Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Senscore]

Well I'm sure we can offer him a bus pass and some filled up McDonald's coffee sticker cards.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Chabot
Chychrun
Sanderson
Zub

vs

Rielly
Brodie
Holl
McCabe

C'mon man......

Once again, I think you're giving credit to Dorion for drafting when it's been Mann's responsibility, and he's said as much.

Dorion has been basically running a one-man show. Just had a lawyer AGM McTavish to help with contracts but his hands were full with hiring people, making acquisitions via trade and signings, etc...

In addition to that, it's not exactly fair to add a top 5 pick like Sanderson to our list when under Dubas the Leafs have never missed the post-season and have normally been picking in the bottom 1/3 of the 1st.

When he took over the Leafs their D core consisted of Rielly, Gardiner, Zaitsev, Hainsey, Dermott, Polak and Borgmann.

Dubas, to his credit, in recent years has added Muzzin, Brodie, Giodano, McCabe, Timmins, Schenn to the Leafs blueline.

He's done a good job filling out the D behind Rielly.

 

[swiftwin]

My point is that if you give a monkey high picks to draft, and to throw around to acquire unhappy d on tanking teams, and mark stones to trade and the good fortune of picking high enough to get a Sanderson.

You would have a good d-core. There is so much talent in the league, coming in and moving around that building a good d core is not as hard as Dorion has made it look.

"Building a D core is easy", yet Dubas has failed to do it.
"Signing RFAs is easy", yet Dubas has failed to do it.

Yet, people here are still trying to argue that Dubas is better than Dorion.

 

[bicboi64]

Shackles are off. That's definitely part of it,

But, we were trying to be competitive for maybe 3 seasons?

Year 1, we went to the ECF, the group of Karlsson, Methot, Phaneuf, Ceci, Boro, and Wideman may not have been the best, but it was competitive. That said, Dorion didn't really build it.

Year 2, collapse started, Methot gone had to replace him with a budget piece in Oduya, certainly not an unrestricted addition, Melnyk likely pulling the purse strings. Half way through that season, the train was off the rails and we were no longer looking to be competitive, start of the rebuild.

Year 3, selling off.

Year 4, still selling off

Year 5, Start to try (signed Dadonov)

Year 6, developing internally while dealing with some miscues (Murray and Dadonov)

Year 7, Meaningful games target.

The problem is you need to take into account what the team is trying to accomplish, and base your evaluation on the actual goal they are trying to achieve.

Oh no, we had a terrible D in years we wanted to draft high... sort of party of the game plan there...

The issue is, there were opportunities to still keep quality defenders. DeMelo comes to mind. Instead, Dorion thought Zaitsev was a good gamble. He thought Hamonic was a viable option for the top 4 for a team that needed to push forward. Heck, even the timing of Chychrun was poor. Using the 7th overall for Chychrun would've been more beneficial to us at the start of the season. When it comes to D, Dorion lets good players go and gambles on bad ones.

 

[Hale The Villain]

"Building a D core is easy", yet Dubas has failed to do it.
"Signing RFAs is easy", yet Dubas has failed to do it.

Yet, people here are still trying to argue that Dubas has failed to do those things, while Dorion has succeded.

The Leafs gave up the 5th least amount of goals of any team in the league last season.

The Sens were around the middle of the pack as a comparison.

What makes you think he failed to build the defense?

 

[bicboi64]

Was he playing with a torn labrum the entire time he was with us? And why are you saying that Brassard was better then? In the NYR series Zibanejad was their best forward easy.

The Zibanejad + 2nd for Brassard is one of the worst trades in NHL history. Analyzed through any angle it horrific.

Zibby literally produced at a higher rate than Brassard in the playoffs and season.

The idea that Brass was better than Zibby in the playoffs doesn't make sense.

