Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Xspyrit]

You can't round up at one end and round down at one at the other end.

That, plus you still dying on that Balcers hill shows how freakishly obsessed you are with Dorion. Nobody else is playing Balcers right now! Why aren't you going after the 31 other general managers?!?!

What does it have to do with rounding up lol? It's mathematically IMPOSSIBLE to make the playoffs before a total of 7 years, so yes it's already 7 years. Are you being obtuse on purpose or just not smart enough? I mean, I like to debate things but this kind of stuff makes it a waste of time.

And the fact that you always come back with the same stupid argument "dying on that Balcers hill" is a sign of unintelligence or pure disingenuity. I can't be certain of which but both is not a good look.

Why am I saying that? Simply because it has been explained to you a lot of times (and not just by me) that it has NOTHING to do with Balcers but everything to do with Dorion and our ultra terrible pro scouting where he ends up giving up assets (while rebuilding WTF?) for bad or below average players when he could have gotten better (even if overpaid) players (+ maybe assets that comes with it, ala Gostisbehere) and to balance the money, play a few more young players (anyone, not just Balcers, who would even have been better lol) instead of guys who are barely NHL level or just DID NOT WANT TO BE HERE (like Paquette and Stepan, at the very least)

I mean, you guys COULD have a point IF the purpose was to TANK, but that point became invalid when they picked Tyler freaking Boucher with a 10th OA pick.

That was just for the 2020-21 season. The last 2 off-seasons were bad too. Total lack of depth (and veteran leadership ON the ice) for 2021-22, which was also an easy call before the season. Regarding 2022-23, yes we lucked into Giroux who wanted to come home but the rest was terrible (DeBrincat + Joseph + Gambrell + Talbot vs Bjorkstrand/any good 2-way forward + Paul + Brown + Gustavsson) and the result was that we sucked 5v5

Again, you guys COULD have a point that we didn't have money to pay Paul/Brown but when Dorion spent more MILLIONS on an inferior aging goalie, the point became invalid as well. It's pretty clear that he doesn't know what he is doing and it starts with his terrible pro scouting

You COULD also make the point that we have a lot of young talent and the rebuild is going well. Yes we do, but so far we have just been wasting that talent (and it's not just about making the playoffs) surrounding them and coaching them inadequatly (thank Alfie for Giroux though)

Finally, how ironic that you say that someone is "freakishly obsessed with Dorion"... lol! I never ever think about the guy outside of when I come here and I have only been visiting sporadically for a while now. I have been apathetic to Sens hockey the last 2 seasons that I haven't watched EVERY game like I used to for a very long time. That's the hockey DJ Dorion have manufactured. Only reason I follow is for the young talented guys and the hpe that we'll finally get real competent people to coach and manage this team (even if they're not as cool)

The Balcers discourse is insane, but I have to admit I am utterly fascinated by it. He's the perfect catnip for my shitposts because his name is irresistible to certain people; he is the emblem for all that is wrong with Pierre Dorion!

I think it illustrates that there are people on here that are pathologically incapable of admitting when they're wrong. Every team that has ever had Rudy Balcers couldn't get rid of him quick enough. The Sens waived him. The Sharks waived him and bought him out of an essentially league-minimum contract. Florida signed him to a league-minimum contract and then waived him a dozen games in. Tampa claimed him and then waived him after 3 games. Yet somehow I'm meant to believe that this is a guy primed to make 'valuable contributions' to an NHL team? Sure thing. He's trash, and all the JFresh cards in the world can't change it.

There was a belief among certain people that the Sens were going to rebuild with guys like Rudy Balcers, Logan Brown, Christian Wolanin, Christian Jaros, Filip Chlapik, Vitaly Abramov, Jonathan Davidsson, Max Lajoie, and Joey Daccord. They thought these guys were going to be part of the future, and it broke their brains when it started to become clear that this was not going to be the case. This is basically ground zero for Dorion Derangement Syndrome.

A lot of this comes down to not really being prepared for what a rebuild was actually going to entail. A lot of people have this fantasy about a team full of plucky underdogs that keep games close and are always competitive, largely on the backs of their own drafted prospects who all develop flawlessly. But the attrition rate on mediocre mid-round calibre prospects is higher than most people think. The reality is that no team can produce that much talent in that short of a time frame, so the holes get filled by bad veteran placeholders - plugs with character. You lose 50 games a year and many of them aren't close at all. It's miserable to watch, and it's not unusual to take the better part of a decade to get beyond it.

