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Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

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Knave said:
You're right. It's not. We should take a fair look.

So lets take a look at the the history of all NHL GMs. First we will look at single team tenure. The record of a GM with a team from hiring to firing. And we'll pick the top 100 in terms of games managed.

Here's the link: NHL Records

Here are some highlights where I rank by points percentage and pick recognizable recent names:

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Rank[/TD]
[TD]Name[/TD]
[TD]Franchise[/TD]
[TD]Games[/TD]
[TD]Wins[/TD]
[TD]Losses[/TD]
[TD]Ties[/TD]
[TD]OT Losses[/TD]
[TD]Points[/TD]
[TD]Points Percentage[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]Don Sweeney[/TD]
[TD]Boston[/TD]
[TD]618[/TD]
[TD]378[/TD]
[TD]174[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]66[/TD]
[TD]822[/TD]
[TD]133%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]Ken Holland[/TD]
[TD]Detroit[/TD]
[TD]1688[/TD]
[TD]925[/TD]
[TD]523[/TD]
[TD]72[/TD]
[TD]168[/TD]
[TD]2090[/TD]
[TD]124%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]Lou Lamo.[/TD]
[TD]New Jersey[/TD]
[TD]2140[/TD]
[TD]1093[/TD]
[TD]759[/TD]
[TD]179[/TD]
[TD]109[/TD]
[TD]2474[/TD]
[TD]116%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]52[/TD]
[TD]Bryan Murray[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa[/TD]
[TD]704[/TD]
[TD]339[/TD]
[TD]278[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]87[/TD]
[TD]765[/TD]
[TD]109%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]61[/TD]
[TD]Don Maloney[/TD]
[TD]Arizona[/TD]
[TD]704[/TD]
[TD]326[/TD]
[TD]291[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]87[/TD]
[TD]739[/TD]
[TD]105%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]67[/TD]
[TD]Garth Snow[/TD]
[TD]NYI[/TD]
[TD]950[/TD]
[TD]425[/TD]
[TD]403[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]122[/TD]
[TD]972[/TD]
[TD]102%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]72[/TD]
[TD]Cliff Fletcher[/TD]
[TD]Toronto[/TD]
[TD]460[/TD]
[TD]202[/TD]
[TD]200[/TD]
[TD]58[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]462[/TD]
[TD]100%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]74[/TD]
[TD]Bryan Murray[/TD]
[TD]Florida[/TD]
[TD]494[/TD]
[TD]199[/TD]
[TD]203[/TD]
[TD]81[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]490[/TD]
[TD]99%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]78[/TD]
[TD]Jim Benning[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver[/TD]
[TD]560[/TD]
[TD]242[/TD]
[TD]257[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]61[/TD]
[TD]545[/TD]
[TD]97%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]82[/TD]
[TD]Pierre Dorion[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa[/TD]
[TD]537[/TD]
[TD]221[/TD]
[TD]257[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]59[/TD]
[TD]501[/TD]
[TD]93%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]87[/TD]
[TD]Don Waddell[/TD]
[TD]Atlanta[/TD]
[TD]820[/TD]
[TD]308[/TD]
[TD]401[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]66[/TD]
[TD]727[/TD]
[TD]89%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]90[/TD]
[TD]Mike Milbury[/TD]
[TD]NYI[/TD]
[TD]792[/TD]
[TD]294[/TD]
[TD]392[/TD]
[TD]86[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]694[/TD]
[TD]88%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]91[/TD]
[TD]J. Ferguson Sr[/TD]
[TD]Arizona[/TD]
[TD]729[/TD]
[TD]271[/TD]
[TD]362[/TD]
[TD]96[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]638[/TD]
[TD]88%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]94[/TD]
[TD]Doug MacLean[/TD]
[TD]Columbus[/TD]
[TD]492[/TD]
[TD]172[/TD]
[TD]258[/TD]
[TD]33[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]406[/TD]
[TD]83%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]96[/TD]
[TD]Phil Esposito[/TD]
[TD]Tampa Bay[/TD]
[TD]464[/TD]
[TD]157[/TD]
[TD]253[/TD]
[TD]54[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]368[/TD]
[TD]79%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

One important thing to keep in mind is the ties column. This puts all the GMs below Pierre Dorion at a disadvantage. They tied games. Dorion teams won games that would be considered ties.

