Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Micklebot]

I think our D core is pretty great right now and will still grow with Sanderson in particular. Only concerns are tendency for injury from Chabot and Chychrun and that it’s a little light. I’m pretty confident Zub will bounce back from a poor year. Definitely the first time since the ECF that we’ve had 4 top 4 defenders.

For argument’s sake I’d say these are better or equal off the top of my head:

Colorado - Makar, Toews, Byram, Manson
NYR - Fox, Miller, Trouba, Lindgren
Car: Slavin, Pesce, Burns, Skjej
LV: Pietrangelo, Theodore, McNabb, Martinez
TB: Sergachev, Hedman, Cernak, Cole
Dal: Heiskanen, Suter, Lindell, Hakanpaa
Boston: Lindholm, McAvoy, Carlo, Orlov(if he extends)
I think NJD joins the list soon: Hamilton, Marino, Siegenthaler, Nemec/Hughes

Given ages, that doesn’t mean I’d necessarily trade our D for those. Pretty good company though.

By no means is that a definitive list, but I found a top 50 D for 2023 list on NHL.com, we have 3 guys in their top 50. It's a fantasy league list so probably undervalues certain players but puts a bit of perspective to our situation.


Col has 4
NYR 2
Car 2
VGK 2
TB 2
DAL 1
BOS 2
NJD 2

Fantasy hockey top 50 defenseman rankings | NHL.com

Most valuable options at position for standard leagues; new podcast episodes

www.nhl.com

 

[Senovision]

There are lots of intangibles that make defencemen really good to have on your team and are important to playing defence.
Hitting, and being able to take hits and not cough the puck up, moving players out of the front of the net, not giving opposing players second chance opportunities, creating fear in opposing players, fighting, being nasty to play against, blocking shots which is hugely important in playoff hockey etc....
These are just a list of a few of the intangibles. There are many more that could be added to my list.
There are defencemen that are not on the list of top 50 NHL defencemen that bring a lot of important intangibles that are needed to develop a successful defence core on any team.

 

[JD1]

I think our D core is pretty great right now and will still grow with Sanderson in particular. Only concerns are tendency for injury from Chabot and Chychrun and that it’s a little light. I’m pretty confident Zub will bounce back from a poor year. Definitely the first time since the ECF that we’ve had 4 top 4 defenders.

For argument’s sake I’d say these are better or equal off the top of my head:

Colorado - Makar, Toews, Byram, Manson
NYR - Fox, Miller, Trouba, Lindgren
Car: Slavin, Pesce, Burns, Skjej
LV: Pietrangelo, Theodore, McNabb, Martinez
TB: Sergachev, Hedman, Cernak, Cole
Dal: Heiskanen, Suter, Lindell, Hakanpaa
Boston: Lindholm, McAvoy, Carlo, Orlov(if he extends)
I think NJD joins the list soon: Hamilton, Marino, Siegenthaler, Nemec/Hughes

Given ages, that doesn’t mean I’d necessarily trade our D for those. Pretty good company though.

Ya that's not a bad list. There's company, just not a lot imo.

And I'd agree given the ages, not sure who I'd swap with.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

There are lots of intangibles that make defencemen really good to have on your team and are important to playing defence.
Hitting, and being able to take hits and not cough the puck up, moving players out of the front of the net, not giving opposing players second chance opportunities, creating fear in opposing players, fighting, being nasty to play against, blocking shots which is hugely important in playoff hockey etc....
These are just a list of a few of the intangibles. There are many more that could be added to my list.
There are defencemen that are not on the list of top 50 NHL defencemen that bring a lot of important intangibles that are needed to develop a successful defence core on any team.

This is a list of what people think Hamonic does, but he does not.

 

[Mingus Dew]

So this

How many teams have a top 4 D core signed for two years better than

Chabot, Sanderson, Zub, Chychrun

And a 5th D in Brannstrom that can step up

I've read posts that say he can't build a D core. Who's better that that group? There's not a single guy where you question can he play top 4.

Definitely as good as it’s been in a while. Certainly on paper.

Then again this D unit got caved in by the Chicago Blackhawks last year and didn’t look all that elite outside of the handful of games right after the TDL.

We will see. I think we’re counting our chickens a bit here. Zub in particular worries me after last year but I’m hoping it was injury related.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Definitely as good as it’s been in a while. Certainly on paper.

Then again this D unit got caved in by the Chicago Blackhawks last year and didn’t look all that elite outside of the handful of games right after the TDL.

We will see. I think we’re counting our chickens a bit here. Zub in particular worries me after last year but I’m hoping it was injury related.

Its improved on paper but unproven as a group. We would want to them show more than they did in a small sample last year. (Sanderson aside). Chabot and Zub both need better seasons.

