Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Cosmix]

correct we don’t, but teams have access to those through their contract with sportlogiq

so they are not "intangible"?

 

[Cosmix]

The Shanahan Presser | 32 Thoughts

SPORTSNET

May 20, 2023 32 Thoughts

It was a late night and the Leafs make a major move! Jeff and Elliotte discuss Brendan Shanahan's press conference and recap the 4OT thriller. That and more on this full episode of 32 Thoughts!

----------------------------------------------

00:01 - Jeff and Elliotte discuss Brendan Shanahan's press conference as the Toronto Maple Leafs will not be bringing back Kyle Dubas as their GM

25:00 - They also recap the 4OT thriller between Florida-Carolina

I was surprised that Shanahan said so much about the negotiations and discussions that took place with Dubas. I think a more experienced executive would have handled it differently and just say that the team was in negotiations with Dubas but based on the discussions to date decided that a change in GM would be the best way to proceed at this time.

 

[Ouroboros]

Agree 45 is a lot

Turns out I grossly underestimated.

Management - 26
Scouting - 20
Player Development - 11
Nerd Virgins - 7

64 individuals listed on the Leafs website in hockey ops, and that's probably only the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Turns out I grossly underestimated.

Management - 26
Scouting - 20
Player Development - 11
Nerd Virgins - 7

64 individuals listed on the Leafs website in hockey ops, and that's probably only the tip of the iceberg.

more than a lot

 

[Senovision]

I was surprised that Shanahan said so much about the negotiations and discussions that took place with Dubas. I think a more experienced executive would have handled it differently and just say that the team was in negotiations with Dubas but based on the discussions to date decided that a change in GM would be the best way to proceed at this time.

I like that Shanahan actually told us what happened and did not give the standard answer.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Could maybe have been a good place for Dorion as they have to be optioning a tear down / rebuild and Dorion can sell players . Just leave the acquiring part to someone else.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Could maybe have been a good place for Dorion as they have to be optioning a tear down / rebuild and Dorion can sell players . Just leave the acquiring part to someone else.

Opposite. Dorion acquires well; sells awfully poorly.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Opposite. Dorion acquires well; sells awfully poorly.

 

[DJB]

I don't think so.

If a GM had a winning record, made the playoffs for the last 5 to 10 years, put together a promising and improving roster, went deep into the playoffs, got to the SC finals, and won the SC the prior season, I doubt he would be nervous.

List the # of GMs currently employed that meet that criteria.

 

[HSF]

Dubas might be a good choice as president of hockey ops esp with the late ownership change timeline

 

[Norris4Norris]

Dubas might be a good choice as president of hockey ops esp with the late ownership change timeline

I think Dubas proved he could take a Hart trophy winner and totally screw up the team around him to the point of hilarity and consistent playoff embarrassment.

Toronto taking Matt Murray was a smooth move by Dorion. Was Dubas hypnotized by Dorion's handsome smile

 

[Sens Vader]

I thought Andlauer wanted Staios

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I thought Andlauer wanted Staios

Its been speculated. Also speculated the Oilers may try to retain him

 

[Burrowsaurus]

So some are, some aren’t, nothing shocking there really.

yeah exactly. some are. some arent. most arent. so why are people clamoring for spezza? most people have no spoken to him personally on hockey matters. and he hasn’t proven anything he has zero experience lol. so how can people know he’s good ir not.

People think Spezza will be good because people in the industry have commented on it. I mean, none of us have likely worked with him in any capacity, so people are going off what insiders gave said. The alternative is to reject what insiders have said and just assume he's no different than any other unknown.

which insiders. media insiders will say anything they’re not gonna say “yeah heard this guy who just joined the front office is an absolute moron”.

 

[JimmyApples]

I think Dubas, like Dorion, is an alright GM.

His biggest mistake was signing Tavares. Slow, aging guy that plays 5 years older than he actually is. But even worse, signing him for $11M+ opened the door for Marner and Matthews to get paid. And look at Matthews deal - second highest AAV in NHL history, on a 5 year term that lets him become UFA at age 26 to walk into a max deal. Entire deal in signing bonuses. Front loaded. Literally a dream contract.

Trading for Murray was yuck. Their entire goaltending situation has been yuck. I like some of the bottom six signings and players he targets. He kinda got screwed by COVID and banking on the cap to rise with the deals, so he's been stuck with 4-5 players making big money and trying to bargain bin shop to fill out other areas. His attraction to Soo players is a little weird.

Also, remember, he had a much bulkier front office than Dorion has had. The Sens, under Melnyk, were super thin - cheap AGM's, small pro scout teams, no sort of organization structure outside of Dorion. Dubas had all the resources in the world.

I do think DJ and Dorion should probably be let go. Sucks, but it's a results-based business. They'll say we didn't get eliminated until the last few games of the season, but that's a losers mindset. We struggle hard out of the gate, clawed back in and gave ourselves a chance, then shit the bed to end the season.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Pretty good article here on Spezza .. I have heard from multiple NHL sources a lot of respect for Spezza and his obsession with hockey. Sounds like he'd be a good asset for any team in hockey ops somewhere. Would not be surprised if that ended up being in Dallas.