If we assume a Mike Milbury team or Ferguson Sr. team won at a similar rate to their records.... and we divvy up those ties.... Milbury and Ferguson Jr would have a very similar record to Dorion.

That leaves - Doug MacLean, Phil Esposito and Don Waddell (sort of but Don Waddell is pretty close to Dorion). And what do all three have in common? They were the first GMs for expansion teams. They had zero assets to start with. Dorion started with a playoff team. Not a great team but a playoff team with a Norris winner, a future Selke candidate, some solid players at center.

I just don't see how this is a debate. I really don't. I don't hate Dorion. I wish him well. He'll get a job as a scout or AGM but his first attempt at being an NHL GM has been a complete failure when you look at the list of names and who he compares with.
Click to expand...
The problem with looking at wins and losses, is that you need to consider how many GMs spent much of their time building a roster up from the ground, when winning games was not only not a priority, but when losing games was a necessary process of gathering top draft choices to build around.

Consider the mindset of A GM who knows he could get more wins and move up your list if he cobbles together a mediocre roster and keeps it going instead of rebuilding a better team that may actually have a chance at winning a championship.

Consider a GM that has managed a team for years that had a crushing on and off ice budget, who’s instructions from ownership was to be at the cap floor, and hopefully below in terms of actual dollars spent.

The numbers don’t tell all the stories, nor are they the be all end all of a GM’s talent in the position, as you seem to be saying.

The numbers are just number without context. It’s like looking at points and assuming that a guy who plays on a good team and has more points is just a better player than a guy who plays on a bad team and has fewer points. Obviously it’s not that simple, and the guy on the bad team very well could be the better player.

Dorion had an aging core that blew up in the locker room and unfortunately he was unable to spend the money necessary to build a team around that core anyways. You’ll note that we still made the playoffs during that time including a trip to game 7 of the ECF.

He turned that Norris winning into one of the best trade hauls of all time, and several other guys netted solid return as well. Stone was unfortunate, but was a story all of its own. We didn’t get a great return because PD was actively trying to keep him up until minutes before the deadline. Was that a mistake? Maybe, but most people still wish we could have found a way to make him stay.

I don’t really agree with you trying to use what PD started with as some sort of watering down of what he was able to turn it into. Every GM starts with something to work with. Yzerman in TBay started with an embarrassment of riches and was able to build around that. Edmonton has two of the best players of our generation, buffalo has multiple 1st OAs, NJ has won the lottery several times… I mean there are lots of GMS that we would have to start knocking down a peg if we start looking at things like this.

To me, it’s what you do with what you have that’s most important, what ever luck and assets you have. I love what has been built to date in Ottawa, and the direction I feel they are headed. That’s all that really matter to me in terms of evaluating the GM. The rest is just noise and NHL soap opera stuff that while entertaining, is just gossip and filler.
 
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Pierre Dorion script for interview with new ownership team:

"I worked hard to help build this team. I love this team. I want to see this team win the cup before 2026. If you have someone else mind to be GM, I am willing to step into another role."
 
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AchtzehnBaby said:
Pierre Dorion script for interview with new ownership team:

"I worked hard to help build this team. I love this team. I want to see this team win the cup before 2026. If you have someone else mind to be GM, I am willing to step into another role."
Click to expand...

They could convince him to accept associate general manager, like Randy in that one season of Trailer Park Boys
 
AchtzehnBaby said:
Pierre Dorion script for interview with new ownership team:

"I worked hard to help build this team. I love this team. I want to see this team win the cup before 2026. If you have someone else mind to be GM, I am willing to step into another role."
Click to expand...

Assistant to the General Manager.
 
Still doubt their is any changes in management this summer & next yr will the yr depending on how they are doing whether they make any changes to management & HC.
 
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aragorn said:
Still doubt their is any changes in management this summer & next yr will the yr depending on how they are doing whether they make any changes to management & HC.
Click to expand...
Agree on the changes, I’d change Capuano, but SOA laughed at that. Also Yes move on from Branny and get a bigger stronger third pairing.
 
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Golden_Jet said:
Agree on the changes, I’d change Capuano, but SOA laughed at that. Also Yes move on from Branny and get a bigger stronger third pairing.
Click to expand...
The question few ask is whether the new ownership group are paying any attention to what the players are saying especially when it comes to DJ. Even DBC has recently said he loves playing for this coach & they play hard as Keith Tkachuk mentioned so the coaching staff is getting full effort from his players. It's just not their time yet because they are still young & still learning the process, it takes time for players to mature which some will never understand & turn a program around.