There is no "Balcers discourse", and it's not about "the prospects who didn't make it", it's all about what was done instead and what also not done. It is well explained above and there is so many examples like this that shows that Dorion has been pretty damn bad at managing this rebuild (cumulating picks and selling your best assets isn't the hard part but he even managed to partially screw that up, if that's even possible)

You can say all you want and get the likes from the same 6-7 guys who still "resist" but anyone who still can't see all this ineptitude management is doing it on purpose or is still in denial. There is no other way to put it.

Pretty sure you will keep ignoring all this to stay in the disingenuity and then come back with the usual "Balcers hill" like if you were not smart enough to understand. Is that not trolling? lol

And it has also nothing to do with being "pathologically incapable of admitting when they're wrong"... I was wrong on Andre Pettersson (thought he'd be good) and Mike Hoffman (thought he'd be a coffee guy at most) for example and always been vocal about it. You're just trying to ridicule this Balcers thing because you are smart enough to KNOW that there is no way to defend Dorion FACTUALLY.

 

[Hockeysawks]

Yeah Melnyk certainly didn't help and back then I thought Dorion was a just a "puppet/victim" of Melnyk but once the firesale was done, we saw Dorion true incompetency, even if for some it was made already pretty clear with Zibanejad and Duchene fiascos. I was just a bit slower than some

Incredibly, there's still some who are "not there yet"



There would be so much to say but specifically about fixing mistakes

Just look at the cost of fixing Colin White, Michael Del Zotto, Nikita Zaitsev, Matt Murray. Smith/Anisimov, Condon, Burrows. Boedker, etc situations. I'm probably forgetting a few

Just Murray and Zaitsev cost a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 7th (+ retention) and a LOT of money over the years

Miraculously fixing the Dadonov's signing ended up positive, not sure what Vegas was thinking on this one but good on Dorion for that one

But overall, it's insane how much he pissed away assets (money, draft capital, etc) by his mismanagement. It's even more insane that there's still people blind to it. I guess some people have a hard time leaving the denial phase.

Rich people invest big money to make more money, it is absolutely impossible for me to imagine any billionaire putting his eggs on this horse...

Zaitsev also brought a couple years of Brown and the second round pick he was traded for, so it’s not as bad as your saying

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Zaitsev also brought a couple years of Brown and the second round pick he was traded for, so it’s not as bad as your saying

Don't forget the 2nd it took to get rid of Zaitsev.

 

[bert]

Don't forget the 2nd it took to get rid of Zaitsev.

Cost them more to get rid of him then they got back for Brown. The entire body of work by Dorion is awful when you actually break it down. If San Jose doesn't go from conference finalist to basement dweller his time here is one of the largest failures in hockey history of being a GM in the NHL.

 

[JD1]

Cost them more to get rid of him then they got back for Brown. The entire body of work by Dorion is awful when you actually break it down. If San Jose doesn't go from conference finalist to basement dweller his time here is one of the largest failures in hockey history of being a GM in the NHL.

Idk Bert, you can't just look at the bad side of things and not consider the good.

We've discussed before the Stuetzle contract. Dorion had no leverage to get him to sign last summer. But he got him for 8 years in the low 8s. Suppose Stuetzle doesn't sign last summer. What the looking at this summer? At least 10 AAV. Compare that to Marner and Matthews. He probably saved the team 20M with that contract.

The SanJose trade did happen. It was a homerun. You can't just remove the best deal he's made because it suits you.

We've got a core signed and our worst contract might be Chabot's. He's built a team with a chance to win. We really have had that since the mid 2000s.

 

[Hockeysawks]

Cost them more to get rid of him then they got back for Brown. The entire body of work by Dorion is awful when you actually break it down. If San Jose doesn't go from conference finalist to basement dweller his time here is one of the largest failures in hockey history of being a GM in the NHL.

How do you ice a team without using picks? Plus I am fairly sure they were pushing that 50 contract limit most the time, those picks add up when your drafting like mad for 2 or 3 years
They have almost no bad contracts, Chabots could be a little high, but other that it should be ok.
If they can’t make the playoffs I will stress, other than that I don’t understand how anyone would be upset about a second or third round pick being randomly used to get rid of someone you don’t want around.
I think with Norris they would have rolled into the playoffs so I’m not worried

 

[Golden_Jet]

Cost them more to get rid of him then they got back for Brown. The entire body of work by Dorion is awful when you actually break it down. If San Jose doesn't go from conference finalist to basement dweller his time here is one of the largest failures in hockey history of being a GM in the NHL.

Don’t forget SJ was a little better than Sens that year, they just won the third place lottery ball, that moved them up.

 

[Beech]

Idk Bert, you can't just look at the bad side of things and not consider the good.

We've discussed before the Stuetzle contract. Dorion had no leverage to get him to sign last summer. But he got him for 8 years in the low 8s. Suppose Stuetzle doesn't sign last summer. What the looking at this summer? At least 10 AAV. Compare that to Marner and Matthews. He probably saved the team 20M with that contract.

