Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Puikiou]

So you admit we have a good young core with a bright future?

But you're going to nit pick that we lost some draft picks in the process? That's the hill you're willing to die on?

Your commitment to the defense of mediocrity is admirable.

As was the point of the post, can't trust a guy who took 6+ years to collect 4 quarters when he was handed a dollar at the start.

Despite ample opportunity, Pierre Dorion hasn't done a thing to establish that he's a top executive in the league that can uphold a standard of accountabilty and foster a winning culture. Zero confidence in his ability to architect of a Stanley Cup winning organization.

 

[GoSenatorsGo]

Dave Poulin is another guy I’d like to see get brought into the org..I know Simmer has always spoke highly of him and I always enjoy listening to him either on a broadcast or his morning hits on TSN 1200. I think he has a very strong mind for the game

 

[bicboi64]

Matthews/Marner had the Leafs over the barrel from the get-go. They were clearly the best players on a team that was actively competing for a spot in the playoffs. The Leafs were in no position to dictate what they wanted with either player, and if they tried, the threat of them sitting out for a season was legitimate leverage.

I agree with most of what you posted except this. If Marner and Matthews wanted the high cap hit, that's one thing, but to not get the 7-8 year deals done is what sunk Toronto. If they had played hardball and let them sit, they could've gotten the deals they needed. If not, the packages they'd have commanded would have let them retool very fast.

Heck, Brady missed training camp over negotiations. The Leafs had guys like JT that could've played for a bit, the deals to their core were management "losing"

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Will Dorion get this kind of respect from his fellow GMs when he is let go?

LeBrun: Rival NHL GMs weigh in on Kyle Dubas after his split with the Maple Leafs

Former Flames GM Brad Treliving on Dubas: "Kyle is a smart, calculated and thoughtful manager, and he did a good job."

theathletic.com

 

[Senscore]

He was extending his career with 1 yr deals to play in his hometown, it was there or retire at that point, there's nothing wrong with that and there's certainly nothing wrong with him saying he'd retire if claimed at that point either.

He wants a career in management, it's pretty much a given that it won't be exclusively in Toronto and he's smart enough to understand that. Every player in the league, every GM every POHO, they all had favourite teams growing up they all have home towns. Holding it against Spezza because he had a chance to play and work for him is dumb.

Once again, I'm perfectly aware that most if not all hockey personnel has a favorite team growing up. Few end up showing the same level of loyalty Jason Spezza has by this point in his career to said childhood team. He most definitely left money on the table based on the level of production he achieved in his final few seasons. He's perfectly entitled to do so. Never implied he wasn't.

I guess we'll now see what he really wants and how badly he wants it. Is he willing to move his family to Anaheim or Columbus? How about Winnipeg or St. Louis? Arizona? Philadelphia? He has the benefit of starting his management career as a very rich man who can simply decide to stay put where he is if he prefers and wait for something to come along.

Would rather not be the team taking a chance on him, because I get the feeling once Shanahan is gone he'll be the first one knocking on the door with a resume.

 

[JaredCowen4Norris]

I agree with most of what you posted except this. If Marner and Matthews wanted the high cap hit, that's one thing, but to not get the 7-8 year deals done is what sunk Toronto. If they had played hardball and let them sit, they could've gotten the deals they needed. If not, the packages they'd have commanded would have let them retool very fast.

Heck, Brady missed training camp over negotiations. The Leafs had guys like JT that could've played for a bit, the deals to their core were management "losing"

I couldn't see a world in where they would have flipped them if they held out. Those two were touted as the core they were building around. The same way that we wouldn't be flipping Stutzle or Tkachuk if they held out. I agree that it would have been the best course of action, but I don't think many teams would actually do that in practice.

If we're talking what sunk them, it was signing Tavares to that fat contract. They would have had a lot more room to add complimentary pieces to the Matthews/Marner/Nylander core. It was very obvious that signing JT was going to cause cap problems quickly, but they did it anyway. Not sure if that signing sits on Dubas, Shanahan/MLSE, or the whole org, but they really handcuffed themselves. Happy they did though lol

 

[Ralph Malfredsson]

I am on team Dubas. I would love if the new ownership group brought in the Dubas-Pridham combination. Note also that I also have no hockey management experience and fail at most of what I do in life.