This whole thing about the players cheating on defence is nonsence & not true, it's just a negative narative some have going on with Tkachuk. The NHL is a copycat league & we see other teams deploy the exact same strategy with both M. Tkachuk & Stone who does it all the time on the wall. The changes they have made to this point are going to show up next yr & they just need to find a #1 goalie who can stay healthy & get consistent NHL goaltending should make them a playoff team. Adding Formenton & Sokolov IMO would improve the 3rd line immensely & make them harder to play against.

Kleven IMO would also be a big improvement on defence especially if they pair him with Hamonic who helped Sanderson on & off the ice & can mentor Kleven. People also forget that Hamonic had 21 pts last yr which is pretty damn solid for a defensive defenceman you don't expect pts from. These two would make for a solid PK tandem as well. They have the makings for three solid lines & three solid pairings on D & really just need a #1 goaltender & tweak from there.
 
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Pretty sure i read somewhere that even if a bidder is picked today, it will still take a few weeks for the new ownership to actually take over before the paper work and legal stuff are all finalized. No way Dorion is replaced this summer, and it would hurt us more than help if you bring in a new manager half way through the offseason at this point, he'd be way too far behind on everything. DJ though can be and should be replaced anytime before the season starts if there are better options available, the sooner the better. Someone that can instill a proper defensive structure and has a track record would be great.
 
SENStastic said:
Pretty sure i read somewhere that even if a bidder is picked today, it will still take a few weeks for the new ownership to actually take over before the paper work and legal stuff are all finalized. No way Dorion is replaced this summer, and it would hurt us more than help if you bring in a new manager half way through the offseason at this point, he'd be way too far behind on everything. DJ though can be and should be replaced anytime before the season starts if there are better options available, the sooner the better. Someone that can instill a proper defensive structure and has a track record would be great.
Click to expand...
For the sake of stability , I'd much rather go status quo (plug my nose) , allow the new owners to bring in a manager and that manager to bring in a coach.

I would have liked both to have been replaced but the timing isn't going that way.

Golden_Jet said:
Agree on the changes, I’d change Capuano, but SOA laughed at that. Also Yes move on from Branny and get a bigger stronger third pairing.
Click to expand...
Not really
 
Sens of Anarchy said:
For the sake of stability , I'd much rather go status quo (plug my nose) , allow the new owners to bring in a manager and that manager to bring in a coach.

I would have liked both to have been replaced but the timing isn't going that way.
Click to expand...
I would rather have a new GM installed asap, even if the ownership change occurs in July, August or September. The GM's job is more longer term roster and asset management anyway. Let the new GM choose his own new coach and staff, scouting staff, and development staff.
 
Sens of Anarchy said:
For the sake of stability , I'd much rather go status quo (plug my nose) , allow the new owners to bring in a manager and that manager to bring in a coach.

I would have liked both to have been replaced but the timing isn't going that way.
Click to expand...
makes sense for the gm position as he's got a bunch of work to get done this offseason, but Dorion could still be the gm even next offseason, there is no guaranter he'll be replaced by new ownership. Replacing the coach anytime this summer, even late, should still be fine and won't hurt as much. The sooner he is gone the better.
 
SENStastic said:
makes sense for the gm position as he's got a bunch of work to get done this offseason, but Dorion could still be the gm even next offseason, there is no guaranter he'll be replaced by new ownership. Replacing the coach anytime this summer, even late, should still be fine and won't hurt as much. The sooner he is gone the better.
Click to expand...
No you don’t hire a coach a new GM might not want in a few months.
 
SENStastic said:
makes sense for the gm position as he's got a bunch of work to get done this offseason, but Dorion could still be the gm even next offseason, there is no guaranter he'll be replaced by new ownership. Replacing the coach anytime this summer, even late, should still be fine and won't hurt as much. The sooner he is gone the better.
Click to expand...
Same can be said for Dorion as much as DJ imo.
 