Not a lot of sand paper or "hard to play against" in that group but we should look to get some of that in the 3rd pair. I understand its not necessary if you can get to pucks, win battles and move it efficiently. I just like to have opposing forwards to feel uncomfortable.

Short term (1-2 years) there are a few teams that can match up. Have to see how they do as a group and where we are at with the group given some time to get the right fits.

 

[Micklebot]

Definitely as good as it’s been in a while. Certainly on paper.

Then again this D unit got caved in by the Chicago Blackhawks last year and didn’t look all that elite outside of the handful of games right after the TDL.

We will see. I think we’re counting our chickens a bit here. Zub in particular worries me after last year but I’m hoping it was injury related.

To be fair, we outshot Chicago 47 to 21 that game and that same Chi team stomped the Bruins 8 days later.

 

[ijif]

I think our D core is pretty great right now and will still grow with Sanderson in particular. Only concerns are tendency for injury from Chabot and Chychrun and that it’s a little light. I’m pretty confident Zub will bounce back from a poor year. Definitely the first time since the ECF that we’ve had 4 top 4 defenders.

For argument’s sake I’d say these are better or equal off the top of my head:

Colorado - Makar, Toews, Byram, Manson
NYR - Fox, Miller, Trouba, Lindgren
Car: Slavin, Pesce, Burns, Skjej
LV: Pietrangelo, Theodore, McNabb, Martinez
TB: Sergachev, Hedman, Cernak, Cole
Dal: Heiskanen, Suter, Lindell, Hakanpaa
Boston: Lindholm, McAvoy, Carlo, Orlov(if he extends)
I think NJD joins the list soon: Hamilton, Marino, Siegenthaler, Nemec/Hughes

Given ages, that doesn’t mean I’d necessarily trade our D for those. Pretty good company though.

Using the players you listed, this was the amount of WAR that each group provided from this past regular season (Evolving-hockey's model):

OTT: 4.4
COL: 6.9
NYR: 5.6
CAR: 5.4
VGK: 6.6
T.B: 2.4
DAL: 5.2
BOS: 7.3

 

[Mingus Dew]

To be fair, we outshot Chicago 47 to 21 that game and that same Chi team stomped the Bruins 8 days later.

I mean sure I’m just saying a lot of this is hypothetical based on how Zub was playing 2 years ago, how Chabot has played in the past and how Chychrun played in his first few games.

Chychrun is also a bit of a glass cannon and I worry about slotting him in for more than 60 games or so.

The D is as good as it’s been in a long time though.

 

[Micklebot]

Using the players you listed, this was the amount of WAR that each group provided from this past regular season (Evolving-hockey's model):

OTT: 4.4
COL: 6.9
NYR: 5.6
CAR: 5.4
VGK: 6.6
T.B: 2.4
DAL: 5.2
BOS: 7.3

I'm always a bit leery about all encompassing models.

Out of curiosity, is that a count or rate based measure, as in, does 4.4 for Ottawa reflect the fact that Chabot, Chychrun and Zub all missed considerable time while NYR and Car d cores were mostly healthy?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

"Brad Treliving is now the favourite to replace him as Leafs GM."
Not sure this will be better for the Leafs. Which is ok with me.

 

[Golden_Jet]

"Brad Treliving is now the favourite to replace him as Leafs GM."
Not sure this will be better for the Leafs. Which is ok with me.

Doesn’t seem like a lot of great GMs available, at least in the experience kind

 

[Senscore]

The Athletic reporting that Shanahan had blocked some trades Dubas wanted to make over the past several seasons.


Not surprising but it's good to get at least a little confirmation to that. Clearly Shanahan was the top dog.


Would be very interesting to know if any of those deals included the core 4. Potentially game changing stuff.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Mirtle: With Kyle Dubas gone, prepare for more Maple Leafs front-office fallout

The Maple Leafs' parting ways with Kyle Dubas is likely the beginning of front-office upheaval with the team.

theathletic.com

While Shanahan will need a new GM in place to make moves like that, it’s apparent that whoever joins the Leafs in that role will likely be informed that more than cosmetic changes are required.

Given how complex the Leafs roster decisions are going to be this offseason, getting that GM hire right will be imperative. Without Dubas, the Leafs front office is low on experienced hands, and with so many currently in place contemplating their futures, the exodus could create even more uncertainty as the draft and free agency approach at the end of next month.

As for Dubas’ future, while he stated on Monday that he didn’t anticipate quickly relocating to a new role, the thinking around the league right now is that his views may change if he receives a significant offer in a role with full autonomy in the coming months. The situation in Ottawa, in particular, could be intriguing, with new, deep-pocketed ownership and a young roster on the rise.

A front office with the rival Senators that included Dubas as president and Spezza and Daniel Alfredsson in supporting roles would certainly make things interesting in the Atlantic Division.

Not that the Maple Leafs will need any help creating headlines at this point given the organizational upheaval that is going to continue to unfold this offseason.