 

[swiftwin]

Your commitment to the defense of mediocrity is admirable.

Your commitment to a quick fixed instead of a properly built team with a long term focus is admirable.

Delayed gratification is a something usually learned during a developmental phase when you're a toddler. I'm surprised you haven't figured that out yet.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

so looks like leafs have cap space this off-season?

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I guarantee Dubas will get another GM job while Dorion will never get a GM job again.

Anyone want to take that bet with me?

@swiftwin ?

 

[HSF]

bring in Dubas Alfie and Spezza

 

[bicboi64]

I couldn't see a world in where they would have flipped them if they held out. Those two were touted as the core they were building around. The same way that we wouldn't be flipping Stutzle or Tkachuk if they held out. I agree that it would have been the best course of action, but I don't think many teams would actually do that in practice.

If we're talking what sunk them, it was signing Tavares to that fat contract. They would have had a lot more room to add complimentary pieces to the Matthews/Marner/Nylander core. It was very obvious that signing JT was going to cause cap problems quickly, but they did it anyway. Not sure if that signing sits on Dubas, Shanahan/MLSE, or the whole org, but they really handcuffed themselves. Happy they did though lol

I also think we'd have flipped if we ended up with Stu or Brady to their current cap hits but didn't get 7 years minimum. The JT contract definitely was the start of the end, but letting the other guys get away without at least 7 years closed their window. Tkachuk missed 3 games into the season, management showed some backbone with him, even though he was our unicorn.equivalent of either Marner/Matthews. Dubas was willing to let his stars sit (Nylander), should've showed that backbone earlier

 

[Ice-Tray]

No need for Dubas.

 

[Samsquanch]

Dave Poulin is another guy I’d like to see get brought into the org..I know Simmer has always spoke highly of him and I always enjoy listening to him either on a broadcast or his morning hits on TSN 1200. I think he has a very strong mind for the game

Huge, huge fan of Poulin. I'm shocked that he's not a part of another organization right now. He's always got a super smart take imo.

If we somehow brought in Alfie, Dubas, Spezza and Poulin into our various upper management roles, I would be over the moon with excitement. It would be the dream team for me.

 

[Hockeysawks]

I guarantee Dubas will get another GM job while Dorion will never get a GM job again.

Anyone want to take that bet with me?

@swiftwin ?

Are you sure? The Sens owner just died who do you think is running things these days?
From empty building and fan hate to a fun building an extremely bright future and a nice increase in value for the sale.
He has shown to be one hell of employee and a decent GM

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Are you sure? The Sens owner just died who do you think is running things these days?
From empty building and fan hate to a fun building an extremely bright future and a nice increase in value for the sale.
He has shown to be one hell of employee and a decent GM

Yes I'm sure.

Pierre Dorion will never be an NHL GM again.

 

[Hockeysawks]

Yes I'm sure.

Pierre Dorion will never be an NHL GM again.

No you are sure he won't work for "your team"
Actual owners will see a guy that stepped-up when it mattered the most and absolutely delivered.
There will be another Toronto situation one day and he will get a call, you can say what you want but he has shown he can run a NHL team.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

No you are sure he won't work for "your team"
Actual owners will see a guy that stepped-up when it mattered the most and absolutely delivered.
There will be another Toronto situation one day and he will get a call, you can say what you want but he has shown he can run a NHL team.

If there is another Melnyk situation, where an old guy cheap owner is about to die and whom no one credible wants to work for and who basically is cheaping out because he wants to sell the team and tries to pay everyone below the going rate.

In that specific scenario maybe Dorion has a chance.

 

[swiftwin]

Yes I'm sure.

Pierre Dorion will never be an NHL GM again.

Bookmarked.

 

[Hockeysawks]

If there is another Melnyk situation, where an old guy cheap owner is about to die and whom no one credible wants to work for and who basically is cheaping out because he wants to sell the team and tries to pay everyone below the going rate.

