Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Tnuoc Alucard]

It's baffling people defend Dorion's record.

6 straight years of missing the playoffs. That ranks him among elite GMs like Milbury and MacLean.

It is long past time for change. I don't hate the guy. I don't wish him ill. He has failed to make a competitive team on a budget in Ottawa. He has failed to make a competitive team without a budget for the 2022-2023 season.

Next.

It’s baffling that some how you missed the rebuild announcement made about 6 years ago, that laid out the tear it down to the studs, acquire multiple draft picks and restructure the franchise from the ground up.

It seems you expected this process would have zero affect on the teams ability to qualify for the playoffs in each of those rebuilding years….. and it appears you’re the only one who expected to make the playoffs while the complete rebuild was underway.

Or, maybe you think we all forgot about the rebuild.

Toronto has a good young core, a bright future, and you're shitting all over the GM they just let go, nit-picking about minor trades and draft picks. They've averaged what, 106 pts/season over the last 5 years? And their top 3 players still have not hit their "primes".

Montreal has a good young core and future. So does Buffalo. So does Detroit. So does Columbus. So will Arizona as soon as they draft Connor Bedard.

Building a promising young core that the internet likes isn't the challenge. Winning something is.

so Chicago traded their draft pick to Arizona? Who did they acquire?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I am on team Dubas. I would love if the new ownership group brought in the Dubas-Pridham combination. Note also that I also have no hockey management experience and fail at most of what I do in life.

Yeah, he did such a fantastic job with essentially an unlimited budget, the ability to hire as many management personal, bury as many contracts as needed, fire and continue to pay as many coaches as he felt, trade for anyone he wanted and all the other trappings that go with the arguably the NHLs flagship franchise……. It would be such an easy move for him to come into the perhaps smallest Canadian Market, with all off the constraints that go along with that, and see how he would fail here, as he did in Toronto with all of those assets he had there, that are not available in Ottawa.

In short, he was an OHL GM, that sat beside Lou Lamoriello for a few seasons, and was handed the keys to the franchise over Lou Lamoriello, and with all of those advantages, failed.

 

[JD1]

Definitely an improvement over Dorion. What Dubas sucked at (long term deals with big players) is largely sorted out. What he was good at (finding value players to fill out a roster) is what we need. The bet he made was that the core 4 there would eventually figure it out. He gave them all the support they needed to be a better team than they were in the playoffs. All you can really ask for. And no I don't think he's the best GM out there or anything like that but he's very much middle of the pack whereas Dorion is bottom of the barrel.

Clear improvement. Especially with Norris, Tkachuk, Stutzle, Chabot, Batherson already signed.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I hadn't thought of that angle before. He can't get bent over because the big deals are all signed. I like it

 

[Micklebot]

which insiders. media insiders will say anything they’re not gonna say “yeah heard this guy who just joined the front office is an absolute moron”.

I suppose we're better off ignoring what people around the league, everything from media to players, were saying about him and just go with anonymous internet posters.

 

[Golden_Jet]

yeah exactly. some are. some arent. most arent. so why are people clamoring for spezza? most people have no spoken to him personally on hockey matters. and he hasn’t proven anything he has zero experience lol. so how can people know he’s good ir not.


which insiders. media insiders will say anything they’re not gonna say “yeah heard this guy who just joined the front office is an absolute moron”.

It’s always been thought he’d be in management, and that’s where he started as soon as he retired. He’ll likely do a good job, wherever he ends up.

 

[DJB]

Why?

Because the list is short or non existent hence why your argument is invalid and further supports my own

 

[Cosmix]

I think any GM regardless of situation or previous history would be nervous with new owners coming in.

You said this: "regardless of situation or previous history". I disagreed.

 

[Hockeysawks]

I was surprised that Shanahan said so much about the negotiations and discussions that took place with Dubas. I think a more experienced executive would have handled it differently and just say that the team was in negotiations with Dubas but based on the discussions to date decided that a change in GM would be the best way to proceed at this time.

I'm not suprised, Shanny is his boss and asked him not to talk to the media untill the contract was done. Dubas ignored him and decided to play the family card public negotiating game.
Shanny and the board had already worked out the new contract and Shanahan would have already told his bosses it was a done deal.

