Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[DaveMatthew]

There are lots of teams over the years that have proven that wrong.

But again, having a good D is something you want when you are trying to compete, and something you don't really care as much about when the goal is to draft high.

Trent Mann should get more blame than he does for our D position.

In 2018 he took JBD in the first round, before Rasmus Sandin and Mattias Samuelsson, after trading down from the pick that selected K'Andre Miller. In round 2 he took Tychonik, just before Sean Durzi, Kevin Bahl and Calen Addison.

In 2019 he took Lassi Thomson, who's unlikely to be part of this organization past June.

And I'd imagine he had a big role in us trading Mark Stone for Erik Brannstrom, considering Brannstrom was just a season out from his draft year.

If one of those guys had panned out as a legit top 4 guy, we wouldn't have been in such a crunch to make a trade.

But Brannstrom is what he is, and at this point, hopefully JBD can carve out a role as a #6.

 

[Senovision]

Dubas has left a huge mess in Toronto for the new GM to clean up.
Limited draft picks.
Lots of contracts to figure out.
Goaltending situation.
And who knows what will become of Matthews, Marner, and Nylander.......and those are 3 big players.

 

[swiftwin]

John Marino was available in the summer for a 2nd round pick + prospect.

Is Jake Chychrun better than John Marino? Yes.

But would the "rebuild" be in better shape if we had John Marino + a 1st in 2023 instead of Jake Chychrun and a 2nd in 2023?

Potentially.

The idea that this rebuild has been perfectly executed, like you seem to believe, is baffling. There's been a lot of good. And a lot of bad. Which is why we are where we are. A team with potential but no sure bet to make the playoffs next year, or the year after.

Outside of the Ottawa market, the perception of Ottawa's future from impartial observers, compared to other NHL teams, is not nearly as rosy.

And with all that said, for new owners, the past won't matter that much when it comes to Dorion and DJ. They won't dwell on whether it was smart to bring in Eric Gudbranson for 1 season.

The question they, and their advisors, will ask is, "Are these the two who will take this team from meaningful games to Stanley Cup contention?"

I would bet that the consensus will be, in the words of Daniel Alfredsson, "probably not."

You keep making these bizarre unsubstantiated claims.

There absolutely is quite a bit of buzz about the team and the future this core has. Giroux brought it up unprompted. Chychrun's agent also brought it up, and even went as far to say that Chychrun blocked a trade to a different team because he wanted to come to Ottawa. The agent then said that around the league, among impartial observers, there's a ton of buzz.

I never said the rebuild was perfectly executed. No GM in the league bats a 1.000. But the job Dorion has done with the rebuild has been excellent.

When advisors look at the team, they will see a GM that has assembled a great young core, and locked most of it down with fantastic contracts. Plus, most of his best moves have been done in the past year or two, proving his ability to make good moves to bring the team from meaningful games to Stanley Cup contention.

Like you said, they won't nit pick the hole fillers and the Gudbransons of the world that Dorion brought in during the depths of the rebuild.

It painfully obvious that you and the anti-Dorion crowd don't want to admit you were wrong all these years, and are contorting yourselves with mental gymnastics instead.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I think the rebuild is somewhere in the middle, mistakes were made (Murray, Dadonov, for example) some risks were taken (DeBrincat) but the future certainly looks promising

No GM gets everything right, if the standard is perfection you'll be perpetually disappointed. There are moves to be critical of to be sure, not convinced a hypothetical acquisition of Marino that we don't even know what the actual cost of instead of Chychrun would have been is one of them, time will shine some light on that I suppose, but if your going to be critical (not specifically refering to you here) you should be fair in the criticisms and acknowledge the successes.

Some people are going way to far one way, and other people way to far the other. Truth lies in the middle ground imo.

This is the right perspective, and one I share.

But with that said, it's not uncommon for a team to need a management and coaching change to successfully transition from rebuilding to contending.

Dave Tallon and Denis Savard put a lot of the building blocks in place in Chicago, but Bowman and Quenneville came in and finished the job.

A GM doesn't need to be an unmitigated disaster to justify a team moving on from them.

 

[Micklebot]

This is the right perspective, and one I share.