The SanJose trade did happen. It was a homerun. You can't just remove the best deal he's made because it suits you.

We've got a core signed and our worst contract might be Chabot's. He's built a team with a chance to win. We really have had that since the mid 2000s.

dumb luck... SJ kept Kane.. had to give their first to Buffalo (2019).. that pushed their pick to the following season (2020). SJ dumped Kane one year later.

the 2019 pick was 29th overall and is a bust.

Karlsson could have netted next to nothing... Zach O. (2nd rounder 2021)

Stutzle is following his countryman's lead. Sign way below market.. Who the F knows why????? Its gotta be a German thing!!!! Probably is. Germans in the Bundasliga rarely cause trouble when it comes to contracts and are relatively incident free. Most issues tend to be with foreign players.

Dorion cannot be given any credit.

Stutzle needs to fire his agent.

 

[BoardsofCanada]

Under Dorion's watch.

Tkachuk Stutzle Batherson
DBC Norris Giroux
Formenton Pinto Grieg
Gauthier Kastelic Joseph
Sokolov

Chabot Chychrun
Sanderson Zub
Kleven Brannstrom
JBD

Forsberg
Sogaard
Merilainen

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Under Dorion's watch.

Tkachuk Stutzle Batherson
DBC Norris Batherson
Formenton Pinto Grieg
Gauthier Kastelic Joseph
Sokolov

Chabot Chychrun
Sanderson Zub
Kleven Brannstrom
JBD

Forsberg
Sogaard
Merilainen

Needs to find a goalie, round out that bottom 6, and find a decent enough player for DeBrincat's spot. Should 100% be a playoff squad if that happens.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Under Dorion's watch.

Tkachuk Stutzle Batherson
DBC Norris Batherson
Formenton Pinto Grieg
Gauthier Kastelic Joseph
Sokolov

Chabot Chychrun
Sanderson Zub
Kleven Brannstrom
JBD

Forsberg
Sogaard
Merilainen

Looks good to me

 

[Beech]

Under Dorion's watch.

Tkachuk Stutzle Batherson
DBC Norris Batherson
Formenton Pinto Grieg
Gauthier Kastelic Joseph
Sokolov

Chabot Chychrun
Sanderson Zub
Kleven Brannstrom
JBD

Forsberg
Sogaard
Merilainen

this was largely this year's team.. one of your two Bathersons was probably menat to be Giroux. They missed the playoffs.

DBC is as good as gone, Giroux is defying aging, but that may not last.
Formenton may never come back
Batherson was a difficulty when it comes to defensive responsibility

a team that sold everything. that acquired a ton of very high picks thanks to their poor finishes and issues in SJ. That is 2 years past FYOUS. That will eventually stumble as the CAP hits them.

Are you suggesting that he built some juggernaut? and did so thanks for brilliance!!

which moves exactly?

 

[JD1]

this was largely this year's team.. one of your two Bathersons was probably menat to be Giroux. They missed the playoffs.

DBC is as good as gone, Giroux is defying aging, but that may not last.
Formenton may never come back
Batherson was a difficulty when it comes to defensive responsibility

a team that sold everything. that acquired a ton of very high picks thanks to their poor finishes and issues in SJ. That is 2 years past FYOUS. That will eventually stumble as the CAP hits them.

Are you suggesting that he built some juggernaut? and did so thanks for brilliance!!

which moves exactly?

That's a vastly different roster than this past season

That roster, blessed with health, easily makes the playoffs imo.

 

[HSF]

I hope the new GM Asa a crack at signing DBC longterm

Dorion has enough chances

 

[BoardsofCanada]

this was largely this year's team.. one of your two Bathersons was probably menat to be Giroux. They missed the playoffs.

DBC is as good as gone, Giroux is defying aging, but that may not last.
Formenton may never come back
Batherson was a difficulty when it comes to defensive responsibility

a team that sold everything. that acquired a ton of very high picks thanks to their poor finishes and issues in SJ. That is 2 years past FYOUS. That will eventually stumble as the CAP hits them.

Are you suggesting that he built some juggernaut? and did so thanks for brilliance!!

which moves exactly?

How many teams in the NHL have as good a top 6 (I would even go top 9) up front and top 4 on the blueline? How many teams?

Ottawa missed the playoffs because of 1) injuries 2) goaltending 3) youth/lack of experience... for those reasons in that order. It's a well built young team with tremendous potential.

 

[Micklebot]

Forsberg
Sogaard
Merilainen

This would be the glaring weak spot... and assuming we manage to sign the RFA and UFA you have in that group, i'm not seeing how we address it.