So Shanny returned the favor. Dubas lied to him made him look bad in front of the board and used the media to negotiate. Dubas recived his public negotiation

 

[hockeywiz542]

Former NHL President’s POV on Leafs’ GM Change | Kyper & Bourne

SPORTSNET

May 19, 2023 Real Kyper & Bourne

Former NHL President and GM Doug MacLean joined Nick Kypreos and Gord Stellick to give his perspective on the fallout of the Maple Leafs' front office.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

Dubas isn't becoming a GM here. If he's used to Toronto Maple Leafs GM salaries and a hockey ops department that's probably 5X bigger than ours, it won't make sense for him.

If PD goes, the replacement is going to be someone who is less experienced. Whoever our owners are will hopefully hire some more people support guys for the GM though.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

What's so strange?
Dorion could not get good value out of Stone, Hoffman, Turris... His only decent return was for Karlsson and that's based off San Jose crapping the bed.

Conversely, he has acquired a lot of top-shelf names (Debrincat, Duchene, Chychyrun) through trade for (at the time) low value.

On some you can look at it from 2 sides. So many pieces acquired through the rebuild via trade did not help in one way or another.
I'll agree with Stone. It was handled poorly and he was left with very few options
Hoffman ..again handled poorly in a panic
We acquired Duchene sending Turris , a 1st (top 4) and a recent 1st rounder to acquire Duchene. If you are on the side that thinks that trade was good we are differ on that.
In his last year he sent futures for Debrincat and now is faced with his 9m QO and probably getting less than what he paid. I don't like the acquisition for that reason and others although I like the player just not the time for it.
Chychrun we will see on .. but it looks like it could work .

not so positive acquisitions considering cost to acquire and the term/help provided to the team. Pro scouting has been much maligned for a reason.
Zaitsev/Brown with 1 year left on Ceci.
Duchene
Murray
Talbot
Stepan
Gudbranson
Sanford
J Brown
P Brown
Coburn
Pacquette
Brassard
etc

On the sell side
He got good value for
Duchene
Pageau
Murray
Karlsson
Dzingel
Lazar
Brassard

 

[HSF]

I'm not suprised, Shanny is his boss and asked him not to talk to the media untill the contract was done. Dubas ignored him and decided to play the family card public negotiating game.
Shanny and the board had already worked out the new contract and Shanahan would have already told his bosses it was a done deal.

So Shanny returned the favor. Dubas lied to him made him look bad in front of the board and used the media to negotiate. Dubas recived his public negotiation

I don't think the family card was a negotiation play as Dubas already mentioned his family to Shanny the day before

Also the contract was not a done deal at all. It seemed like Dubas did not want to be the GM unless he was given a shit ton of money.

For Dubas to come back to a higher salary and full control of decision makes me think he was not likely to come back and wanted to see what he could get

 

[HSF]

Former NHL President’s POV on Leafs’ GM Change | Kyper & Bourne

SPORTSNET

May 19, 2023 Real Kyper & Bourne

Former NHL President and GM Doug MacLean joined Nick Kypreos and Gord Stellick to give his perspective on the fallout of the Maple Leafs' front office.

My god I hope Kyper is no where near the sens organization

Sounds like a such a salty guy who has tried to get back into the league

 

[senswon]

Id be totally fine with making Dorion POH and make young Ryan Bowness GM.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Id be totally fine with making Dorion POH and make young Ryan Bowness GM.

Do you think any other franchise in the league would make Dorion poho?


So why should we?

 

[hockeywiz542]

My god I hope Kyper is no where near the sens organization

Sounds like a such a salty guy who has tried to get back into the league

I think you might be referring to former NHL President, GM and head coach Doug MacLean.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Dubas isn't becoming a GM here. If he's used to Toronto Maple Leafs GM salaries and a hockey ops department that's probably 5X bigger than ours, it won't make sense for him.

If PD goes, the replacement is going to be someone who is less experienced. Whoever our owners are will hopefully hire some more people support guys for the GM though.

so you’re saying Dubas will only work for like…4 teams?

i don’t want or not want him. but if we offer him a competitive salary he will be our GM lol.