But with that said, it's not uncommon for a team to need a management and coaching change to successfully transition from rebuilding to contending.

Dave Tallon and Denis Savard put a lot of the building blocks in place in Chicago, but Bowman and Quenneville came in and finished the job.

A GM doesn't need to be an unmitigated disaster to justify a team moving on from them.

I don't disagree, you can add Murray/Babcock Burke/Carlyle as another example.

I'm not adverse to moving on from Dorion for the right guy, I also don't think it needs to happen asap as some do.

 

[JaredCowen4Norris]

"Building a D core is easy", yet Dubas has failed to do it.
"Signing RFAs is easy", yet Dubas has failed to do it.

Yet, people here are still trying to argue that Dubas is better than Dorion.

It's hard to compare what the Leafs did with their RFAs vs. the Sens though.

Marner was coming of a 94 point season where he led the team in scoring when he got his extension. They could have tried to sign Marner earlier, but he was still coming off back to back 60 point seasons. Matthews was in the middle of his third straight 30+ goal season, including a 40 goal rookie season. They were going to have to pay him big money either way. No excuse on the term on Matthews contract though. Walking him to free agency was bad.

Brady was coming off two straight ~45 point seasons. Stutzle was coming off 29 & 58 point seasons. While points don't drive everything around contract extensions, Stutzle and Tkachuk didn't really have negotiating power to be demanding +$9 mil on their extensions. Had they put up similar results to Matthews and Marner during ELC seasons, we wouldn't have gotten them to extend at their current price tags.

I'd say getting Stutzle to sign before this season was a big win for Dorion though. It's what Dubas should have done with Marner, though he may have tried to sign him earlier but Marner chose to bet on himself. If we had waited on Stutzle, he probably would have gotten a contract closer to Marner/Matthews territory.

Can't really say one GM did better than the other without context. If anything, we were saved from contract hell by the team being very bad during our stars ELCs. I guess we can call that a win for Dorion? lol

 

[SlapJack]

John Marino was available in the summer for a 2nd round pick + prospect.

Is Jake Chychrun better than John Marino? Yes.

But would the "rebuild" be in better shape if we had John Marino + a 1st in 2023 instead of Jake Chychrun and a 2nd in 2023?

Potentially.

The idea that this rebuild has been perfectly executed, like you seem to believe, is baffling. There's been a lot of good. And a lot of bad. Which is why we are where we are. A team with potential but no sure bet to make the playoffs next year, or the year after.

Outside of the Ottawa market, the perception of Ottawa's future from impartial observers, compared to other NHL teams, is not nearly as rosy.

And with all that said, for new owners, the past won't matter that much when it comes to Dorion and DJ. They won't dwell on whether it was smart to bring in Eric Gudbranson for 1 season.

The question they, and their advisors, will ask is, "Are these the two who will take this team from meaningful games to Stanley Cup contention?"

I would bet that the consensus will be, in the words of Daniel Alfredsson, "probably not."

Just because John Marino cost what he did doesn't mean it could've been a trade possibility with Ottawa. Maybe Pittsburgh really liked Ty Smith. Maybe Marino had no interest coming here and Rutherford took that into consideration.

Ottawa is also in a better position right now having Chychrun then Marino. Having a first would be nice but that's the price to get a difference maker over someone who's just reliable.

 

[swiftwin]

I don't disagree, you can add Murray/Babcock Burke/Carlyle as another example.

I'm not adverse to moving on from Dorion for the right guy, I also don't think it needs to happen asap as some do.

Exactly.

No point in changing things just for the sake of changing things when things are clearly trending in the right direction. Saying "other teams often change management when transitioning from rebuilding to contending" is not a really strong argument. Neither is "Dorion didn't bat at 1.000".

Just look at the Avs. They still have the same coach and GM that had that atrocious 48pt season in 2017.

I'm not opposed to moving on from Dorion if it's for the right GM to come in. I'm just opposed to change for the sake of change. Doesn't make any sense.

 

[DaveMatthew]

You keep making these bizarre unsubstantiated claims.

There absolutely is quite a bit of buzz about the team and the future this core has. Giroux brought it up unprompted. Chychrun's agent also brought it up, and even went as far to say that Chychrun blocked a trade to a different team because he wanted to come to Ottawa. The agent then said that around the league, among impartial observers, there's a ton of buzz.