Golden_Jet said:
No you don’t hire a coach a new GM might not want in a few months.
Click to expand...
yes that would make sense, but i just dont see Dorion being replaced this year, given how long the sale is taking, more likely if it comes, it would be next year. And I really dont want to see another mediocre year under dj
 
Sens of Anarchy said:
Same can be said for Dorion as much as DJ imo.
Click to expand...
while true, the ownership will need to have been in place by now, and we're not even done with the bidding process, groups are still adding more partners and recruiting more investors with no deadline in sight..
 
SENStastic said:
while true, the ownership will need to have been in place by now, and we're not even done with the bidding process, groups are still adding more partners and recruiting more investors with no deadline in sight..
Click to expand...
Dorion has some critical decisions coming up that can impact this roster and their results as much as what DJ will. Both need to be gone sooner than later.
 
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Sens of Anarchy said:
Dorion has some critical decisions coming up that can impact this roster and their results as much as what DJ will. Both need to be gone sooner than later.
Click to expand...
Dont disagree at all. Just reasoning out that since the gm has a bunch of critical decisions to make now, replacing him in a month or two would throw a wrench into contract and trade negotiations right in the thick of things, it wont be good. Would rather he stays until all that is done for sake of continuity as you mentioned before. The coach's impact and work starts much later, so even if he's replaced in August we should still be ok. But ya, both positions need an upgrade at this point, i just really want to see how this roster performs under a new coach, most of the critical pieces are already set in place as it is, just need a different guy to guide them now.
 
SENStastic said:
Dont disagree at all. Just reasoning out that since the gm has a bunch of critical decisions to make now, replacing him in a month or two would throw a wrench into contract and trade negotiations right in the thick of things, it wont be good. Would rather he stays until all that is done for sake of continuity as you mentioned before. The coach's impact and work starts much later, so even if he's replaced in August we should still be ok. But ya, both positions need an upgrade at this point, i just really want to see how this roster performs under a new coach, most of the critical pieces are already set in place as it is, just need a different guy to guide them now.
Click to expand...
With new ownership Dorion could be replaced by a new GM on the day he was fired.
 
SENStastic said:
Dont disagree at all. Just reasoning out that since the gm has a bunch of critical decisions to make now, replacing him in a month or two would throw a wrench into contract and trade negotiations right in the thick of things, it wont be good. Would rather he stays until all that is done for sake of continuity as you mentioned before. The coach's impact and work starts much later, so even if he's replaced in August we should still be ok. But ya, both positions need an upgrade at this point, i just really want to see how this roster performs under a new coach, most of the critical pieces are already set in place as it is, just need a different guy to guide them now.
Click to expand...
The Mick wrote about this earlier...

No pick until round 4 in the draft
no urgent contract to sign, no one is up.. Pinto, but he is RFA and can be bridged or qualified.
the plan was to qualify the CAT to maintain asset rights. you can then trade him later
they are close to being a cap team, so relatively little room for additions...

They have 1-2 months to get a new GM.. with him will come a new coach.... MAYBE to either/or.
 
Bileur said:
The only plausible reason (aside from incompetence) is because they had to keep selling tickets in the short term at the expense of long term results.
Click to expand...

Yeah Melnyk certainly didn't help and back then I thought Dorion was a just a "puppet/victim" of Melnyk but once the firesale was done, we saw Dorion true incompetency, even if for some it was made already pretty clear with Zibanejad and Duchene fiascos. I was just a bit slower than some

Incredibly, there's still some who are "not there yet" :laugh:

Tuna99 said:
Another summer of Dorion fixing his massive mistakes - Debrincats going to traded for a lose and we have no real NHL goalie / goalies

Dorion will do something and then try and fix it in the summer of 2024

Rinse - Repeat
Click to expand...

There would be so much to say but specifically about fixing mistakes

Just look at the cost of fixing Colin White, Michael Del Zotto, Nikita Zaitsev, Matt Murray. Smith/Anisimov, Condon, Burrows. Boedker, etc situations. I'm probably forgetting a few

Just Murray and Zaitsev cost a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 7th (+ retention) and a LOT of money over the years

Miraculously fixing the Dadonov's signing ended up positive, not sure what Vegas was thinking on this one but good on Dorion for that one

But overall, it's insane how much he pissed away assets (money, draft capital, etc) by his mismanagement. It's even more insane that there's still people blind to it. I guess some people have a hard time leaving the denial phase.

Rich people invest big money to make more money, it is absolutely impossible for me to imagine any billionaire putting his eggs on this horse...
 
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