In that specific scenario maybe Dorion has a chance.

You do understand that you are pointing out how big of a disadvantage Dorion has had to overcome in his current position? You are reinforcing the fact that hes good

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

You do understand that you are pointing out how big of a disadvantage Dorion has had to overcome in his current position? You are reinforcing the fact that hes good

Yes Dorion was at a disadvantage because Melnyk was a lil crazy and cheap. But the only reason Dorion was made GM was because Melnyk was a lil crazy and cheap.

We can do so much better, world class hockey minds will be throwing themselves at our team soon because there are only 1 of 32 jobs in the world.

Tanking and accumulating talent through a system specifically designed to do that is not hard to do. The opposite is harder to do.

The problem is how many times Dorion has shot himself in the foot, his lack of ability in acquiring good and cheap depth and overpaying for bad and expensive depth, and his complete lack of leadership and inspirational ability.

He is not a leader. We can do better.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Spezza resigning is an absolute eye-opener. Wow, did not expect that. Do not want any part of him here. Looks like Shanahan is cleaning house and bringing in new minds and vision.

Dubas underestimated the toughness required in the playoffs & while he had the money & the resources he never fixed that problem thinking his soft skilled players would over come & did not.

He brought in O'Reilly, Accari, McCabe, Schenn, Lafferty just this 1 TDL.

All were an absolute presence in the playoffs. It was the core that didn't get it done. Matthews, Marner, Tavares (Dubas' fault), and to extent Nylander.

 

[JD1]

The dcore we are going into next season with actually looks pretty darn good imho.

Chychrun, 25 yrs old; 23rd in pts/60 all situations over the last 3 years (1000+ mins)
Chabot, 26 yrs old; 41st in pts/60 all situations over the last 3 years (1000+ mins)
Sanderson, 20 yrs old; Stud young 2 way defender looking like a potential #1 for years to come
Zub, 27 yrs old; solid 2 way defender, leans towards the defensive side.
Brannstrom, 23 yrs old; Taken big steps last year, can play up the lineup and on both special teams
Kleven, 21 yrs old, mobile. physical defensive dman that can blast the puck
JBD, 22 yrs old, utility guy that plays a safe game.

That's a young, mobile group, with a fair bit of puck moving potential, I think teams will be jealous of that group in the next 3 years.

So this

How many teams have a top 4 D core signed for two years better than

Chabot, Sanderson, Zub, Chychrun

And a 5th D in Brannstrom that can step up

I've read posts that say he can't build a D core. Who's better that that group? There's not a single guy where you question can he play top 4.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I guarantee Dubas will get another GM job while Dorion will never get a GM job again.

Anyone want to take that bet with me?

@swiftwin ?

Probably about as good as your other guarantees lol.

 

[Bileur]

So this

How many teams have a top 4 D core signed for two years better than

Chabot, Sanderson, Zub, Chychrun

And a 5th D in Brannstrom that can step up

I've read posts that say he can't build a D core. Who's better that that group? There's not a single guy where you question can he play top 4.

I think our D core is pretty great right now and will still grow with Sanderson in particular. Only concerns are tendency for injury from Chabot and Chychrun and that it’s a little light. I’m pretty confident Zub will bounce back from a poor year. Definitely the first time since the ECF that we’ve had 4 top 4 defenders.

For argument’s sake I’d say these are better or equal off the top of my head:

Colorado - Makar, Toews, Byram, Manson
NYR - Fox, Miller, Trouba, Lindgren
Car: Slavin, Pesce, Burns, Skjej
LV: Pietrangelo, Theodore, McNabb, Martinez
TB: Sergachev, Hedman, Cernak, Cole
Dal: Heiskanen, Suter, Lindell, Hakanpaa
Boston: Lindholm, McAvoy, Carlo, Orlov(if he extends)
I think NJD joins the list soon: Hamilton, Marino, Siegenthaler, Nemec/Hughes

Given ages, that doesn’t mean I’d necessarily trade our D for those. Pretty good company though.