 

[HSF]

lots to unpack here. Sounds like Dubas was shooting for the moon to be worth it to return. Its clear there is an issue between Dubas and Shanny. Shanny stopped appearing with Dubas in the press box in games and also during any pressers

From what insiders like Chris Johnston and Elliott have said is that Toronto decided to bring back Kyle after they beat Tampa in the first round. It seems like everyone was surprised how Dubas during his end of year presser opened the door to not returning. I suspect this is where things started to break down. Dubas also did say he would only return to Toronto or not at all but I wonder if asking for the moon means he wants to be a president somewher or he wanted them to say no so that he goes elsewhere

 

[swiftwin]

The Leafs gave up the 5th least amount of goals of any team in the league last season.

The Sens were around the middle of the pack as a comparison.

What makes you think he failed to build the defense?

Are you going to argue that

Rielly
Brodie
Holl
McCabe

Is better than

Chabot
Chychrun
Sanderson
Zub

 

[Hale The Villain]

Are you going to argue that

Rielly
Brodie
Holl
McCabe

Is better than

Chabot
Chychrun
Sanderson
Zub

What in the strawman?

 

[DaveMatthew]

Much like Dorion, Dubas made some good moves and some bad moves during his tenure. But he ultimately failed at his goal - in 5 years the team didn't get past the 2nd round. Dorion has also failed at his goal - in 6 years the team hasn't gotten into the playoffs.

No need to compare move to move because it's as simple as that. They had different objectives based on where their teams were, and neither has gotten it done.

I expect Dorion to quickly be ousted when ownership takes over, for that reason.

With that said, I think Dubas will be a candidate for a President's role sooner than later. Disregarding the hockey moves, he's clearly a smart and well-spoken executive who treats people the right way and can align an organization. He's straight out of central casting for who million-dollar organizations want in their C-suite.

Dorion will find another opportunity as well, but one that matches his strengths in amateur scouting.

 

[swiftwin]

What in the strawman?

We are arguing who is better at building a D core. I presented to you the top 4 defensemen of both teams.

That's not a strawman. You're the one trying to introduce strawmen.

 

[HSF]

We are arguing who is better at building a D core. I presented to you the top 4 defensemen of both teams.

That's not a strawman. You're the one trying to introduce strawmen.

I mean if Toronto had cap space and high picks they would have been all over Chychrun

 

[swiftwin]

I mean if Toronto had cap space and high picks they would have been all over Chychrun

...and why exactly did Toronto not have the cap space?

Not being able to properly allocate the cap to build a D core is part of building a D core.

 

[DaveMatthew]

...and why exactly did Toronto not have the cap space?

Not being able to properly allocate the cap to build a D core is part of building a D core.

Why doesn't everyone just agree that both Dubas and Dorion have been, at the end of the day, bad GMs? They've had different goals, but they've both failed. Pretty brutally.

One 2nd round game win in 5 years is brutal. High-fives because of "meaningful games" when you finish 7 pts out of a wildcard spot after 6 years is brutal.

Dubas is now out in Toronto, and I expect Dorion to follow pretty quickly.

Both of them may be more successful in their next gig. People learn and take those learnings to new jobs. Sometimes a fresh start is what you need.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Reading Twitter about the Leafs GM situation is fascinating.

Everybody wants Eric Tulsky. "Look at how great Carolina is!" But if it was Don Waddell who was available, the actual GM of the Canes, I guarantee those same people would have no interest in him. "We don't need a dinosaur who's been in the league for 30 years."

Kind of the same thing with the perception of Dubas. "Forward-thinking, didn't deserve to be let go, look at the regular season success." But if it was Shanahan who was let go today, I don't think he'd be getting the same benefit of doubt.

Funny how being perceived as "young and new" makes such a difference.

If I'm the Leafs (or Sens), I'm backing a Brinks truck at Jim Nill's house and trying to convince him to come to Canada. He's got 1 year left on his Dallas deal and could be swayed for a new challenge.

 

[swiftwin]

Why doesn't everyone just agree that both Dubas and Dorion have been, at the end of the day, bad GMs? They've had different goals, but they've both failed.

By what metric? The one you just made up?

The whole point of a rebuild is to build a good young core of players with a solid salary structure. Dorion has absolutely done that successfully. The results will come.

Last season was the first real season the team made a push, which was obviously hampered by losing the #1C right off the bat and having to rely of 5th and 6th string goalies at the most critical point of the season.