I never said the rebuild was perfectly executed. No GM in the league bats a 1.000. But the job Dorion has done with the rebuild has been excellent.

When advisors look at the team, they will see a GM that has assembled a great young core, and locked most of it down with fantastic contracts. Plus, most of his best moves have been done in the past year or two, proving his ability to make good moves to bring the team from meaningful games to Stanley Cup contention.

Like you said, they won't nit pick the hole fillers and the Gudbransons of the world that Dorion brought in during the depths of the rebuild.

It painfully obvious that you and the anti-Dorion crowd don't want to admit you were wrong all these years, and are contorting yourselves with mental gymnastics instead.

You mean two players we had just signed or acquired said nice things about the organization when asked? OH MY GOD HALT THE PRESSES!

I won't even get into the bolded comment. We finished 7 points out of the playoffs, and there's no certainty that Debrincat will be here past July. So let's hold off on that.

Like @Micklebot said, there have been some good moves, no doubt. There have been some bad. We're in a decent spot, but there's a ton of work to do. Just like in Buffalo.

Dorion and DJ have certainly not cemented themselves as the guys to get this franchise over the hump.

What I do find funny, though, is how quickly the posters who preach patience with Ottawa's management, and who always say "they're in the NHL and you're not", will shit on every other team, executive and coach in the NHL.

I bet the same people who praise DJ Smith every day will rip into Paul Maurice or Bruce Cassidy if the Panthers or Knights get off to a bad start next season.

 

[swiftwin]

It's hard to compare what the Leafs did with their RFAs vs. the Sens though.

Marner was coming of a 94 point season where he led the team in scoring when he got his extension. They could have tried to sign Marner earlier, but he was still coming off back to back 60 point seasons. Matthews was in the middle of his third straight 30+ goal season, including a 40 goal rookie season. They were going to have to pay him big money either way. No excuse on the term on Matthews contract though. Walking him to free agency was bad.

Brady was coming off two straight ~45 point seasons. Stutzle was coming off 29 & 58 point seasons. While points don't drive everything around contract extensions, Stutzle and Tkachuk didn't really have negotiating power to be demanding +$9 mil on their extensions. Had they put up similar results to Matthews and Marner during ELC seasons, we wouldn't have gotten them to extend at their current price tags.

I'd say getting Stutzle to sign before this season was a big win for Dorion though. It's what Dubas should have done with Marner, though he may have tried to sign him earlier but Marner chose to bet on himself. If we had waited on Stutzle, he probably would have gotten a contract closer to Marner/Matthews territory.

Can't really say one GM did better than the other without context. If anything, we were saved from contract hell by the team being very bad during our stars ELCs. I guess we can call that a win for Dorion? lol

You're missing the most important part of Dorion's negotiation with his RFAs. It's the term, not the AAV. That was the whole reason for Tkachuk missing training camp that year. Dorion absolutely wanted the term, and stuck to his guns. It will pay off HUGE in a few years when they're in their prime, making peanuts, especially if/when the cap goes up.

 

[Golden_Jet]

It's hard to compare what the Leafs did with their RFAs vs. the Sens though.

Marner was coming of a 94 point season where he led the team in scoring when he got his extension. They could have tried to sign Marner earlier, but he was still coming off back to back 60 point seasons. Matthews was in the middle of his third straight 30+ goal season, including a 40 goal rookie season. They were going to have to pay him big money either way. No excuse on the term on Matthews contract though. Walking him to free agency was bad.

Brady was coming off two straight ~45 point seasons. Stutzle was coming off 29 & 58 point seasons. While points don't drive everything around contract extensions, Stutzle and Tkachuk didn't really have negotiating power to be demanding +$9 mil on their extensions. Had they put up similar results to Matthews and Marner during ELC seasons, we wouldn't have gotten them to extend at their current price tags.

I'd say getting Stutzle to sign before this season was a big win for Dorion though. It's what Dubas should have done with Marner, though he may have tried to sign him earlier but Marner chose to bet on himself. If we had waited on Stutzle, he probably would have gotten a contract closer to Marner/Matthews territory.