 

[Micklebot]

Mirtle: With Kyle Dubas gone, prepare for more Maple Leafs front-office fallout

The Maple Leafs' parting ways with Kyle Dubas is likely the beginning of front-office upheaval with the team.

theathletic.com

While Shanahan will need a new GM in place to make moves like that, it’s apparent that whoever joins the Leafs in that role will likely be informed that more than cosmetic changes are required.

Given how complex the Leafs roster decisions are going to be this offseason, getting that GM hire right will be imperative. Without Dubas, the Leafs front office is low on experienced hands, and with so many currently in place contemplating their futures, the exodus could create even more uncertainty as the draft and free agency approach at the end of next month.

As for Dubas’ future, while he stated on Monday that he didn’t anticipate quickly relocating to a new role, the thinking around the league right now is that his views may change if he receives a significant offer in a role with full autonomy in the coming months. The situation in Ottawa, in particular, could be intriguing, with new, deep-pocketed ownership and a young roster on the rise.

A front office with the rival Senators that included Dubas as president and Spezza and Daniel Alfredsson in supporting roles would certainly make things interesting in the Atlantic Division.

Not that the Maple Leafs will need any help creating headlines at this point given the organizational upheaval that is going to continue to unfold this offseason.

Dubas as a president with Spezza and Alfredsson in support roles eh, Idk if I'm on board, but we could do worse.

 

[Ouroboros]

It's interesting. People on here are constantly lamenting the lack of a POHO or whatever in the Senators front office, but it seems like these relationships almost always result in disharmony and power struggles. Too many cooks and whatnot.

Hockey really isn't that complicated. You don't need 45 people in your front office to figure it out.

From the outside, Toronto's front office looks like a bureaucratic dystopia.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

We’re told the idea that Dubas would take over in Pittsburgh was more smoke than fire. One source: “I think Kyle’s waiting for Ottawa.”

Quick Shifts: Why Treliving is in the mix to be Maple Leafs’ next GM

Stan Bowman and Brad Treliving should be in mix for Leafs GM job, Gerard Gallant wants back in, Coyotes must move and nine more NHL goodies in this edition of Luke Fox's Quick Shifts.

www.sportsnet.ca

"Kyle Davidson tanked with the best of ’em". Hard to argue he acquired Zaitsev. Would have been cool if Dorion attached a pick coming back if Chicago won the lottery.

 

[BankStreetParade]

We’re told the idea that Dubas would take over in Pittsburgh was more smoke than fire. One source: “I think Kyle’s waiting for Ottawa.”

Quick Shifts: Why Treliving is in the mix to be Maple Leafs’ next GM

Stan Bowman and Brad Treliving should be in mix for Leafs GM job, Gerard Gallant wants back in, Coyotes must move and nine more NHL goodies in this edition of Luke Fox's Quick Shifts.

www.sportsnet.ca

"Kyle Davidson tanked with the best of ’em". Hard to argue he acquired Zaitsev. Would have been cool if Dorion attached a pick coming back if Chicago won the lottery.

Even with new ownership, do we have $4-5M for a GM (apparently wanted $6-7M from Toronto)? Plus a POHO? Plus an expanded scouting staff? Plus additional front office personnel? Plus an experienced head coach? Etc.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Even with new ownership, do we have $4-5M for a GM (apparently wanted $6-7M from Toronto)? Plus a POHO? Plus an expanded scouting staff? Plus additional front office personnel? Plus an experienced head coach? Etc.

I hope we have more than we do now.. No idea how they will chose to run things .

 

[DJB]

I’ll say this, Pierre is very uncomfortable right now with the impending new ownership

 

[Wondercarrot]

Even with new ownership, do we have $4-5M for a GM (apparently wanted $6-7M from Toronto)? Plus a POHO? Plus an expanded scouting staff? Plus additional front office personnel? Plus an experienced head coach? Etc.

Dude. Neko Sparkes.
it’s like you think these people are not already involved in the consortium.

 

[Wondercarrot]

I’ll say this, Pierre is very uncomfortable right now with the impending new ownership

If I was a 1st time GM who missed the playoffs a league high 6 years in a row, a poor communicator, who is sitting on no draft picks for this year; in large measure for a player who may play here one year, & a legacy of previously despised ownership I would also be very uncomfortable - regardless of the optimism around the roster.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

why are people on twitter so into spezza in any sort of role. what evidence is there that he knows f***ing anything

 

[God Says No]

why are people on twitter so into spezza in any sort of role. what evidence is there that he knows f***ing anything

I don't get it either.

Give me Dubas as GM, Bowness AGM, Gallant HC.

 

[Daffy]

I don't get it either.

Give me Dubas as GM, Bowness AGM, Gallant HC.

f*** no on Gallant?

And why Dubas? He's shown he can't build a team that can compete in the playoffs.