 

[Hockeysawks]

On some you can look at it from 2 sides. So many pieces acquired through the rebuild via trade did not help in one way or another.
I'll agree with Stone. It was handled poorly and he was left with very few options
Hoffman ..again handled poorly in a panic
We acquired Duchene sending Turris , a 1st (top 4) and a recent 1st rounder to acquire Duchene. If you are on the side that thinks that trade was good we are differ on that.
In his last year he sent futures for Debrincat and now is faced with his 9m QO and probably getting less than what he paid. I don't like the acquisition for that reason and others although I like the player just not the time for it.
Chychrun we will see on .. but it looks like it could work .

not so positive acquisitions considering cost to acquire and the term/help provided to the team. Pro scouting has been much maligned for a reason.
Zaitsev/Brown with 1 year left on Ceci.
Duchene
Murray
Talbot
Stepan
Gudbranson
Sanford
J Brown
P Brown
Coburn
Pacquette
Brassard
etc

On the sell side
He got good value for
Duchene
Pageau
Murray
Karlsson
Dzingel
Lazar
Brassard

They got Debrincat to help fill the arena for the sale, it sucks but it was forced and they don't have to deal with the mess..
I still don't understand why people care about or count the tank team. You can't tank with good players and you do have to ice a team.

 

[BankStreetParade]

They got Debrincat to help fill the arena for the sale, it sucks but it was forced and they don't have to deal with the mess..
I still don't understand why people care about or count the tank team. You can't tank with good players and you do have to ice a team.

I love how they lord it over their heads like you can get high draft picks and be a playoff team at the same time.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I love how they lord it over their heads like you can get high draft picks and be a playoff team at the same time.

We've had Chabot and Brady for 6 and 5 years.

They are both near the 400 game mark, they have yet to play a meaningful game.

 

[LevelingSolo]

Would be down for Dubas but please no Keefe, guy get's out-coached constantly

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

so you’re saying Dubas will only work for like…4 teams?

i don’t want or not want him. but if we offer him a competitive salary he will be our GM lol.

I can't speak for much how our new ownership would offer as a salary to a GM. I think Dubas wouldn't come to our team right now. If ownership builds out a hockey ops team to support a GM, I could see Dubas interested at that time. But this is why I don't believe we're going to attract a high end GM right now, it's too much work. If they move on from PD right now, it'll be someone with little experience in that role. My guess is that they'll just keep PD for a year, try to build a support team and then switch GMs.

I don't care for him either way, but yeah I think he'll be picky about what he's going to do next. He had every luxury in Toronto, he's not going to go from that to the Dollarama.

 

[Cosmix]

I like that Shanahan actually told us what happened and did not give the standard answer.

It was more informative of what took place. I wonder if Dubas regrets saying what he did and thus cost himself the GM job. Probably yes is my guess since Shanahan said the Leafs made an offer.

Would be down for Dubas but please no Keefe, guy get's out-coached constantly

I am OK with Dubas as the new GM and I also don't want Keefe. I prefer coaches like Maurice.

 

[PlayersLtd]

Definitely an improvement over Dorion. What Dubas sucked at (long term deals with big players) is largely sorted out. What he was good at (finding value players to fill out a roster) is what we need. The bet he made was that the core 4 there would eventually figure it out. He gave them all the support they needed to be a better team than they were in the playoffs. All you can really ask for. And no I don't think he's the best GM out there or anything like that but he's very much middle of the pack whereas Dorion is bottom of the barrel.

Clear improvement. Especially with Norris, Tkachuk, Stutzle, Chabot, Batherson already signed.

Honest question but what is the track record of value players that Dubas acquired?

It seems like only this year that they finally had their deficiencies sorted out, depth and D. Strikes me however that there was 5 years of not being able to cement either, that's a long time. I don't see a big difference between Holland and Dubas in this regard.

Also, I give him credit for Samsonov but I think he solved the goaltending mess only by the skin of his teeth.

I just don't see it in Dubas at all. I think people feel sorry for him and think that he's a good guy that deserves a good situation (which is fair) but aren't measuring him on his successes.

 

[Cosmix]

Could maybe have been a good place for Dorion as they have to be optioning a tear down / rebuild and Dorion can sell players . Just leave the acquiring part to someone else.

I would not hire Dorion for any job.