Can't really say one GM did better than the other without context. If anything, we were saved from contract hell by the team being very bad during our stars ELCs. I guess we can call that a win for Dorion? lol

Don’t forget Stützle also had a 56 game season in there. PD didn’t sign them to 5 or 6 year deals at top money, like KD did.

 

[Puikiou]

Unbelievable. The guy who:

1. Inherited a core of young Karlsson, Zibanejad, Stone, Chabot, Hoffman, Turris, MacArthur, Methot, Ryan, Pageau, Ceci, White, Lazar, full sleeve of draft picks, etc.

2. Whose very first move was to trade an improving Zibanejad + 2nd for Brassard. The third best player on a line with Zuccarello and Nash.

3. Has been and still is weirdly fixated on archaic, unplayable grit.

4. Couldn't scout at the professional level if his life depended on it.

5. Traded a high 2nd round pick and wasted money for the corpse of Derek Stepan as his solution for a top 6 center... Anisimov before that.

6. Traded assets and/or wasted money on the corpses of Oduya, Coburn, Gudbransson, Del Zotto, J. Brown, Zaitsev, etc. as his solutions on D.

7. Wasted assets and/or money on Condons, Hammonds and Murrays as his solutions in goal.

8. Who gifted Byram and Girard to Colorado for meaningless games of Duchene (and Thomson in the AHL).

9. Just recently traded the most decorated and technically sound goaltender in the system for the corpse of Cam Talbot. Despite the travesty that was his first trade and despite say young goaltender being the best NHL performer on the roster the previous season.

9. Recently traded a 7th overall draft pick ++ for a diminutive LW, Kane-dependant scorer without a contingency plan regarding an extension. Despite being taken to the cleaners when previously put in a similar situation with a prime, expiring RFA contract Mark Stone to trade.

10. Through it all, has failed to deliver a truly meaningful game at the turn of any given calendar year for the past 6 seasons (let's face it, we were eliminated in November again this year). Let alone the playoff appearance. Mercy rule here at 10.

THAT'S guy some of you are willing to die on an hill for. A glorified scout.

Yes, by and large, the core looks good (despite some glaring holes on the roster still). But that has more to do with the sheer amount of assets Dorion had to waste to begin with. The real loss here is and always was Bryan Murray. He assembled the foundation Dorion has desperately tried and failed to ruin. RIP Bryan.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Going to the ECF is tanking now? This is only our 6th season missing the playoffs, not 7th,

Had we been better sooner we wouldn't save Sanderson, for example, we may not have had the asset to acquire Chychrun since our pick wouldn't project as high.

There were a lot of hurdles along the way, you of course know about them, you know about the situation with Karlsson and Hoffman absolutely tanking Hoffman's value, you know about how Melnyk was trying to attach Ryan's contract to any Karlsson deal, you know that every deal was financially driven, you know all this and yet you still try to spin 6 years into 7, so I really don't see the point in trying to convince you of anything, your mind is set, no facts will sway you.

Math is still hard I see

6 or 7, what does it change? Just one year. Not really the important part of the argument.

 

[Knave]

only our 6th, lmao

 

[swiftwin]

6 or 7, what does it change? Just one year. Not really the important part of the argument.

Lmao. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you keep making these dishonest arguments all the time.

We already beat the 6 vs 7 years argument to death a few weeks ago, yet you keep coming back to this.

 

[Micklebot]

6 or 7, what does it change? Just one year. Not really the important part of the argument.

What matters is a pattern of misrepresentation, if you can't manage to get simple facts right despite having been called out on it in the past, it ceases to be a simple mistake.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

only our 6th, lmao

Let's give him 6 more though. We went from being the worse to being 12th worse. Progress!

 

[swiftwin]

Unbelievable. The guy who:

1. Inherited a core of young Karlsson, Zibanejad, Stone, Chabot, Hoffman, Turris, MacArthur, Methot, Ryan, Pageau, Ceci, White, Lazar, full sleeve of draft picks, etc.

2. Whose very first move was to trade an improving Zibanejad + 2nd for Brassard. The third best player on a line with Zuccarello and Nash.

