trades.

Fire his cowardly ass. He and DJ are rebuilding personel (and DJ is at least likeable and honourable), time for us to try to level up and they have shown they are not capable of it.

Dorion threatened DBC by talking about arbitration and cut his pay by 15% in the media and is willing to do the same thing he did with Stone. The man is a total moron.
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Sorry, which part of this rant describes the “cowardly“ bit?

Certainly wasn’t the “swing for the fences” bit that you like, nor the supposed ‘every GM would sign their young stars to great long term deals’ (which is obviously not true) bit either.

Cheer up, it’s gonna be ok. New ownership and new total morons will come to replace the old total morons soon!
 
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Cosmix said:
A POHO is usually not the highest level executive. The highest level is usually titled "President" and all other executives report to him including the GM, Chief Financial Officer, etc.
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Okay, who is the POHO for the leafs and to who do they report to?
 
Just got to wait to see what we get in return

I think with DBC we have a good opportunity to round out our roster with the right moves, either in a direct return or by utilizing the cap space

This summer will be another interesting one
 
Not a fan of the way Dorion people skills or lack thereof.
Theirs been too many instances where you shake your head:

-Troy Mann Situation
-the way Matt Murray was demoted
-Kastelic demotion right before the all star break
-His Aloofness or lack of understanding of the Fan Base
- His constant need to let everyone know he's in charge.
- Forcing Line up decisions on coaches
- Constant Media Gaffes ( we're a team, character for European)
- The Treatment of Franchise Best Goaltender Craig Anderson ( 11 seconds phone call that they were releasing him - no thank you for your service - none of that according to Anderson.)
-His duels with Ian Mendes (who's simplying trying to ask tough but fair questions on behalf of fans)
 
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redbrick98 said:
Not a fan of the way Dorion people skills or lack thereof.
Theirs been too many instances where you shake your head:

-Troy Mann Situation
-the way Matt Murray was demoted
-Kastelic demotion right before the all star break
-His Aloofness or lack of understanding of the Fan Base
- His constant need to let everyone know he's in charge.
- Forcing Line up decisions on coaches
- Constant Media Gaffes ( we're a team, character for European)
- The Treatment of Franchise Best Goaltender Craig Anderson ( 11 seconds phone call that they were releasing him - no thank you for your service - none of that according to Anderson.)
-His duels with Ian Mendes (who's simplying trying to ask tough but fair questions on behalf of fans)
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I guess, but nothing here is anything to lose sleep over, and several are completely nothing burgers.
 
redbrick98 said:
Not a fan of the way Dorion people skills or lack thereof.
Theirs been too many instances where you shake your head:

-Troy Mann Situation
-the way Matt Murray was demoted
-Kastelic demotion right before the all star break
-His Aloofness or lack of understanding of the Fan Base
- His constant need to let everyone know he's in charge.
- Forcing Line up decisions on coaches
- Constant Media Gaffes ( we're a team, character for European)
- The Treatment of Franchise Best Goaltender Craig Anderson ( 11 seconds phone call that they were releasing him - no thank you for your service - none of that according to Anderson.)
-His duels with Ian Mendes (who's simplying trying to ask tough but fair questions on behalf of fans)
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Troy man went on a podcast after being asked not to and told the world that the Sens had no young NHL ready Dmen meanwhile the Sens were trying to trade a young NHL ready Dman for Chychrun. He lost his job himself
Anderson told a story then said it was untrue 1 second later, this was explained repeatedly
Matt Murray plays hurt when his goals against starts to rise and deserved to be demoted.

You pick on random things that there is no reason to complain about
 
If Melnyk was not ready to pay Mark Stone on a long term deal then WHY THE f*** was he not traded for the best return possible? So many fireable offenses over the years.

But this shit is going to be "shot down" so quick, buckle up
 
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Mark Stone was never going to sign in Ottawa at that time. Which was made clear in Pierre Lebrun's recent article in The Athletic.
 
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Another summer of Dorion fixing his massive mistakes - Debrincats going to traded for a lose and we have no real NHL goalie / goalies

Dorion will do something and then try and fix it in the summer of 2024

Rinse - Repeat
 
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