I suspect DeBrincat is gone, if Dorion can get a decent return and resolve the goalie carousel, I think we'll be in pretty good shape. Maybe Sogaard or Merilainen is the answer, but that's a heck of a risk.

Can't expect GMs not to make mistakes, but the Murray acquisition/eventual trade away and Talbot Trade set us back imo.

 

[HSF]

dumb luck... SJ kept Kane.. had to give their first to Buffalo (2019).. that pushed their pick to the following season (2020). SJ dumped Kane one year later.

the 2019 pick was 29th overall and is a bust.

Karlsson could have netted next to nothing... Zach O. (2nd rounder 2021)

Stutzle is following his countryman's lead. Sign way below market.. Who the F knows why????? Its gotta be a German thing!!!! Probably is. Germans in the Bundasliga rarely cause trouble when it comes to contracts and are relatively incident free. Most issues tend to be with foreign players.

Dorion cannot be given any credit.

Stutzle needs to fire his agent.

Stuztle got a fair contract

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

This would be the glaring weak spot... and assuming we manage to sign the RFA and UFA you have in that group, i'm not seeing how we address it.

I suspect DeBrincat is gone, if Dorion can get a decent return and resolve the goalie carousel, I think we'll be in pretty good shape. Maybe Sogaard or Merilainen is the answer, but that's a heck of a risk.

Can't expect GMs not to make mistakes, but the Murray acquisition/eventual trade away and Talbot Trade set us back imo.

Yes, goaltending has largely been a handicap for this team for a couple years now. Its really unfortunate and it's definitely the area of concern atm.

 

[Beech]

Stuztle got a fair contract

for the team... for him????

90 points, 78 games is roughly 96 points in 82.. That would have ranked him 14th in league scoring.

he is 51 in salary.

if his 90 +- 5 points hold and as others sign and move past him. As early as next season he will be in the 60's or 70's salary and top 20 in points.

now add year after year..

when you look at all 8 years, he will probably be around top 10 +-3 spots, point production and 100+- 5 spots salary.

Country man Leon D should be on suicide watch points the last 5 year 3+-1 spot. Salary 30+-2. By contract end points 3+- 1 spot.. Salary 50+- 5 spots.

New agent needed.. He and Leon Drai.. need to hold an Oktoberfest party in honor of their fired agents.

let's hope the kid holds up and a Nathan MacKinnon contract is waiting at the end.

 

[bert]

Idk Bert, you can't just look at the bad side of things and not consider the good.

We've discussed before the Stuetzle contract. Dorion had no leverage to get him to sign last summer. But he got him for 8 years in the low 8s. Suppose Stuetzle doesn't sign last summer. What the looking at this summer? At least 10 AAV. Compare that to Marner and Matthews. He probably saved the team 20M with that contract.

The SanJose trade did happen. It was a homerun. You can't just remove the best deal he's made because it suits you.

We've got a core signed and our worst contract might be Chabot's. He's built a team with a chance to win. We really have had that since the mid 2000s.

Dorion had Jack Hughes contract to work with. There has been far more bad than good. The only reason they even have Stutzle is an anomaly of a team collapsing. It's not hard to see the body of work it's well documented. He had the opportunity to burn down a team that went to the conference finals with the best players in their prime. They have missed the playoffs for 6 years has no prospect depth and no picks.

The Zibanejad, Duchene, Hoffman, Stone, Murray and now potentially the debrincat trades are all timers. Not even mentioning the Stepan, and Gustavsson trades. Unable to identify good players when they are here like Demelo and Duclair. He hit big on one that was luck. There is no way they projected that pick to be top 3.

 

[DJB]

You guys are still on the Balcers thing?

Dude it’s like an old girlfriend…move on! Lol

 

[Ouroboros]

Balcers will live forever in our hearts.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

That's a vastly different roster than this past season

That roster, blessed with health, easily makes the playoffs imo.

That roster last season could have made the playoffs if they stayed healthy.

Goaltending would have been much better. A full season from a centre who could have potted 30 or 40 goals and helped debrincat score a few more.

An even more dangerous powerplay.

If the senators can find a suitable replacement for debrincat and add a goalie I think thats a playoff team.

Not enough time to sign another gm before the draft and free agency... little reason to sack dorion afterwards. He will be on again this season. Probably DJ too

 

[Ice-Tray]

You guys are still on the Balcers thing?

Dude it’s like an old girlfriend…move on! Lol

And not a girlfriend worth remembering…. Like at all…..

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Stutzle contract had more to do with Stutzle than Dorion.

He values winning with the Ottawa Senators more than maximizing his earnings.

Footsteps of Alfie and Karlsson.