3. Has been and still is weirdly fixated on archaic, unplayable grit.

4. Couldn't scout at the professional level if his life depended on it.

5. Traded a high 2nd round pick and wasted money for the corpse of Derek Stepan as his solution for a top 6 center... Anisimov before that.

6. Traded assets and/or wasted money on the corpses of Oduya, Coburn, Gudbransson, Del Zotto, J. Brown, Zaitsev, etc. as his solutions on D.

7. Wasted assets and/or money on Condons, Hammonds and Murrays as his solutions in goal.

8. Who gifted Byram and Girard to Colorado for meaningless games of Duchene (and Thomson in the AHL).

9. Just recently traded the most decorated and technically sound goaltender in the system for the corpse of Cam Talbot. Despite the travesty that was his first trade and despite say young goaltender being the best NHL performer on the roster the previous season.

9. Recently traded a 7th overall draft pick ++ for a diminutive LW, Kane-dependant scorer without a contingency plan regarding an extension. Despite being taken to the cleaners when previously put in a similar situation with a prime, expiring RFA contract Mark Stone to trade.

10. Through it all, has failed to deliver a truly meaningful game at the turn of any given calendar year for the past 6 seasons (let's face it, we were eliminated in November again this year). Let alone the playoff appearance. Mercy rule here at 10.

THAT'S guy some of you are willing to die on an hill for. A glorified scout.

Yes, by and large, the core looks good (despite some glaring holes on the roster still). But that has more to do with the sheer amount of assets Dorion had to waste to begin with. The real loss here is and always was Bryan Murray. He assembled the foundation Dorion has desperately tried and failed to ruin. RIP Bryan.

So you admit we have a good young core with a bright future?

But you're going to nit pick that we lost some draft picks in the process? That's the hill you're willing to die on?

 

[DaveMatthew]

So you admit we have a good young core with a bright future?

But you're going to nit pick that we lost some draft picks in the process? That's the hill you're willing to die on?

Toronto has a good young core, a bright future, and you're shitting all over the GM they just let go, nit-picking about minor trades and draft picks. They've averaged what, 106 pts/season over the last 5 years? And their top 3 players still have not hit their "primes".

Montreal has a good young core and future. So does Buffalo. So does Detroit. So does Columbus. So will Arizona as soon as they draft Connor Bedard.

Building a promising young core that the internet likes isn't the challenge. Winning something is.

 

[Golden_Jet]

6 or 7, what does it change? Just one year. Not really the important part of the argument.

It shows your never endless messing up, Don’t think it’s accidental anymore, if it ever was.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Lmao. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you keep making these dishonest arguments all the time.

We already beat the 6 vs 7 years argument to death a few weeks ago, yet you keep coming back to this.

What matters is a pattern of misrepresentation, if you can't manage to get simple facts right despite having been called out on it in the past, it ceases to be a simple mistake.

It's because I was calling out the 2017 team that went to the ecf for being poorly constructed and carried by one generational player thus the 2018 team, when that one player got injured to me was a bottom dweller. Not to mention the year before that run we had drafted 1 spot from the bottom 10.

2017 was a mirage because of one player, not because Dorion is a good GM.

6,6.5,7 years it is all up to interpretation and again not really that important.

 

[Golden_Jet]

It's because I was calling out the 2017 team that went to the ecf for being poorly constructed and carried by one generational player thus the 2018 team, when that one player got injured to me was a bottom dweller. Not to mention the year before that run we had drafted 1 spot from the bottom 10.

2017 was a mirage because of one player, not because Dorion is a good GM.

6,6.5,7 years it is all up to interpretation and again not really that important.

Nope the argument is 5, and 5.5

 

[Knave]

It's baffling people defend Dorion's record.

6 straight years of missing the playoffs. That ranks him among elite GMs like Milbury and MacLean.

It is long past time for change. I don't hate the guy. I don't wish him ill. He has failed to make a competitive team on a budget in Ottawa. He has failed to make a competitive team without a budget for the 2022-2023 season.

Next.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Oh shit Spezza resigned.

Dubas, Spezza, Alfredsson as the next management group?

0_0

 

[Adele Dazeem]

No to Dubas and Spezza.
Yes to someone new in the GM position along with Alfie as POHO