'He's a lifer': Why Jason Spezza was destined for a front-office role with the Maple Leafs

Some guys like hockey. Spezza ate it. Slept it. Breathed it. It's no surprise he'll make the leap from star player to Leafs front office.

theathletic.com

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

yeah exactly. some are. some arent. most arent. so why are people clamoring for spezza? most people have no spoken to him personally on hockey matters. and he hasn’t proven anything he has zero experience lol. so how can people know he’s good ir not.


which insiders. media insiders will say anything they’re not gonna say “yeah heard this guy who just joined the front office is an absolute moron”.

It's probably a combination of how Ottawa has historically hired with cheap unknowns/guys without much for options, hence cheap, a reflection of how people feel about Dorion, and knowing no GM is a sure thing. Lots of names tossed around and the theme I read seems to be consistent that most just want change in the GM seat, whether right or wrong. Spezza is a guy that seems like he could realistically be hired under Ottawa's traditional hiring requirements of coming cheap and having local connections.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

What's so strange?
Dorion could not get good value out of Stone, Hoffman, Turris... His only decent return was for Karlsson and that's based off San Jose crapping the bed.

Conversely, he has acquired a lot of top-shelf names (Debrincat, Duchene, Chychyrun) through trade for (at the time) low value.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Penguins to ask for permission to talk to former Maple Leafs GM Kyle Dubas

The Penguins need to hire a new general manager and president of hockey operations after firing Ron Hextall and Brian Burke after missing out on the playoffs.

www.sportsnet.ca

The team has begun conducting interviews and has already interviewed upwards of a dozen candidates for the GM role.

"Pittsburgh has deepened their search. There was a chance I think we could know next week. But at the very least now I think they're going to reach out and gauge what his interest is," Friedman said on Hockey Night in Canada. "I don't know what the answer to that question is. But I do think the Penguins are going to reach out to at least get permission to talk to him and see where he is."

Marc Bergevin, the former Montreal Canadiens GM and current advisor to Los Angeles Kings GM Rob Blake, plus former Edmonton Oilers GM and current St. Louis Blues VP of hockey ops Peter Chiarelli were among the candidates interviewed by the Penguins, Friedman reported earlier this week.

Friedman reports that there was a lot of shock within the Leafs organization following the news that Dubas would not be returning as general manager.

"On Wednesday, there was a big meeting between the coaches, some of the executives about how to make the team better and Dubas was there and he was running it." Friedman said. "I think a lot of people thought that was for sure a sign staying."

"One thing I had heard that Dubis had proposed was streamlining the decision-making process of the organization. I don't necessarily mean think that means that he was going to cut out Shanahan or anything like that. But I heard that he found that it was too slow like it was Dubas, Shanahan, the board then come all the way back down, and I did hear he proposed something where they could try to do this stuff a lot faster."

 

[Cosmix]

List the # of GMs currently employed that meet that criteria.

Why?

 

[Ice-Tray]

I think you used the term "intangible" by mistake as some of the things you identified can be identified by the senses. Perhaps you meant "difficult to track or not tracked"?

Definition:

intangible

ĭn-tăn′jə-bəl

adjective​

1. Incapable of being perceived by the senses.
2. Incapable of being realized or defined.
3. Incorporeal.

He should be uncomfortable, given the team results of the last few years.

Lol no.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I was surprised that Shanahan said so much about the negotiations and discussions that took place with Dubas. I think a more experienced executive would have handled it differently and just say that the team was in negotiations with Dubas but based on the discussions to date decided that a change in GM would be the best way to proceed at this time.

You missed the point I think. They wanted to make sure that they released every detail on purpose so that they had the release explained. Shanny was doing his part in a larger PR play to avoid backlash on what seemed to be a blindside firing of an open and sensitive, beloved GM who was offered an extension.

It’s pretty much the opposite of a rookie move.

 

[R2010]

Dubas as a president with Spezza and Alfredsson in support roles eh, Idk if I'm on board, but we could do worse.

Definitely an improvement over Dorion. What Dubas sucked at (long term deals with big players) is largely sorted out. What he was good at (finding value players to fill out a roster) is what we need. The bet he made was that the core 4 there would eventually figure it out. He gave them all the support they needed to be a better team than they were in the playoffs. All you can really ask for. And no I don't think he's the best GM out there or anything like that but he's very much middle of the pack whereas Dorion is bottom of the barrel.

Clear improvement. Especially with Norris, Tkachuk, Stutzle, Chabot, Batherson already signed.

 

[Tuna99]

Definitely an improvement over Dorion. What Dubas sucked at (long term deals with big players) is largely sorted out. What he was good at (finding value players to fill out a roster) is what we need. The bet he made was that the core 4 there would eventually figure it out. He gave them all the support they needed to be a better team than they were in the playoffs. All you can really ask for. And no I don't think he's the best GM out there or anything like that but he's very much middle of the pack whereas Dorion is bottom of the barrel.

Clear improvement. Especially with Norris, Tkachuk, Stutzle, Chabot, Batherson already signed.

I feel Dubas might have quit the Leafs because he wants to win a Cup and he sees Ottawa as his best chance of doing that. As a young GM who somehow wizarded his reputation on building NHL roster how can he not look this Sens roster and. It be in awe:

Sanderson (the best player of the group and that’s saying something when you see the list to come because it has 3 and maybe 4 Hall of Famers on it - could be 5 HOF players on this list)
Stutzle
Tkachuk
Chabot
Norris
Batherson
De Brincat
Giroux
Chychryn
Pinto
Zub
Formenton
and Kleven, Greig, Ostapchuk, Boucher in the pipeline.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

I often wonder the same about Daniel Alfredsson.

The trolling schtick is getting old bro.