I know you know this is a good core with a fantastic future ahead. You're just trying to get your last shots in while you can. Even if Dorion gets canned this offseason (which quite frankly, I don't care if he does), this is still his team and the team he built.

 

[DaveMatthew]

By what metric? The one you just made up?

The whole point of a rebuild is to build a good young core of players with a solid salary structure. Dorion has absolutely done that successfully. The results will come.

Last season was the first real season the team made a push, which was obviously hampered by losing the #1C right off the bat and having to rely of 5th and 6th string goalies at the most critical point of the season.

I know you know this is a good core with a fantastic future ahead. You're just trying to get your last shots in while you can. Even if Dorion gets canned this offseason (which quite frankly, I don't care if he does), this is still his team and the team he built.

By the metrics of:

For Dubas: winning playoff rounds
For Dorion: making the playoffs

I think this is a good core with a promising future ahead, yes. We could have made the playoffs if Norris didn't get hurt. We could be a perennial playoff team for years to come. That wouldn't surprise me.
I think the Leafs were a very good team, with a ton of talent. They could easily be in the ECF if they got a couple of bounces against the Panthers. They could make 2 finals in the next 3 years. That wouldn't surprise me.

But they didn't get the bounces this year. And we didn't make the playoffs this year.

Results are what matter.

Oh and if the Leafs win the cup next year, which they could, it'll be the team that "Dubas built" too. Yet you have no issue taking shots at him.

Weird.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Well I'm sure we can offer him a bus pass and some filled up McDonald's coffee sticker cards.

Can go as far as use of the Team 2014 CRV.

 

[swiftwin]

By the metrics of:

For Dubas: winning playoff rounds
For Dorion: making the playoffs

I think this is a good core with a promising future ahead, yes. We could have made the playoffs in Norris didn't get hurt.
I think the Leafs were a very good team, with a ton of talent. They could easily be in the ECF if they got a couple of bounces against the Panthers.

But they didn't get the bounces. And we didn't make the playoffs.

Results are what matter.

Okay, and for how many seasons were the Leafs seriously trying to win a playoff series? (Dubas' entire tenure)
And for how many seasons were the Sens seriously trying to make the playoffs? (I would argue one season, the most recent one)

 

[DaveMatthew]

Okay, and for how many seasons were the Leafs seriously trying to win a playoff series? (Dubas' entire tenure)
And for how many seasons were the Sens seriously trying to make the playoffs? (I would argue one season, the most recent one)

Ottawa started trying to make the playoffs as soon they signed Matt Murray to a 4 year $25M contract.

That move just blew up spectacularly and set the team back multiple seasons.

 

[Cosmix]

Now Kyle Dubas is available. Should we sign him as the new GM? We could and have done worse!

 

[swiftwin]

Ottawa started trying to make the playoffs as soon they signed Matt Murray to a 4 year $25M contract.

That move just blew up spectacularly and set the team back multiple seasons.

Even if you believe this (which is hilarious), that's still only 3 seasons, compared to 5 seasons Dubas got to try to win a playoff round.

 

[Cosmix]

Ottawa started trying to make the playoffs as soon they signed Matt Murray to a 4 year $25M contract.

That move just blew up spectacularly and set the team back multiple seasons.

Murray's signing was a definitely a mis-step but it did not set the team back multiple seasons.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Okay, and for how many seasons were the Leafs seriously trying to win a playoff series? (Dubas' entire tenure)
And for how many seasons were the Sens seriously trying to make the playoffs? (I would argue one season, the most recent one)

Oh and when Dubas took over, Matthews was 20, Marner was 21, Nylander was 22 and Rielly was 24.

That core was trying, and expected, to win playoff rounds but ours is still too young and we shouldn't expect them to even make the playoffs?

Murray's signing was a definitely a mis-step but it did not set the team back multiple seasons.

A budget team having a $6.25 anchor who couldn't stop a puck and was a constant distraction definitely set the team back multiple seasons.

With solid goaltending, we could have played "meaningful games" several years ago.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Now Kyle Dubas is available. Should we sign him as the new GM? We could and have done worse!